Wait Wait Wait

[Kultrum]

Is it just me or does every thread about overpowered wizards show the exact same wizard with the exact same spell list using the exact same tactics. I don't know but Its seems to me that this is an overpowered build not class, but thats just me.

[Closet_Skeleton]

Yes, you can make a wizard build that isn't overpowered, but it would be as much of an artificial excercise as Pun-Pun.

The wizard build isn't powergaming, it's a really easy thing to do which relies mostly on core PhB spells. There's no difficulty in making a wizard that powerful, you just need intelligent spell selection.

Initiate of the Sevenfold Veil is a real overpowered wizard build, the Wizard everyone talks about is just a normal wizard who plays to his strengths and doesn't waste resources.

It's actually roleplaying, since the whole point of wizards is that they're intelligent characters who have to plan ahead. The idea of a smart person who just blows everything up doesn't really sound very realistic. Unless the character in question was actually insane that is.

[VerdugoExplode]

It's just you.

Most of the arguments end up with someone showing how a core only, straight wizard can ruin existence in his vicinity. The ones using every supplement are just there to prove it can be done with more flair.

[Thinker]

The overpowered build is take x number of levels of wizard, where x is the maximum number of levels for a campaign.

Many of the similarities in builds are mostly common sense things...its like Natural Spell for Druid.

[Person_Man]

I've been gaming since 1st ed. The vast majority of the players I've gamed with have been pretty reasonable, non-power gamers. And all of us were new at some point, groping around the rules, looking for something interesting and fun to do. And its been my experience that arcane Magic Users/Wizards have the highest potential to "break" any game, sometimes accidentally. Charm Person, Shatter, Fly, Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, etc. In many encounters, arcane magic is an instant win button. And that's fine, for the arcane caster. But it sometimes leaves the other players feeling bored, underpowered, or frustrated.

The fix is simple. Talk to your players about it, and be mature. But on a purely mechanical level, it needs to be fixed.

[AKA_Bait]

And its been my experience that arcane Magic Users/Wizards have the highest potential to "break" any game, sometimes accidentally. Charm Person, Shatter, Fly, Polymorph, Greater Invisibility, etc. In many encounters, arcane magic is an instant win button. And that's fine, for the arcane caster. But it sometimes leaves the other players feeling bored, underpowered, or frustrated.

I've found this mostly true, but the power of any full caster (arcane or divine) to accidentally break a game is so close in terms of the few times I've seen it happen that really the mechanical soloution needs to be either toning down magic as a whole or powering up everything else. Personally, I'm torn on it. I like that my players can do cool stuff when they want to but I'd also the feel of the game not become too overthetop.

[Riffington]

The idea of a smart person who just blows everything up doesn't really sound very realistic. Unless the character in question was actually insane that is.

http://www.sluggy.com/daily.php?date=051023

[mostlyharmful]

The answer isn't even to tone down magic per say, so long as you have siginficant amounts of reality warping in the hands of the PCs they will find new and unbalencing things to do with it. Magic would have to be downgraded a looong way to even out overall, and that would exaserbate the long level drag most arcane casters (and some divine) feel. The answer is unfortunately to only let reasonable players access to the full spectrum of magic and then in consultation with you.

plus there's a whole heap of alternate class feature varients that tone down the problem, and then persuading multiclassing options. etc..

none of this is going to stop a power mad little munchkin but then nothing really will short of DM fiat and constant vigilance

[Dhavaer]

none of this is going to stop a power mad little munchkin but then nothing really will short of DM fiat and constant vigilance

Mad Eye would approve.

[Dairun Cates]

Magic would have to be downgraded a looong way to even out overall, and that would exaserbate the long level drag most arcane casters (and some divine) feel.

Or... You know. They could make casters not suck at low levels and fighters not so freaking powerful at low levels because this is a social game and not a damned console RPG. Seriously, the very concept of some classes being inherently better at certain levels, while smart in single-player experiences, is a completely inane concept in a social group. The design theory SAYS that Wizard's should be more powerful at higher levels and that's the base of the problem.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Anyone who thinks Wizards are overpowered, has obviously never had a DM such as I who uses Wild Magic Zones sprinkled liberally across the landscape.

