Erfworld 84: Parson's Klog Page 7

[teratorn]

Edit: Out of curiosity, I went back to page 16 to get an estimate of the size of GK. Frame 6 gives a fair idea of the proportions in Parson's game.

Better not assume much, Jamie takes a lot of liberty in these things. It looked like there were many thousands of units in Stanley's parade but now we know there are less than 1,000 units in GK. GK may be a single hex.

On the other hand, we don't know what GK has by way of defensive artillery. Trebuchets? Scorpions?

Those would count as units, they are not in the list.

[SteveMB]

On the other hand, we don't know what GK has by way of defensive artillery. Trebuchets? Scorpions?

Those would count as units, they are not in the list.

Stanley had some siege engines at Warchalking, but apparently the late Lord Manpower's last command wasn't successfully carried out.

[Jasdoif]

Those would count as units, they are not in the list.

It's worth noting that stationary defenses aren't counted as "units" in some games; though I'd be surprised if Parson hadn't noticed any such things by now. On the other hand, maybe city defensive units don't appear until combat starts, like the boiling oil cauldrons in Lords of the Realm II.

[teratorn]

On the other hand, maybe city defensive units don't appear until combat starts, like the boiling oil cauldrons in Lords of the Realm II.

Seeing that Sizemore is the guy in charge of defense, the boiling liquid would not be oil.

It's possible. Maybe they are included in the definition of "walls". But things like trebuchets, scorpions and ballistas would be in the list. It's a pity, Parson sure could use some artillery.

We haven't seen "artillery" in the other side. Units capable of hitting nearby hexes would make this game cooler, and increase the value of bats. Send a scout, see target, concentrate fire there.

[Gez]

It's worth noting that stationary defenses aren't counted as "units" in some games; though I'd be surprised if Parson hadn't noticed any such things by now. On the other hand, maybe city defensive units don't appear until combat starts, like the boiling oil cauldrons in Lords of the Realm II.

Or the tower archers in HoMM III. Depending on your fortification level, you have zero, one or three of them; and they can only be destroyed by siege engines (or cyclops, who can function as siege engines).

[Occasional Sage]

Here's an oddity:

Why do Warlords decay when uncroaked, but standard units don't?

210 Uncroaked infantry
2 Uncroaked warlords, in advanced decay

Is the distinction drawn for game balance? Is there a fundamental difference in the units themselves, or the spells used to uncroak them, independant of balance issues? I throw this out purely to inspire speculation, as I'm sure there hasn't been anything said to explain this.

[Jasdoif]

Here's an oddity:

Why do Warlords decay when uncroaked, but standard units don't?

Is the distinction drawn for game balance? Is there a fundamental difference in the units themselves, or the spells used to uncroak them, independant of balance issues? I throw this out purely to inspire speculation, as I'm sure there hasn't been anything said to explain this.

If I were to make a guess...I'd say uncroaked infantry decay just like uncroaked warlords do; but the infantry don't have the hits to handle the decay; they simply crumble into uselessness (and are no longer units at that point).


EDIT: Alternatively, note that the casters and warlords are the only ones with added information. Perhaps their state is intrinsically more important then that of the other units, and so the "normal units" only get a count.

[Occasional Sage]

If I were to make a guess...I'd say uncroaked infantry decay just like uncroaked warlords do; but the infantry don't have the hits to handle the decay; they simply crumble into uselessness (and are no longer units at that point).

That'd make sense for basic infantry, yeah.

Alternatively, note that the casters and warlords are the only ones with added information. Perhaps their state is intrinsically more important then that of the other units, and so the "normal units" only get a count.

But then what about elite and other multi-hit units? I'm interested to see what happens if, say, a dwagon is uncroaked.

In fact, yeah! What this comic needs more of is dracoliches!

[Jasdoif]

But then what about elite and other multi-hit units? I'm interested to see what happens if, say, a dwagon is uncroaked.

Huh. Come to think of it, there's already a multi-hit unit there. I'm refining my original guess: The units with notes possess some additional importance. Casters and warlords are treated specially in a number of cases, this could simply be another such case.

[SteveMB]

If I were to make a guess...I'd say uncroaked infantry decay just like uncroaked warlords do; but the infantry don't have the hits to handle the decay; they simply crumble into uselessness (and are no longer units at that point).

EDIT: Alternatively, note that the casters and warlords are the only ones with added information. Perhaps their state is intrinsically more important then that of the other units, and so the "normal units" only get a count.

