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Thread: Wait Wait Wait
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2007-11-07, 09:45 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
While you're casting feather fall - wing buffet. Because you have 0 control over where you are falling, the 75mph gale force gusts of wind caused by the wings will slam your character against a wall.
Feather Fall only reduces falling incurred by gravity, it does not reduce movementFeather fall works only upon free-falling objects. It does not affect a sword blow or a charging or flying creature.
Well a quickened dimension door would get them within touch range with enough time for a maximised shivering touch before the dragon can react. Hell, the wizard still has time for a move action to scratch his arse if needed, baby.
And I haven't even begun to discuss the lesser and greater artifacts dragons like to collect.
And they lose to wizards with shivering touch. It's the ciiiiiiiiiiiircle of life...The Order of the Sacred Order is on! Feel free to watch if you like! PM if you are interested in joining, I've moved my game away from these moderators -
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2007-11-07, 09:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-11-07, 09:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
More balanced. Maybe. Better? Open to subjective interpretation.
Originally Posted by Goumindong
Beguiler, you just got served.
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SpoilerOriginally Posted by BRC
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2007-11-07, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
only if the dragon encounter was written by a DM with 0 knowledge of how dragon encounters should work, or the objects they carry, such as those described in CoW or the Dragonomicon.Last edited by UserClone; 2007-11-07 at 09:52 PM.
Beguiler, you just got served.
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SpoilerOriginally Posted by BRC
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2007-11-07, 09:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Unless those random monsters make up a large fraction of all enemies, so that you fight more thought eaters than anything else, it won't affect the class balance. Even then, it's an arbitrary kludge of a solution, as is scattering antimagic fields all over the world to weaken arcane casters. It's much better to design the classes so that they have power and effectiveness comparable to that of other classes than to create specialized, tailored menaces whose sole justification for existence is to keep the wizards in line.
I've read a number of those novels, though by no means a majority. I always thought that the wizard characters in those novels bore strikingly little resemblance to the 'wizards' found in the card game; they usually focus on characters with real limits and the dynamics of the novels' plots don't resemble the dynamics of game play.
I guarantee you, so many of these problems I keep reading about didn't exist in 2nd edition.
When you make the players "cry and beg for mercy," you've gone beyond the level of "danger and setbacks" that are compatible with fun unless you're involved in some sort of bizarre, perverse S&M variant on the tabletop RPG.
If your idea of fun is to give the players whatever they want, then I suggest you take out a board game called: CANDY LAND and use that for your gaming sessions.
What is with this munchkin fixation? Munchkins aren't the problem here; wizards being intrinsically more powerful than, say, fighters or rogues in combat encounters is the problem.
Only because they do it to other people and do not have it done to themselves.
I now dub you "slick," slick.
If the only way to adjust encounters to make wizards balanced is to impose arbitrary conditions that either completely remove their sole effective ability (spellcasting) or to break the rules in favor of their enemies so that those enemies are better at killing wizards than any combination of published statistics and published methods of strengthening them would indicate, the problem is with the quality of the system, not the quality of the DM.
Yes, you did. Dragons don't deal trample damage moving around. In fact, the rules of Third edition specifically, explicitly state that creatures the size of big dragons and creatures the size of humans can move around in the same space simultaneously without either stepping on the other, the premise being that the human is running around between the dragon's legs, just as a mouse might move between the legs of a human.
Therefore, your suggestion that characters entering melee combat with a dragon automatically take trampling damage breaks both the specific rules implied by the D&D definition of "dragon," and the general rules related to how large and small creature move around each other. So yes, Slick, you are breaking rules.
Wards and watchdog spells will hurt the other characters just as much as they hurt the wizard, if not more so.
However, your unfamiliarity with the reasons why dragons are vulnerable to the effects of Shivering Touch suggests that the people playing with you haven't really tried very hard to be dangerous and effective. Note that this is not a question of munchkinnery- any intelligent character (such as a typical wizard) would seek to employ the most effective tactics available against a given foe. Against a dragon, touch attack spells are very effective, and since dragons are not famous for their agility, a spell that robs them of what agility they possess would also be very effective. Veteran players will tend to do things like that simply because it strains the suspension of disbelief for characters to employ deliberately bad tactics.