[kamikasei]

Anyone who thinks Wizards are overpowered, has obviously never had a DM such as I who uses Wild Magic Zones sprinkled liberally across the landscape.

Seriously? That's your argument - "anyone who thinks class X is overpowered has obviously never seen class X denied its features by arbitrary DM fiat!"?

No one who thinks fighters are overpowered (bear with me) has ever seen them afflicted by deadly no-save-allowed arms-fall-off-disease either, I'll warrant.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Seriously? That's your argument - "anyone who thinks class X is overpowered has obviously never seen class X denied its features by arbitrary DM fiat!"?

No one who thinks fighters are overpowered (bear with me) has ever seen them afflicted by deadly no-save-allowed arms-fall-off-disease either, I'll warrant.

My point is this:

Wizards build these DPS OMFG IMGONNABEAT YOU DOWN characters because they've neven been shown the frailty of their class.

It's the exact same problem people were whining and moaning about when Psionics were introduced.

Then 1 simple thing happened with psionics: they were introduced to thought eaters. A random monster encounter that exploited the weaknesses of the class.

For a wizard munchkin to be taught a lesson, all he or she needs to experience, is one bloody, embarrassing, and frightening moment of mortal weakness.

From then on, you'll find your munchkin problem has been solved. Or he/she has learned how to play their class without OMFGIMGONNAKILLYOU attitude.

[Green Bean]

My point is this:

Wizards build these DPS OMFG IMGONNABEAT YOU DOWN characters because they've neven been shown the frailty of their class.

It's the exact same problem people were whining and moaning about when Psionics were introduced.

Then 1 simple thing happened with psionics: they were introduced to thought eaters. A random monster encounter that exploited the weaknesses of the class.

For a wizard munchkin to be taught a lesson, all he or she needs to experience, is one bloody, embarrassing, and frightening moment of mortal weakness.

From then on, you'll find your munchkin problem has been solved. Or he/she has learned how to play their class without OMFGIMGONNAKILLYOU attitude.

Or, you know, the player accepts the fact that he'll be useless for one encounter out of every hundred, and has fun atomizing the other ninety nine.

[kamikasei]

My point is this:

Wizards build these DPS OMFG IMGONNABEAT YOU DOWN characters because they've neven been shown the frailty of their class.

I disagree. I would say wizard characters are built to be very powerful because it's easy to do so, and obviously beneficial. If your player is a jerk or an arrogant ass, that is independent of whether the class he's playing is overpowered. The most well-mannered and reasonable player with a wizard character still has an overpowered class and is still likely to overshadow other characters in combat if they're playing weaker classes such as fighter or, say, monk or samurai.

It's the exact same problem people were whining and moaning about when Psionics were introduced.

Then 1 simple thing happened with psionics: they were introduced to thought eaters. A random monster encounter that exploited the weaknesses of the class.

Now, are you talking about 2nd edition psionics, or 3rd or 3.5? As I understand it, each of them had different problems to the others.

For a wizard munchkin to be taught a lesson, all he or she needs to experience, is one bloody, embarrassing, and frightening moment of mortal weakness.

From then on, you'll find your munchkin problem has been solved. Or he/she has learned how to play their class without OMFGIMGONNAKILLYOU attitude.

Well, there are two basic confusions here. The first is that we're not talking about OMFGIMGONNAKILLYOU munchins, we're talking about wizards, which are quite simply extremely powerful. It's an entirely separate issue from obnoxious players. The second confusion is that a character class which is significantly more powerful than another, but which the DM can target with measures like thought eaters or wild magic zones to remove or mess up its power, does not become less powerful thereby. You seem to be arguing that it's OK for a class to be designed with too much power because the DM can punish the player for exercising it. That doesn't change the fact that the class has too much power; the DM can punish a player for doing anything disruptive. Punitive DMing is bad form anyway.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Or, you know, the player accepts the fact that he'll be useless for one encounter out of every hundred, and has fun atomizing the other ninety nine.

