Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

[Kreistor]

I'm wondering if 509 doesn't give us some insight into Kubota's stats. Is Qarr a familiar, making Kubota a sorcerer or wizard?

Maybe, but I'm guessing no since we've seen no spellcasting from him. He could be hiding an "evil" power source like a Warlock, but with the Japanese theme, Shugenja or Wujen seems more likely, and those aren't inherently evil.

Is Kubota a thaumaturgist and Qarr is Kubota's Planar Cohort?

I don't think I'm familiar enough with that one to comment, but I'd bet "Maybe".

Is Qarr just a regular ol' cohort?

Maybe.

And how does an imp charm all those monsters? Imps can only cast suggestion 1/day and cannot gain class levels. Maybe Qarr is not an imp but some home-brewed fiend.

I have suggested elsewhere that since Sabine has non-standard abilities for a Succubus that the Ginat may assign different abilities to his Outsiders to prevent metagaming. The creature may also have class levels. Regardless, the creature has Telepathy and Charm Monster at the very least.

[Kurald Galain]

And how does an imp charm all those monsters? Imps can only cast suggestion 1/day and cannot gain class levels. Maybe Qarr is not an imp but some home-brewed fiend.

I thought imps were smaller than that?

Could he perhaps have a feat of some sort that lets him use his innate ability more times per day?

[OmegaDonut]

I know they're not the same continuity, but can we consider the Dragon Magazine comics here? Looking over some the scans I have, I see that

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V gets the Maximize Spell feat and Durkon has a Dex penalty.

[Amon Star]

On another note, Zz'dtri appears to be a transmutation specialist, since he cast six Fly spells in one day (one each on himself, V, Haley, and Sabine, to reach the Air Sigil, and one each on himself and Thog, when they were escaping the Order). Two bonus third-level spells would require an Int of 24, implausibly high at that level, so that's probably one bonus from Int and one from specialization. He could also be a sorcerer or some other class, but Nale introduces him as "our wizard".

That would make a lot of sense, as Zz'dtri's was 's opposite & e's an Invoker. As for why simply said wizard, well, that's what Ears is introduced as. Also, probably isn't that anal.

Maybe, but I'm guessing no since we've seen no spellcasting from him. He could be hiding an "evil" power source like a Warlock, but with the Japanese theme, Shugenja or Wujen seems more likely, and those aren't inherently evil.

What is this Japan you speak of? From what we've seen, Azure City uses the standard classes & just changes the flavour a little.

I know they're not the same continuity, but can we consider the Dragon Magazine comics here?

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Looking over some the scans I have, I see that V gets the Maximize Spell feat and Durkon has a Dex penalty.

According to this, They may well be in the same continuity. Therefore, I don't see why not. However, it would be best if you put them in spoilers.

[Kreistor]

What is this Japan you speak of? From what we've seen, Azure City uses the standard classes & just changes the flavour a little.

A Japanese theme doesn't mean it is Japan. It's just got a Japanese style to it. Do we know that Ninja are really Rogues? That Miko wasn't a Samurai by class does not demand that no one has the Samurai class.

[OmegaDonut]

According to this, They may well be in the same continuity. Therefore, I don't see why not. However, it would be best if you put them in spoilers.

Ah, good idea. Consider it spoilered! (You may want to edit your post.)

[Chrismith]

I second the idea of including the Dragon strips as canon (though maybe they should be in spoiler tags?).

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In addition to Durkon's dex penalty and V's Maximize Spell feat, we also know that V has ranks in Decipher Script and that Belkar's strength is less than 18 (but possibly, depending on interpretation, greater than or equal to 15).

[Wrecan]

Meh. The title of the tread has [spoiler] in it already. If we agree to iclude Dragon magazine stuff, we should just include it.

[Kimpire]

I second the idea of including the Dragon strips as canon (though maybe they should be in spoiler tags?).

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In addition to Durkon's dex penalty and V's Maximize Spell feat, we also know that V has ranks in Decipher Script and that Belkar's strength is less than 18 (but possibly, depending on interpretation, greater than or equal to 15).

From OOTOPCs, p. 52:

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Next you'll tell me that cleaning your kitchen improved your Decipher Script ranking.
Hey, it might! You haven't seen some of the things growing in my kitchen, I wouldn't put language skills past them.