Nonveteran players will not know to do these things, which suggests that your experiences have been against nonveteran players. Therefore, your ability to suppress their sallies at being more effective than level would indicate doesn't prove much, just as the fact that you have a superb batting average against a Little League team would not be remarkable. Nor would it prove that it is automatically easy for any batter to have, say, a .500 batting average in all games and that all the Major League batters with their .300 averages must be incompetent.
IF YOU CAN GET WITHIN RANGE TO USE TOUCH.
It's not quite that easy; we've had this argument before on this board. I was there.
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2007-11-07, 09:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-11-07, 09:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Originally Posted by SlickOriginally Posted by Dervag
Beguiler, you just got served.
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SpoilerOriginally Posted by BRC
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2007-11-07, 09:58 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Feather Fall is an immediate action casting time - the Dragon used his/her turn casting Dispel Magic from an artifact or whatever, the wizard cast feather fall - now it's the wizard's turn - he/she has no swift action but retains his/her move and standard actions, so he/she can still do stuff before the Dragon gets a chance to buffet. I'm fairly sure.
From where is Anti Magic Shell? I can't comment on the validity of that.
Oh, of course. A DM who doesn't own those books clearly is just terrible.Last edited by Ozymandias; 2007-11-07 at 10:03 PM.
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2007-11-07, 09:59 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Beguiler, you just got served.
ALL hail DirtyTabs, creator of this wonderful UserClone TRONpony!
*sigh*
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SpoilerOriginally Posted by BRC
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2007-11-07, 10:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Originally Posted by SRD
Edit: Ninjas lul.Last edited by tyckspoon; 2007-11-07 at 10:05 PM.
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2007-11-07, 10:07 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Your dragon gets an aweful lot of actions per round. I mean, he dispells magic, and then he wing buffets. And he does this all while flying.
Anti magic shell or any 1 of the 100-1,000 magical gems encrusted on the dragon's scales will take care of this strategy without breaking a sweat.
And I haven't even begun to discuss the lesser and greater artifacts dragons like to collect.
only if the dragon encounter was written by a DM with 0 knowledge of how dragon encounters should work, or the objects they carry, such as those described in CoW or the Dragonomicon.
Please describe what CoW and Dragonomicon say about dragons that the core does not that makes them able to avoid a wizard.Last edited by Goumindong; 2007-11-07 at 10:08 PM.
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2007-11-07, 10:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Re Frightful Presence: Nonmagical ranged weapons appropriate to lvl 1 warriors, like longbows.
Re DR X/Magic:All successful attacks deal 1 HP of damage.My mistake, DR is the exception to this rule. Since this an army, we can scale up to fix this. The army needs to deal 199 HPs of damage to the adult black dragon to defeat it. Assume an army of at least 5400 lvl 1 warriors with longbows. Assuming they can all attack in a round, 270 of them will roll Nat 20's. 33.75 of them will roll each result of a 1d8 for damage (IE, 33.75 roll 8, 33.75 roll 7...) so the average damage for all 270, after the DR /5 is 202.5 HP of damage in one round. Now, the dragon can scare some of them away sure, scale the army up until you can ensure that 5400 won't be scared away and you've won in one round.
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2007-11-07, 10:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
{Scrubbed}
Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2007-12-03 at 10:47 AM.
The Order of the Sacred Order is on! Feel free to watch if you like! PM if you are interested in joining, I've moved my game away from these moderators -
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2007-11-07, 10:18 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Back up to the first page:
vs...
So... almost any wizard needs to have antimagic fields sprinkled around the game automatically, and thus you are now arguing against what your big statements on the first post was?
- Edit -
And for declaring you understand the rules.
You confused 3 ft for a touch with 5 ft.
That's clear in the rules.
Not to mention the other sprinkled examples through this entire debacle of a topic.Last edited by Reinboom; 2007-11-07 at 10:19 PM.
Avatar by Alarra
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2007-11-07, 10:19 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Please show me the page dealing with this.
As far as i can see there are only 2 references to crushing damage in the SRD.
1. Constrict attacks: Successfull Grapple attack required
2. Swallow Whole: Successfull Attack on a bite attack to swallow whole will produce crushing damage each round the smaller creature is in the other gullet/stomach.