This list is copied off a Stupid Meal "Stupid Facts About Erfworld" blurb. Presumably, more comprehensive information exists (e.g. the display Parson would see with his glasses if he looked at all those individual units), up to the total level of detail that's accounted for in the Erfworld combat system.

[Jasdoif]

This list is copied off a Stupid Meal "Stupid Facts About Erfworld" blurb. Presumably, more comprehensive information exists (e.g. the display Parson would see with his glasses if he looked at all those individual units), up to the total level of detail that's accounted for in the Erfworld combat system.

Yeah, it's definitely a summary list.

Which is too bad though, I'm trying to imagine how big of a burger would come in a Stupid Meal sufficiently tall to show every last unit stat on its side...dang it, now I'm hungry.

[fendrin]

It's possible. Maybe they are included in the definition of "walls". But things like trebuchets, scorpions and ballistas would be in the list. It's a pity, Parson sure could use some artillery.

We haven't seen "artillery" in the other side. Units capable of hitting nearby hexes would make this game cooler, and increase the value of bats. Send a scout, see target, concentrate fire there.

Siege engines would only be listed if they are independant units. If they require a unit to operate them, they would probably not be considered units, and thus would not be listed.

For that matter, the only siege machinery we have seen (if memory servers) are the towers. Perhaps the concept/practical development of large scale projectile throwers hasn't happened yet in Erfworld?

Here's an oddity:

Why do Warlords decay when uncroaked, but standard units don't?


Is the distinction drawn for game balance? Is there a fundamental difference in the units themselves, or the spells used to uncroak them, independant of balance issues? I throw this out purely to inspire speculation, as I'm sure there hasn't been anything said to explain this.

My theory is that the decaying of the warlords is a decaying of their command ability. That would mean that at the end of their decay they would have minimal or no leadership bonus, and may no longer be considered warlords. We have no evidence to support a non-superficial physical effect of the decay.

EDIT: Alternatively, note that the casters and warlords are the only ones with added information. Perhaps their state is intrinsically more important then that of the other units, and so the "normal units" only get a count.

Actually, other units do too, for instance the pikers are labeled "mostly mid/high level"

[Jasdoif]

Actually, other units do too, for instance the pikers are labeled "mostly mid/high level"

Hmm. I didn't notice that today, and forgot that I'd seen it. Sheesh.

OK...I guess level would be of importance with normal units. (Note to self: Remember that normal units have levels)

[Konig]

They must have bought a lot of units in the past few turns.

Page 5, Panel 4
Wanda:
Have you looked at our composition, Lord Stanley? There are fewer than 200 living men among our forces.

Page 84, Klog #7
242 Gobwin fighters.
135 Piker-class infantry.
48 Stabber-class infantry
36 Spidew cavalry
32 Archer-class infantry
27 Twoll Heavies
etc.

Unless maybe Gobwins don't count as living men.

[jindra34]

They must have bought a lot of units in the past few turns.

Page 5, Panel 4
Wanda:
Have you looked at our composition, Lord Stanley? There are fewer than 200 living men among our forces.

Page 84, Klog #7
242 Gobwin fighters.
135 Piker-class infantry.
48 Stabber-class infantry
36 Spidew cavalry
32 Archer-class infantry
27 Twoll Heavies
etc.

Unless maybe Gobwins don't count as living men.

well GObwin knob has been producing for a few turns since then.

[SteveMB]

They must have bought a lot of units in the past few turns.

Page 5, Panel 4
Wanda:
Have you looked at our composition, Lord Stanley? There are fewer than 200 living men among our forces.

Page 84, Klog #7
242 Gobwin fighters.
135 Piker-class infantry.
48 Stabber-class infantry
36 Spidew cavalry
32 Archer-class infantry
27 Twoll Heavies
etc.

Unless maybe Gobwins don't count as living men.

On the Cast Page, most of the characters are listed as "Race: Men"; Bogroll is listed as "Race: Twoll". Presumably gobwins are "Race: Gobwin" units.

[Bongos]

Gobwins are'nt men, they are Gobwins, men are like
Lord Manpower, humans.

So less then 200 living men, + the Gobwins, +the Twolls, etc.

At least that's how I took it.

I'm guessing the Pikers, the Stabbers and the Archers are men?

More than 200 ( its' 215) total now I guess but not much more.

[Arkenputtyknife]

For that matter, the only siege machinery we have seen (if memory servers) are the towers. Perhaps the concept/practical development of large scale projectile throwers hasn't happened yet in Erfworld?

Mm. Maybe they're worried about breaking the glass walls between hexes.