We may learn two things from this.

1) Yes, V was being sarcastic, and though Haley agreed immediately, it was also sarcastic. So I suggest we discuss putting in Decipher Script for Haley as well. It can be read either way.

2) Haley has a kitchen.

[Mc. Lovin']

2) Haley has a kitchen.

So, we should put a kitchen in her inventory?

[Kimpire]

So, we should put a kitchen in her inventory?

I was kidding

[Kaelaroth]

So, we should put a kitchen in her inventory?

I don't see why not. Wht would be the weight of that thing? Could she fit it in one bag of holding?

[Amon Star]

A Japanese theme doesn't mean it is Japan. It's just got a Japanese style to it. Do we know that Ninja are really Rogues? That Miko wasn't a Samurai by class does not demand that no one has the Samurai class.

You make a good point about Ninjas. There is a chance that Ninja school is just a rogue school, with maybe a prestige class or two attached to it. However, as shown here, the waitress & trainee Ninja says that her dodging ability comes from her training. Now, Rogue doesn't give bonuses to AC, but Ninja does.

What does everyone else think?

Ah, good idea. Consider it spoilered! (You may want to edit your post.)

Done.

I don't see why not. Wht would be the weight of that thing? Could she fit it in one bag of holding?

I agree. Every competent Rogue knows to carry everything, INCLUDING the Kitchen Sink!

Yes, I know that was terrible.

[Tempest Fennac]

I assumed that the Ninjas had levels in the class of the same name, and I'm assuming that at least a few of the Samarais who were mentioned had lvels in that class due to Elan assuming that Miko had Samarai levels due to that also being her social rank. Admittedly, no other OA classes have appeared in the comic, so there is a possibility that all Samarais have ranks in other classes.

[Chronos]

Ninja definitely exist as a class. If they were just rogues who liked to sneak around and totally flip out and kill people, then Monkey wouldn't have to have specifically included ninja in the creation, since rogues were (presumably) already included. And the great abundance of ninja we've seen, including many insignificant mooks, suggests that it's a base class, not a PrC.

[Kreistor]

Well, I just ran through all the strips with Therkla, and I can't find anything that suggests she has anything from the Ninja class. No Ghost Step, etc. I can see some small suggestion in 506.1.2 that she has Hide in Plain Sight, but that's not a Ninja class ability.

Further, we don't see her attacking the troll in 506. She flanks, bt doesn't deal damage. A rogue would get Sneak Attack in this situation, but a Ninja would not get Sudden Strike. Elan deals the death blow, so there's no conclusion to be drawn.

BTW, the Hide in Plain Sight thing... you must have Cover or Concealment to Hide. The moment you step out, you are visible and you do not get a Hide check. There is no facing in 3.0 and 3.5 (even though the Giant portrays facing, it is not in the game rules), so there is no Spot check necessary to see her when she is standing there like that: she is automatically seen. Hinjo must see her, unless she has Hide in Plain Sight; however, this has been an ability for all classes from the start of the comic. Comic 3 is all about Spot and Hide, and the "Ninja" there don't have Cover or Concealment either. So I don't think it's appropriate to draw a conclusion that Therkla has HiPS. This may simply be a limitation of the Giant in terms of how much stuff he can clutter the scene with. The chosen medium is a little inadequate to portray this ability.

[Kurald Galain]

Well, I just ran through all the strips with Therkla, and I can't find anything that suggests she has anything from the Ninja class. No Ghost Step, etc. I can see some small suggestion in 506.1.2 that she has Hide in Plain Sight, but that's not a Ninja class ability.

As I recall, the "signature" ninja ability is not HIPS, but constantly taking ten on their Hide checks, regardless of what they're doing at the time. Indeed, any Ninja in OOTS so far has been hard to spot whatever he was doing.

[Kreistor]

As I recall, the "signature" ninja ability is not HIPS, but constantly taking ten on their Hide checks, regardless of what they're doing at the time. Indeed, any Ninja in OOTS so far has been hard to spot whatever he was doing.

Even taking 10, you still need concealment or cover to hide behind. Standing in the open does not allow a check without HiPS.

The Ninja class does not allow for Taking 10 from a class ability. Rogues can choose that as a Special Ability through Skill Mastery at level 10, but I highly doubt Belkar and co. are facing that many L10 rogues in strip 003.