Should i show you how easy it is to cast a touch spell while in a creatures stomach?
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2007-11-07, 10:22 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
There is no contradiction. In his first post, he said that there were ways to stop people from munchkinning. In his second, he was lamentating the blatant lack of imbalance in RAW D&D, which causes him to have to use munchkin-stopping methods more often, as, in his opinion, a large fraction of wizards are munchkins.
I may not agree with him personally, but I can certainly see where he is coming from.
Also, @Dalboz of Gurth:
A dragon's CR rating reflects the dumb, lumbering stupid thing that you hate so much. And they're considered way overpowered for their CR. If you put in lairs, intelligent tactics, artifacts etc etc then you will have to increase their CR rating, as the dragon will now be more powerful than its dumb counterpart.
Also, I've checked the SRD, and I don't really think that a Dragon can really cause Crushing Damage short of Contrict/Swallow Whole. I believe you may be mistaken on that front.Last edited by Artemician; 2007-11-07 at 10:29 PM.
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2007-11-07, 10:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Last edited by Roland St. Jude; 2007-12-03 at 10:48 AM.
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2007-11-07, 10:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Interestingly, I just searched the SRD for these magical crushing rules, and the closest thing the search came up with on a search for the word "crush" was the following:
Constrict
A creature with this special attack can crush an opponent, dealing bludgeoning damage, after making a successful grapple check. The amount of damage is given in the creature’s entry. If the creature also has the improved grab ability it deals constriction damage in addition to damage dealt by the weapon used to grab.
Still, maybe the search fails at finding it, can you reference a book and page number for your crushing rules?Man this thing was full of outdated stuff.
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2007-11-07, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
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2007-11-07, 10:24 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Go ahead.
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2007-11-07, 10:26 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
See, guys, you only need 200 people to kill a dragon - they all jump on him and he dies from crushing damage.
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2007-11-07, 10:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
lol find it yourself.
Crushing damage is usually detailed in the environmental rules (i.e. a ceiling falling down on a character).
As far as i can see there are only 2 references to crushing damage in the SRD.
1. Constrict attacks: Successfull Grapple attack required
2. Swallow Whole: Successfull Attack on a bite attack to swallow whole will produce crushing damage each round the smaller creature is in the other gullet/stomach.
Should i show you how easy it is to cast a touch spell while in a creatures stomach?
As a Dungeon Master, I would whole heartedly allow and encourage one of my players to use a touch spell from inside the corrosive acid filled belly of a dragon.
by the way, that's another way to handle a player who likes to disembowl dragons.
Stomach Acid.The Order of the Sacred Order is on! Feel free to watch if you like! PM if you are interested in joining, I've moved my game away from these moderators -
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2007-11-07, 10:32 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-11-07, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
The Order of the Sacred Order is on! Feel free to watch if you like! PM if you are interested in joining, I've moved my game away from these moderators -
Current DM: Me
Current Campaign: B2 Keep on the Borderlands :D
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2007-11-07, 10:34 PM (ISO 8601)
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The Order of the Sacred Order is on! Feel free to watch if you like! PM if you are interested in joining, I've moved my game away from these moderators -
Current DM: Me
Current Campaign: B2 Keep on the Borderlands :D
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2007-11-07, 10:35 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Wiki - Q&A - FB - LIn - Tw
d20r Compilation PDF - last updated 9.11.14
d20r: Spells (I-L) - d20r: Spells (H) - d20r: Spells (G) - d20r: Spells (F) - d20r: Spells (E) - d20r: Spells (D) - d20r: Wizard class
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2007-11-07, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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2007-11-07, 10:37 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Is the acid into a dragon stomach avoidable by this?
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2007-11-07, 10:38 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Wait Wait Wait
Wiki - Q&A - FB - LIn - Tw
d20r Compilation PDF - last updated 9.11.14
d20r: Spells (I-L) - d20r: Spells (H) - d20r: Spells (G) - d20r: Spells (F) - d20r: Spells (E) - d20r: Spells (D) - d20r: Wizard class
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2007-11-07, 10:40 PM (ISO 8601)
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