Wait Wait Wait

[tainsouvra]

Munchkins that playtested the 3e and 3.5 rules are a cause of the problem for the wizard class. Munchkins at WoTC who keep refusing to fix the problems they generated are the problem for the wizard class.

Quit throwing around made-up facts and actually check your sources, ok? 3E D&D was not playtested by munchkins. That, in fact, was part of the problem, it was only tested by people who had no interest in finding the limits of the system, nor in breaking it--only in seeing if it worked when used as intended.

If you're wondering how I know this, please use the forum's search function. Information on the playtesting group has actually been posted here before, and is still available to read. That thread actually has a ton of information on how 3E was designed that would be remarkably valuable to you.

[tainsouvra]

I did see the 3e rules, although it's been a few years. I did read through them. And regardless of your helpless attitude towards Wizards, I know that any skilled DM can handle the problem.

You did notice that most of the solutions you've proposed haven't been legal by 3/3.5E rules, right? Don't act as though it's a trivial problem to solve when, thus far, most of your solutions are actually illegal. You're shooting yourself in the foot by saying that it's easy to do, then publicly failing to do it yourself.

any time a dragon does not win initiative in his own lair, is when he or she is being run by a DM that doesn't do his or her research into designing proper dragon encounters.

The DM does not control initiative except by rule-ignoring fiat. Surprise and initiative aren't the same thing. Please review the 3.5E rules, it'll help you avoid making patently absurd statements like this in the future.

[Aquillion]

Quit throwing around made-up facts and actually check your sources, ok? 3E D&D was not playtested by munchkins. That, in fact, was part of the problem, it was only tested by people who had no interest in finding the limits of the system, nor in breaking it--only in seeing if it worked when used as intended.

If you're wondering how I know this, please use the forum's search function. Information on the playtesting group has actually been posted here before, and is still available to read. That thread actually has a ton of information on how 3E was designed that would be remarkably valuable to you.

For the record (for those who don't want to search), my understanding is that the only 3rd/3.5 wizards used in playtesting were heavily blasters. The other spells were never heavily playtested or examined.

Remember. 3.0 haste. Really, no matter what they say, I'm not convinced they actually playtested at all.

[tainsouvra]

For the record (for those who don't want to search), my understanding is that the only 3rd/3.5 wizards used in playtesting were heavily blasters. The other spells were never heavily playtested or examined.

Indeed, and thanks for the recap of the portion of that thread immediately relevant to this one

[OneWinged4ngel]

With relation to all these talks about "WotC only played blaster casters one way" and so forth...

If that's true...

Man, being a playtester for WotC must be the easiest bloody job ever. They don't have to actually do the job a real game tester has to do... they just play through the game as intended and have a good time (that was so far from what I got to do as a game tester it's not even funny. The game tester's job description is *to break the game as hard as s/he possibly can* and report back to the designers on the issue. Where I worked, actually, you were generally expected to break it at least 5 new ways per day when it was pretty far into development, and a lot more when it was early), then go in and get a paycheck written out and get their name connected with the world's most successful roleplaying game. No effort required.

Seriously, if these people can't even bother to read and consider the effects of Haste, let alone actually sit down and play with it, what the HECK are they getting paid for? I can't imagine what purpose they're supposed to be serving, beyond being like... I don't know, a focus group to come back and say "hey, we had fun playing."

[horseboy]

If you're wondering how I know this, please use the forum's search function. Information on the playtesting group has actually been posted here before, and is still available to read. That thread actually has a ton of information on how 3E was designed that would be remarkably valuable to you.

Because Swordguy PM'ed me the link once, and I never clean out my PM Box:
http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?t=49378

[Aquillion]

With relation to all these talks about "WotC only played blaster casters one way" and so forth...

If that's true...

