Class and Level Geekery III (some [spoiler]s)

[Irbis]

That's what I meant. It seems pretty reasonable to me that V would have gotten a scroll of greater scrying before inventing a new spell.

Wouldn't it be Varsuuvius Greater Enchanced Scrying?

I think it's level 5th or 6th, between both Scryings, it just doesn't make sense otherwise.

[PsyBlade]

V specifically called out the name of the spell, so no.

[Wrecan]

I've added the fly and the revised estimate of Durkon's Strength

[Wrecan]

All right. Calculating Durkon's Strength...
Full plate = 50
Heavy shield = 15
Warhammer = 5
Clerical vestments = 6 (he isn't wearing them)
Spyglass = 1
Vaarsuvius = 82 (minimum)
Spellbook = 3
Component pouch = 2
TOTAL = 164

This makes Durkon's minimum Strength 14, not 13. It would have to be 14 pounds lighter for it to be a 13 minimum, so even if we assume Durkon left his vestments and spyglass in his cabin and V has Eschew Materials (which V probably does not) and left the spellbook in the cabin, 14 is still the minimum Strength.

[AKA_Bait]

I think it may be time to add Kazumi and Daigo. We know they are level six and a martial class.

Also, to harp on my V point, if those two have presumably gone up 5 levels since the Azure city battle it's not unreasonable to think that V has gone up 2. Espcially since my earlier point about scrying spells still stands. Just because V didn't name the spell V's Enhanced Greater Scrying doesn't mean that it is not higher or equal level to greater scrying and it's quite likley that V already tried the SRD scrying spells.

[Wrecan]

V mentioned that s/he didn't get XP for most of their aquatic encounters, meaning it was too low EL to warrant XP for a 13th level adventurer. But no encounter is too low EL for a 5th level adventurer going on 6th. So it makes perfect sense that Daigo and Kazumi could raise several levels without V gaining any XP.

[danneloftyr]

I also agree we need to add Kazumi and Daigo to the list of additional characters. While we do not have alot of information at this point they are obviously now important characters.

[Kurald Galain]

I think it may be time to add Kazumi and Daigo. We know they are level six and a martial class.

Perhaps both are Samurai....

That would be appropriate, at any rate. I don't think we can really tell if they're samurai, or fighters, or warriors.

Note that in the Azure City battle, several of the troops were level-5 already.

Note also that level 1 to level 6 equals 15000 XP, whereas level 13 to level 15 equals 27000 XP.

And note also that V's Enhanced Scrying does a few things that the PHB spell does not.

[Mr.Bookworm]

As I've said over in this thread, I think Kasumi and Daigo are both Warrior 4/Fighter 2.

That would give them each a CR of 5, and they've both been shown as beaten up after fighting a Scrag, which also has a CR of 5.

They were probably Warrior 4 as low-level grunts, but they probably picked up a level of Fighter during the 4 month time skip, and another just now.

EDIT: And I doubt they're Samurai, because as far as I've seen, Rich sticks to OGL/SRD material, as well as made up stuff. And the Samurai is from the Complete Warrior.

[Kurald Galain]

Wait. On second thought, they likely aren't samurai. Not because "Rich wouldn't use that class" (viz. the long discussion between Roy, Elan and Miko about why she doesn't have that class) but because if they were, they would be nobility of some sort - and Kubota has said that they're not.

Hence they're fighters, or warriors. Or both. I don't think ranger/paladin/barbarian fits them very well.

[MCerberus]

Wait. On second thought, they likely aren't samurai. Not because "Rich wouldn't use that class" (viz. the long discussion between Roy, Elan and Miko about why she doesn't have that class) but because if they were, they would be nobility of some sort - and Kubota has said that they're not.

Hence they're fighters, or warriors. Or both. I don't think ranger/paladin/barbarian fits them very well.

Well the most recent "ding" was after they were given titles of nobility, so they very well might be able to take Samurai...

also this may be an issue of "what is this Japan you speak of" where real-life and the universe are divergent.