The presence of Great Power attracts the presence of other Great Powers.

Seriously. If you have a DM with even the mildest experience as a munchkin, there are more than enough rules out there to screw any munchkinning player to the wall. Talking Titanium extra thick threaded screws here.

And seriously, you're playing Russian Rulette with wild magic zones. No player worth their salt is stupid enough to tempt a skilled DM into using them.

[Fax Celestis]

The presence of Great Power attracts the presence of other Great Powers.

Seriously. If you have a DM with even the mildest experience as a munchkin, there are more than enough rules out there to screw any munchkinning player to the wall. Talking Titanium extra thick threaded screws here.

And seriously, you're playing Russian Rulette with wild magic zones. No player worth their salt is stupid enough to tempt a skilled DM into using them.

Wild Magic is not always the answer. There are spells that negate its effects, both temporary and permanent (see the "Mending the Weave" chapter in the Faerun Corebook), and there are also classes (Wild Mage) that make it so that Wild Magic zones are actually beneficial to you.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Doesn't really matter what edition of Psionics. ;D

Well, there are two basic confusions here. The first is that we're not talking about OMFGIMGONNAKILLYOU munchins, we're talking about wizards, which are quite simply extremely powerful. It's an entirely separate issue from obnoxious players. The second confusion is that a character class which is significantly more powerful than another, but which the DM can target with measures like thought eaters or wild magic zones to remove or mess up its power, does not become less powerful thereby. You seem to be arguing that it's OK for a class to be designed with too much power because the DM can punish the player for exercising it. That doesn't change the fact that the class has too much power; the DM can punish a player for doing anything disruptive. Punitive DMing is bad form anyway.

Ok I won't argue against the fact that 3rd Edition was a horrible botching of the rules. I won't argue that Wizards were made all powerful and in many cases, more resemble Magic: The (Money) Gathering than AD&D.

I am going to argue, however, that as long as people insist on playing 3rd edition, their DMs need to buck up and figure out how to handle the situation. There are ways to handle an over powered/imbalanced class other than whining.

The truth of the matter is, Wizards will only ever be made more and more powerful as long as WoTC controls AD&D franchise. You're never going to avoid that fact. The fact the RPGA supports WoTC decisions, really puts the monkey wrench into any hopeful flights of fantasy that WoTC will limit the monster they have created.

Over Powered Wizards are good for business.



So DMs need to now start concentrating on how to beat down the super powerful wizards.

Wild and Dead Magic Zone random encounter effects are a suggestion.

In spell jammer there was something called the Philostigon (sp?). Use those rules to create some sort of Fog or Weather pattern that has similar properties. Man, were those Spell Jamming encounters instant death for Wizards or what.

Finally, create anti magic NPCs, send your characters to meet people like Lord Soth, who can reflect magic spells upon the caster.

I see no problem using these simple tricks to lay the beat down on Over Powered Wizards.



Some people used to think Assassins and Ninjas were Over Powered, until one simple introduction:

Assassin Guilds/Ninja Guilds

The simple addition of such guilds allowed DMs to severely limit players by creating organized crime boundaries.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Wild Magic is not always the answer. There are spells that negate its effects, both temporary and permanent (see the "Mending the Weave" chapter in the Faerun Corebook), and there are also classes (Wild Mage) that make it so that Wild Magic zones are actually beneficial to you.

-_- grrr. Faeron sucks. WoTC sucks. RPGA sucks.

Ok forget that. start making higher level mages who want to steal the Party Member's power.

Use things such as Spell Shields which turn normal spell damage into healing damage for wizards, thus forcing the player's hand.

[Temp]

in many cases, more resemble Magic: The (Money) Gathering than AD&D.

What in Hell are you talking about?

The truth of the matter is, Wizards will only ever be made more and more powerful as long as WoTC controls AD&D franchise.