[Kurald Galain]

Even taking 10, you still need concealment or cover to hide behind. Standing in the open does not allow a check without HiPS.

Well, I was quoting that from memory, but I was not talking about the Ninja base class in the Oriental Adventurer's book. As I recall, there was a roguish prestige class in 3.0 that had a ninja-related name, and did give this as its earliest ability. Hence the joke in comic #3, where there are many Ninja but none of them fail their hide check, because they're taking ten.

[RMS Oceanic]

Do we know enough about Cloister to have a stab at defining it now?

The way I see it, Cloister is an Epic Level Abjuration Spell, probably requiring ranks in Knowledge(Arcana), that blocks all non-epic forms of magical divination or communication between the inside and outside of the spell boundry. Only an epic level divination spell, or an epic artifact like the celestial scrying pool, can pierce it.

Sounds right?

[Kreistor]

Xykon placed a circlet on his head just before using that ability. Another character in fact points that out.

"Cloister" could merely be the command word to activate the magic item, not a spell. It could also be a spell, with the headgear as a Focus. We simply can't draw any conclusions.

[Tempest Fennac]

I don't know if anyone else has thought of this, but is there a possibility that Durkon is using the 4th Level substitution which is mentioned on page 28 of http://www.crystalkeep.com/d20/rules...asses-Base.pdf ? I thought I'd ask due to how it would explain his Warhammer use (I know we've never seen any evidence that he has ranks in Knowledge (Dungeoneer) and there's no evidence of him having a d10 HD, but I thought I'd mention it in case it could answer any questions about his domains, and because we know Belkar is using Halfling Barbarian substitution levels from the comic with the Green Hag who used Baleful Polymorph on V).

[Chrismith]

...we know Belkar is using Halfling Barbarian substitution levels from the comic with the Green Hag who used Baleful Polymorph on V).

Where in that comic is there anything indicating that Belkar might have substitution levels?

EDIT: Oh, I see now. He says "Halfling rage jumping attack" when he leaps. I'm pretty sure that's unrelated to any substitution levels; he's a halfling, he's raging, he's jumping -- ergo, halfling rage jumping attack. We haven't seen him actually using any abilities of any of those substitutions. I don't think there is anything in the comics as of yet that is proof of any OOTS member having substitution levels.

[Edit 2: Whoa! Sorry about the triple-post, not sure what happened there.]

[Runolfr]

Regarding "ninja" characters: should we assume they actually have levels in the Ninja class from Complete Adventurer/Oriental Adventures? Or are they just rogue/fighters who call themselves Ninjas (much as Miko was a monk/paladin who called herself a Samurai)?

[Kurald Galain]

I thought I'd ask due to how it would explain his Warhammer use

There's this feat called Somatic Weaponry.

Also, he tends to cast most of his spells without weapons in hand, with the notable exception of Thor's Lightning (which may have a hammer as a focus) and Thor's Might (ditto).

[Tempest Fennac]

Actually, "Hafling Rage" is the name of an ability which Halfling Barbarians can use instead of the normal rage (the Halfling is trated as a medium creature if it would be beneficial, but they lose the +1AC onus from their small size). Also, he only had 1 Barbarian level at the time, so he wouldn't have learnt the Intimidating Presence ability at that point. What does Somatic Weaponry do?

[Chronos]

What does Somatic Weaponry do?

It lets you cast spells while holding a weapon. But I think the issue with the warhammer is proficiency, not spellcasting. He could have spent a feat on it (the standard cleric starting packages all use a feat on their deity's preferred weapon, if necessary), but it's simpler if he didn't have to.

[EphU437]

I don't understand how #434 shows Xykon to be level 20+?

[Chronos]

I don't know, either... 442 implies a level of 20+ (I'm what, seven levels higher than you? Eight? More?), but is not definitive, since there's nothing that says Xykon knows what level Roy is. There is, however, definitive evidence that Xykon is at least 20 in Start of Darkness.

[Tempest Fennac]

Thanks for explaining about Somantic Weaponry. (I assumed that Durkon had got the War Domain until I read about the racial variant, and I was talking about how he used it as a weapon rather then thinking about how he used spells when weilding one).