Man, being a playtester for WotC must be the easiest bloody job ever. They don't have to actually do the job a real game tester has to do... they just play through the game as intended and have a good time (that was so far from what I got to do as a game tester it's not even funny. The game tester's job description is *to break the game as hard as s/he possibly can* and report back to the designers on the issue. Where I worked, actually, you were generally expected to break it at least 5 new ways per day when it was pretty far into development, and a lot more when it was early), then go in and get a paycheck written out and get their name connected with the world's most successful roleplaying game. No effort required.

Seriously, if these people can't even bother to read and consider the effects of Haste, let alone actually sit down and play with it, what the HECK are they getting paid for? I can't imagine what purpose they're supposed to be serving, beyond being like... I don't know, a focus group to come back and say "hey, we had fun playing."

Well, it's also important to remember: Before 3.0, things like multiclassing were much more restricted, there were no feats, wizards levelled more slowly, the equivalent to skills was limited, rudimentary, and optional, saves were generally better against less nasty and poorly-scaling spell save DCs, HPs were lower so blasting was better...

Basically, there was a lot less to playtest. There were still broken things, but there just weren't as many possible combinations to investigate, so playtesting was a lot more limited in scope. I think they playtested 3.0 as if it was AD&D, under the assumption that people would still play it like AD&D.

[OneWinged4ngel]

Well, it's also important to remember: Before 3.0, things like multiclassing were much more restricted, there were no feats, wizards levelled more slowly, the equivalent to skills was limited, rudimentary, and optional, saves were generally better against less nasty and poorly-scaling spell save DCs, HPs were lower so blasting was better...

Basically, there was a lot less to playtest. There were still broken things, but there just weren't as many possible combinations to investigate, so playtesting was a lot more limited in scope. I think they playtested 3.0 as if it was AD&D, under the assumption that people would still play it like AD&D.

Wow, that excuse sounds completely unprofessional. "It wasn't like the last game." That sounds to me like it only helps my argument that WotC's testers were horribly inept and amateurish. Of COURSE games are going to get more and more complex. It happens all the bloody time.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Wow, that excuse sounds completely unprofessional. "It wasn't like the last game." That sounds to me like it only helps my argument that WotC's testers were horribly inept and amateurish.

I award you with the dancing GIR medal of honor:

I agree 100%

[OneWinged4ngel]

I award you with the dancing GIR medal of honor:

I agree 100%

Wow, that's way better than the cookies I usually get. AWESOME!

[Kultrum]

Wait Wait Wait... When I started this thread I was just pointing out that in most threads about overpowered wizards batman is used as the class' base line. and like 3 people said something about that then it became more like WIZ4RdZ PWN n00bz LOLz, n0 WIZ4RdZ Iz SUX0R...

[NEO|Phyte]

Welcome to the internet.

[MCerberus]

Welcome to the internet.

Where the men are men, the women are men, 13 year olds are FBI agents, and C'thulu is the debate moderator.

[Kultrum]

Welcome to the internet.

I know but I think that there should be some way to punish people for hijacking threads, perhaps though some sort of forced feedback D&D

[Temp]

I think you've gotten responses, they're just mixed in with the debate.

OW4's point that most of this board seems to use TLN's guide as a sole [un-updated] resource is probably the most accurate.

[Kultrum]

I think you've gotten responses, they're just mixed in with the debate.

OW4's point that most of this board seems to use TLN's guide as a sole [un-updated] resource is probably the most accurate.

Must have missed that one when I made the thread I went to work right after and it took me this long to be bothered to comment.

[Dalboz of Gurth]

Wow, that's way better than the cookies I usually get. AWESOME!

glad you liked ^_^

[OneWinged4ngel]

I think you've gotten responses, they're just mixed in with the debate.

OW4's point that most of this board seems to use TLN's guide as a sole [un-updated] resource is probably the most accurate.

Yes. I agree that my point is the most accurate.

[UserClone]

I think my statement to Dalboz of Gurth could be best summed up as follows:

1. I recognize and respect your right to form your own opinions about dragons, wizards, D&D, flying castles filled with fairy ponies, et al.
2. I recognize and resent your feeble attempts to present and have them accepted as facts. Sugart*ts.