The more you post on this, the more I wonder if you've actually played AD&D.

[Fax Celestis]

-_- grrr. Faeron sucks. WoTC sucks. RPGA sucks.

Tell me, what do you like? You seem like a very spiteful young man, full of hate and ire about this entire hobby.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

What in Hell are you talking about?
The more you post on this, the more I wonder if you've actually played AD&D.

Maybe if you actually read some of the M$TG Novels you'd understand what I mean. There's a lot that was added to AD&D wizards in 3e that makes them look more like those god awful WoTC creations.

I guarantee you, so many of these problems I keep reading about didn't exist in 2nd edition.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Tell me, what do you like? You seem like a very spiteful young man, full of hate and ire about this entire hobby.

Excuse me, but aren't you the one who said no RPG should use tables.


I've explained what I like more than enough times, it's not my problem you don't know what I like or dislike.

[tainsouvra]

Wizards build these DPS OMFG IMGONNABEAT YOU DOWN characters because they've neven been shown the frailty of their class.

If you think damage is what makes a Wizard strong, then frankly you don't know the kind of Wizard that is causing problems in the first place. You might want to back up a bit here.

[Thinker]

I have a similar method of dealing with overpowered classes. I let my players play anything they choose, but if someone plays someone who could be overpowered I simply have someone kill him with no save or attack roll. We're roleplayers, not rollplayers! I hate Faerun and Greyhawk and Dragonlance and really everything that got converted to 3.5, except Ravenloft. Really the answer to overpoweredness is to be even more overpowered. You're the DM and that means you can instakill anyone who disagrees with you!

[tainsouvra]

Excuse me, but aren't you the one who said no RPG should use tables.

I've explained what I like more than enough times, it's not my problem you don't know white I like or dislike.

Each thread needs to be taken on its own merits, without baggage from other threads.

[Fax Celestis]

I have a similar method of dealing with overpowered classes. I let my players play anything they choose, but if someone plays someone who could be overpowered I simply have someone kill him with no save or attack roll. We're roleplayers, not rollplayers! I hate Faerun and Greyhawk and Dragonlance and really everything that got converted to 3.5, except Ravenloft. Really the answer to overpoweredness is to be even more overpowered. You're the DM and that means you can instakill anyone who disagrees with you!

And how are you supposed to roleplay if your character is deceased?

[Dalboz of Gurth]

I have a similar method of dealing with overpowered classes. I let my players play anything they choose, but if someone plays someone who could be overpowered I simply have someone kill him with no save or attack roll. We're roleplayers, not rollplayers! I hate Faerun and Greyhawk and Dragonlance and really everything that got converted to 3.5, except Ravenloft. Really the answer to overpoweredness is to be even more overpowered. You're the DM and that means you can instakill anyone who disagrees with you!

Well, a DM doesn't always need to think of something more powerful than the player. What you or anyone else really needs to do as a DM is to think of a way to depower their players, emasculate them, make them cry and beg for mercy.

Like Superman and Kryptonite :D

[Fax Celestis]

Well, a DM doesn't always need to think of something more powerful than the player. What you or anyone else really needs to do as a DM is to think of a way to depower their players, emasculate them, make them cry and beg for mercy.

Like Superman and Kryptonite :D

And this quickly makes the game not fun for the players. And it's a game, right? So the purpose is to have fun?

[Dalboz of Gurth]

And this quickly makes the game not fun for the players. And it's a game, right? So the purpose is to have fun?

A player who has already abused the rules has attempted to destroy the fun.

In each game there is a certain amount of danger. Players who experience absolutely no danger or set backs to over come, are players who need to experience them.

If your idea of fun is to give the players whatever they want, then I suggest you take out a board game called: CANDY LAND and use that for your gaming sessions.

Even games such as the game of LIFE told you to go back 3 spaces or games like Monopoly which takes money from you.

This is a game with obstacles and the possibility of Bankruptsy or even Death. That's what's fun about it.