Also, what about the fact that the towers were being moved across country fully manned? In reality, towers like that are much easier to move without men inside, so they're normally manned after getting them to the siege location. Or is this another “wave hand and put it down to game mechanics” thing?

Better not assume much, Jamie takes a lot of liberty in these things. It looked like there were many thousands of units in Stanley's parade but now we know there are less than 1,000 units in GK. GK may be a single hex.

You can't get very far without making postulates. The trick is testing those postulates to see whether or not they hold up, and I for one would very much like to know how big GK actually is in hexes, as it's going to make a big difference to how the siege is conducted. Hexes appear to be quite big, from what we've seen, but are they big enough to contain an entire city? I don't think they are, but I have no proof.

Knowing that there are only a thousand units in GK doesn't tell us anything, because it looks like the citadel by itself is large enough to contain those thousand troops and more within its walls. I'm certainly not going to suggest that the citadel is bigger than a hex. GK, however, is a city.

The best aerial view I've found so far of GK is on page 21, which suggests that the crater wall is at most 2x from the citadel wall, where x is the length of the side of the citadel. I'm now thinking that GK comprises a central hex containing only the citadel, one ring of city hexes (possibly two if the scale is off), and one ring of crater wall—possibly city hexes bounded by crater wall. That would make the wall 12 hexes long. Or it might just be a 7-hex donut. I really can't bring myself to believe that it's one hex.

If GK is a single hex, then what is the significance of Ansom's “We will hit it from all directions and pour through the first breach we get”? Also, if it's just a single hex, what's the point of the citadel even having a bailey? It seems to me that taking GK will be a multi-step operation: breach the crater wall, occupy the city, then take the citadel, and I can't see that happening if it's just one hex.

[Caledonian]

Casting units that are uncroaked turn into normal infantry. My guess is that at the end of their decay, uncroaked warlords have no flesh remaining on their bones and are mere infantry units - that is, animated skeletons with no particularly special abilities.

[teratorn]

Also, what about the fact that the towers were being moved across country fully manned? In reality, towers like that are much easier to move without men inside, so they're normally manned after getting them to the siege location. Or is this another “wave hand and put it down to game mechanics” thing?

Infantry units inside siege units may have very little move, so they're better being carried, so as not to delay the column. It makes sense that in some classes you change stats like move for fighting capability or more hitpoints.

If GK is a single hex, then what is the significance of Ansom's “We will hit it from all directions and pour through the first breach we get”?

There are six sides on a hex, GK will be forced to split its forces into six stacks to face an attack from each one of those sides.

Also, if it's just a single hex, what's the point of the citadel even having a bailey? It seems to me that taking GK will be a multi-step operation: breach the crater wall, occupy the city, then take the citadel, and I can't see that happening if it's just one hex.

They still need to bring their siege inside the city and to the citadel. A single hex with a divide makes it possible to have two armies for several turns inside the same hex and something very close to real time warfare (no move limitations). It also means Parson is not so limited due to his loss of intel.

We don't know what kind of bonuses GK units get when in "urban warfare mode" inside their city, but troops being able to come from the tunnels and finishing moving siege seems possible.

[Caledonian]

The marbits also saw the dwagons coming. It's possible they all rushed to take up positions when they knew battle was imminent.

[Bongos]

There are six sides on a hex, GK will be forced to split its forces into six stacks to face an attack from each one of those sides.




We don't know what kind of bonuses GK units get when in "urban warfare mode" inside their city, but troops being able to come from the tunnels and finishing moving siege seems possible.

I think that the first situation would look more like this

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0068.html

I don't think they would have to split up inside a hex, movement in a hex takes no move.


Your last point is very good, I bet there is a substantial bonus for fighting from your home base.

[teratorn]

I don't think they would have to split up inside a hex, movement in a hex takes no move.

I'm assuming that six stacks can try to enter into your hex at a given time (one from each side) and unless you have stacks ready to engage each one of them you'll need to let them in. Hexes are huge, there must be some mechanism to work as the equivalent of flanking your enemy when trying to get in.

[jindra34]

I don't think they would have to split up inside a hex, movement in a hex takes no move.

Yes but it does take a little something called time.

[Capt'n Ironbrow]

I'm with the multiple-hex-city theory, but actually, there's some things I'd like to add.

1. we don't know the effect of fortifications in this world, especially how fortifications are placed within a hex. a hex could be bordered by a stone wall (i.e. Hex-side= wall section), or the stone wall runs through a hex splitting the Hex in two (Hex itself is wall section).