[Porthos]

EDIT: And I doubt they're Samurai, because as far as I've seen, Rich sticks to OGL/SRD material, as well as made up stuff.

Not anymore.

An Early Mention of Non OGL Material (Ironically enough, about the Samurai Class)
A Blatant Example of Non OGL Material (Monsters from MMII, BoVD, and FF)
More Non OGL Material (Deathless Subtype - Multiple Settings)
A Somewhat More Subtle Example of Non OGL Material (Ranged Pin - Complete Warrior)

I know that a lot of this got started because of this joke. But that was indeed a joke. Rich has been mining all of DnD for material, regardless of SRD/OGL status, for a long time.

[Mr.Bookworm]

...Good point.

I forgot about all of that stuff, though I guess I should've figured it, because OotS is technically a parody, and thus protected.

I still doubt they're Samurai though, as they seem to be more Neutral Good to me. Plus, Samurai are so... meh.

[Irbis]

I think it may be time to add Kazumi and Daigo. We know they are level six and a martial class.

As most people already stated, warriors at best

Also, to harp on my V point, if those two have presumably gone up 5 levels since the Azure city battle it's not unreasonable to think that V has gone up 2. Espcially since my earlier point about scrying spells still stands.

Impossible, as Sexy Shoeless God of War already demonstrated. You don't get XP for coup-de-gracing enemies with CR 10 levels below your own. If anything, she lost XP for scribing scrolls and research.

Just because V didn't name the spell V's Enhanced Greater Scrying doesn't mean that it is not higher or equal level to greater scrying and it's quite likley that V already tried the SRD scrying spells.

Oh, because you cannot research stronger spell
with the same effect as existing one on the same level?
You'll end with Greater Scrying, anyway, unless that spell sacrificed its scrying power for the graphical effect, which would be nonsensical [as V wants power, not fine graphic, she isn't a gamer ] and since V is too weak for higher levels it has to be just enchanced scrying.
Sorry, but no cigar

[Chronos]

And note also that V's Enhanced Scrying does a few things that the PHB spell does not.

Specifically? If you're referring to the magic widescreen TV that appears, Greater Scrying does not require the mirror or other focus that the regular version does. I'd say that the way Rich showed it is a reasonable interpretation of how Greater Scrying would work.

My guess is that Vaarsuvius' Enhanced Scrying is Greater Scrying. Every spell had to originally be researched by someone, and maybe that spell just didn't exist in Stickworld until a high-level caster had a need to develop it (and really, how often does one need a Greater Scrying badly enough to bother, as opposed to the regular kind?).

[Kurald Galain]

Specifically?

Well, the only thing Greater Scrying does that regular Scrying doesn't, is allowing a handful of mostly-irrelevant low-level divination spells to be cast through it. There's hardly any point to that in most cases, and V hardly needs a Detect Evil spell to locate his friends.

V, on the other hand, explicitly states he is creating a spell that is "not specifically blocked by the effect"; he's assuming that Cloister would specifically block certain spell effects, which would certainly include those in Core.

So V does not need the "extras" Greater Scrying brings, and does need extras that Greater Scrying does not bring.

[Max_Sinister]

A small detail about the MitD:

Spoiler

Show

In SoD, when Xykon sees the MitD for the first time, he states that it's "an ugly bastard". And the visitors in the circus who see the MitD also seem to be disturbed, frightened or sickened when looking at it.

[Chronos]

V, on the other hand, explicitly states he is creating a spell that is "not specifically blocked by the effect"; he's assuming that Cloister would specifically block certain spell effects, which would certainly include those in Core.

Not necessarily. For all Vaarsuvius (or any of us) knows, Cloister might block all spell effects of 6th level or less. Or it might block Sending, Message, Clairyvoyance, and Scry, specifically. Or it might have every spell known to Dorukan on the list of spells it specifically blocks (which would not include Greater/Enhanced Scrying, if that spell didn't exist in Dorukan's time).