2. Seeing the pictures of Gobwin Knob and Parson's gameboard, it appears that the only way above ground into the volcano is that twisty road we see. If the volcano's other sides are impassable for all but mountain-able creatures and flyers, Ansom's assault tactic is less plausible (hit it from all sides).

3. Is the volcano to be considered an "outer wall" or a terrain feature?

If the only road we see going into the volcano is in effect the only way an enemy might use beside the tunnels, then the surface defence of GK is a little bit easier. I don't think it'll save Gobwin Knob, the coalition has the highest Warlord bonusses and the all-powerfull Archons. Vinnie, Ansom, Jillian and the Archons all went level-up in the battle of the lake...

[Freederick]

While those aren't mutually exclusive, the consensus is that he's going into hiding rather than striking at Ansom. Even the folks who think he's going for the 'Pliers don't seem to think he'll get back to GK.

Two very different results for Parson and company, but both result in no Stanley for the near future.

Everybody seems to think that Stanley is going to either:
Run and hide, or
Attack Ansom and his retinue.

Well, there is a third possibility, and probably the best:

Spoiler

Show

Stanley is making a beeline for Charlie's mountain stronghold. He will attack and overwhelm Charlie while the Archons are occupied at GK; he will seize the Arkendish and gain control of the Archons; he will hole up at the remote mountain fastness and grow in strength, with two Arkentools at his command, while the Coalition takes GK (or not) and slowly makes its way (or not) to his new hideout.

[Bongos]

I'm looking forward to seeing what and "Acid Rock" golem looks like.
To me "Acid Rock" is Jimmy Hendrix, but I guess some might think of it as classic rock as well, but there's no classic rock golems on the list.

Would Kiss be "Hard Rock". It's a cool theme. I would love a full panorama of all the Gobwin Knob forces in "full paint" assembles for battle, or at least a cool cross section like Webinar's incursion commando group.

Which makes me realize, it seems we see more of Ansom's various troops (twoops?) than Gobwin Knobs.

[Occasional Sage]

Which makes me realize, it seems we see more of Ansom's various troops (twoops?) than Gobwin Knobs.

I've noticed that, too. I attribute it to the GK scenes being focused on Parson's character development, while action-type scenes, which highlight the cool units, are predominantly outside of GK. I wouldn't be surprised if that changes soon, though.

Spoiler

Show

Stanley is making a beeline for Charlie's mountain stronghold. He will attack and overwhelm Charlie while the Archons are occupied at GK; he will seize the Arkendish and gain control of the Archons; he will hole up at the remote mountain fastness and grow in strength, with two Arkentools at his command, while the Coalition takes GK (or not) and slowly makes its way (or not) to his new hideout.

That would show more lateral thinking than I give Stanley credit for being able to manage. It would be an exceedingly clever way to relieve some of the pressure on him (assuming the logistics work), but it's a level of thinking that would make me raise an eyebrow. Not only is it creative, it also displays more long-term planning than Stanley demonstrates: if you have a strong production base it's easier to seize more territory and eventually collect Arkentools, but he squandered his empire. That would be a solution I'd expect from Vinnie, or Parson.

if it's the way you problem-solve, we need to play some games.

Also, I remember the Arkendish conversation being had when the Archons first appeared, but I still find it... off. Given the theme of the world and the Tools being the Titan's world-building detritus, the tools should revolve around construction and modeling. For those with modeling experience, needlenose pliers are a good fit, and some kind of hammer fits the terrain-building theme. Something like snips and maybe a shovel would make more sense than a dish.

EDIT: can anybody tell me why I have "four" stuck in my head as the number of Arkentools? Is that the creation of my brain, or something we've been told?

[Surfing HalfOrc]

EDIT: can anybody tell me why I have "four" stuck in my head as the number of Arkentools? Is that the creation of my brain, or something we've been told?

Because it says so here:

The three we've seen so far have a "rendered" look to them, while everything else is "painted."

The Hammer, the Pliers, and the Dish all have the "Pasted on the Artwork" look, but whether the Arkendish is a Tool of the Titans or not remains to be seen.

That, and the final Arkentool.

[Justyn]

Because it says so here:

The three we've seen so far have a "rendered" look to them, while everything else is "painted."

The Hammer, the Pliers, and the Dish all have the "Pasted on the Artwork" look, but whether the Arkendish is a Tool of the Titans or not remains to be seen.

That, and the final Arkentool.

The final known Arkentool. We don't know how many Arkentools there actualy are, only Rob and Jamie do. There could be only four, there could be fifty, or there could be five Arkentools. Heck it has yet to be confirmed that that dish that Charlie has is an Arkentool (but it can be inferred).