[OmegaDonut]

Before Haley stopped hir, V was about to use magic to put Elan back in a good mood. Question is, what spell(s) could s\he have used?

[sihnfahl]

Before Haley stopped hir, V was about to use magic to put Elan back in a good mood. Question is, what spell(s) could s\he have used?

A simple Suggestion. No matter what V said, Elan would have liked it and felt better.

[Amon Star]

Before Haley stopped hir, V was about to use magic to put Elan back in a good mood. Question is, what spell(s) could s\he have used?

The emotion spell could have done it.

[Kurald Galain]

Not necessarily.

No, not necessarily, but given the excessive amount of assumptions you need to justify the suggestion that the spell called "Vaarsuvius's Enhanced Scrying" is actually the same as the spell called "Scrying, Greater", Occam's Razor suggests that you're most likely wrong.

[Lance]

Shouldn't coffee maker be part of Elan's items?

[Wrecan]

Shouldn't coffee maker be part of Elan's items?

No. We deleted all the items that Elan had before his incarceration unless the show up again (like Banjo).

[Wrecan]

I've added a FAQ to address Lance's question.

[Wrecan]

I'm wondering if 509 doesn't give us some insight into Kubota's stats. Is Qarr a familiar, making Kubota a sorcerer or wizard? Is Kubota a thaumaturgist and Qarr is Kubota's Planar Cohort? Is Qarr just a regular ol' cohort?

And how does an imp charm all those monsters? Imps can only cast suggestion 1/day and cannot gain class levels. Maybe Qarr is not an imp but some home-brewed fiend.

[Chronos]

And neither Succubi nor Erinyes can normally use Plane Shift, either. Rich might just be in the habit of tweaking outsiders' abilities. Nor do I think we need to worry about any mechanical relationship between Kubota and Qaar: He could be a cohort (Kubota has followers, and thus presumably Leadership), or he could just hang out with him.


On another note, Zz'dtri appears to be a transmutation specialist, since he cast six Fly spells in one day (one each on himself, V, Haley, and Sabine, to reach the Air Sigil, and one each on himself and Thog, when they were escaping the Order). Two bonus third-level spells would require an Int of 24, implausibly high at that level, so that's probably one bonus from Int and one from specialization. He could also be a sorcerer or some other class, but Nale introduces him as "our wizard".

[Mesfens]

HEY could anyone show the minor characters stats, oh c'mon we want to know the random palidin stats.

[Sc00by]

Before Haley stopped hir, V was about to use magic to put Elan back in a good mood. Question is, what spell(s) could s\he have used?

How about this one?

HEY could anyone show the minor characters stats, oh c'mon we want to know the random palidin stats.

And what, exactly are we supposed to base those stats on. You can only produce stats for characters that you've seen do things... Random mook number 1 is probably a 1st level warrior with 4 HP. Or else a lvl 1 paladin* with 5 HP! What else do you need to know?

*apart from how to spell paladin, of course

[Doug Lampert]

That would be appropriate, at any rate. I don't think we can really tell if they're samurai, or fighters, or warriors.

Note that in the Azure City battle, several of the troops were level-5 already.

Note also that level 1 to level 6 equals 15000 XP, whereas level 13 to level 15 equals 27000 XP.

Any encounter able to give XP to both level 5 characters and level 13 characters gives over 6 times as much XP to level 5 as to level 13. Broadly, if EVERY encounter that they've earned XP for from starting at level 1 to becoming level 6 ALSO gave full XP to V (most unlikely) then V got about 1/5th of what he needs for one level.

I personally go with the "they were warriors till they got names, at which point they retroactively became Elite Ability Fighters". Sure that's not possible in the rules, but show me the rule for having a name reducing the severity of your wounds and making you more effective in combat...

Mooks are standard array warriors, major characters are elite array and mostly PC classed. Names took them out of the first and into the second category. Level 6 Fighters.