Belkar's Alignment

[ref]

After a comment I made on another thread about Belkar being CN...

I'd like to point out that when I said that, the Giant responded:

What comic are you people reading? When has there ever been any confusion on the point? Seriously, folks, Belkar is EVIL. Accept it.

Well, I want to say this: I've been reading The Order of the Stick (recently TM), and I still can defend Belkar's neutrality. In fact, the only definite evidences for CE are The Giant's quotes. ;D

(PS: This should be nested quotes, but I don't know how to do that)

[Xiander]

I am sorry to brake it to you, but harvesting kidneys for fun and killing teammates for personal gain in't neutral in any meaning of the word.

[Sneak]

Yes, but Chaotic Neutral isn't Neutral. I can see where those CN people are coming from, but I personally think I have to go with The Giant. And besides, why would he have to hold up the sheet if he wasn't evil?

[The Giant]

Then you don't understand the alignment rules at all. A person who commits Evil act after Evil act and no Good acts at all is Evil. Not "Neutral with Evil tendencies," there is no such thing as "tendencies" in the alignment rules. In order to be Neutral you need to either a.) commit no Good or Evil acts at all, or b.) commit a more-or-less equal number of Good and Evil acts. Not c.) commit a boatload of Evil acts without guilt or regret and no Good acts except those he is bullied into.

A partial list of Evil acts Belkar has performed or attempted to perform:
• Harvesting someone's kidneys who was no threat and had a Good alignment.
• Selling an attractive young woman into slavery
• Slitting the throats of helpless people
• Trying to kill an ally strictly to level up
• Killing three barbarians when he only needed to defeat (not kill) one of them
• Professing a desire to go back and kill his family and childhood friends in their sleep
• Throwing daggers at Roy just for fun

Plus countless acts of psychological abuse to his teammates for no reason other than his own amusement. And that doesn't count the 3 or 4 Evil acts from "On the Origin of PCs" that I don't want to list here.

Why on earth do people waste their time with this? I feel now like I could have Belkar turn to the camera and say, "Hey folks, FYI, I'm Chaotic Evil," and then kill and eat a fluffy puppy, and you'd still come here and say, "Well, I think he's Neutral Good."

Get over it, Belkar is Evil.

[Slibs]

Until I read Origins, I always just put it down to compensating for being a teeny little harmless woodland type creature. I mean he talked a "good" game, but never seemed to follow through on these things.

Well except the barbarian killing, but I chalked that up to thats what barbarians do. And he did tell Elan he only needed to "defeat" him for XP purposes.

As for the puppy, it depends what kind of puppy, if its a poodle it wouldn't change anything ;D

[Flak_Razorwill]

I feel now like I could have Belkar turn to the camera and say, "Hey folks, FYI, I'm Chaotic Evil," and then kill and eat a fluffy puppy, and you'd still come here and say, "Well, I think he's Neutral Good."

Get over it, Belkar is Evil.

*Gollum Voice*

Do it. Give in to your hatred. Make it a dalmatian.

But anyway, the big evidence for me was the blight immunity thing back in the way early strips.

[evileeyore]

I was willing to give Belkar the benefit of the doubt with the whole Unholy Blight thing. It could have been a good roll on his save. However consistent acts since then definitely tipped him into the unrepentent Evil category.

Even had Rich not come out and declared Belkar Evil, I'd believe it.

[Sylian]

He took extra damage from Smite Evil.

[chibibar]

remember that being Chaotic Evil doesn't mean that you have "no friend" Evil people usually have others around because of some alternative reasons..... like

1. need protection.
2. companionship (they do get bored being alone)
3. comedic value hehehe...

[Alfryd]

...commit a boatload of Evil acts without guilt or regret and no Good acts except those he is bullied into.

I do recall he was willing to rescue/heal Elan without notable coercion. Also, Owl's Wisdom seemed to shift his alignment all the way to Beatific. Then again, I suppose that was purely for humour. And even CE allows friends.
What a dilemma. I'm afraid you'll reveal V's gender next.

[BurntOfferings]

Why on earth do people waste their time with this?

I've never been in the "Belkar is not evil" camp, but I think I can answer this question: It's for the same reason people waste their time with any other trivial pursuit. It's fun!

I feel now like I could have Belkar turn to the camera and say, "Hey folks, FYI, I'm Chaotic Evil," and then kill and eat a fluffy puppy, and you'd still come here and say, "Well, I think he's Neutral Good."

But what if it's an eeeeeevil puppy? ;D

[Shiremaid]

Evil puppies are not cute and fluffy. They're like dragons, appearance reveals their true nature ;-)

I have been firmly in the Belkar is CE camp since I started reading this comic last year, but he's an adorable CE

[Grey Watcher]

Yeah, Belkar is pretty clearly Evil. Personally, I thought so when I read the Unholy Blight Comic (which, to me it seemed the thrust of the humor of that particular issue). And Belkar's passion for disemboweling, kidney harvesting, murder, mayhem, toying with Paladins, harvesting XP from teammates, and sexually harrassing his leader only serves as corroborating evidence. Now, Belkar does hang out with what appear to be three Good characters and two non-Evil ones for various reasons. Elan makes him laugh (#38, #102, #153), V is too powerful to cheese off (#20, #127), and, of course, he just likes the chance for attention (#42)

[Greebo]

For Belkar's reference:

Fluffy puppies are tasty and taste best after having marinated in garlic, basil, olive oil and cider vinegar for about 3 hours.

Deepfrying is even better.

Avoid poodles. They're high in LDL cholestorol.

[El Jaspero, the Pirate King]

I have been firmly in the Belkar is CE camp since I started reading this comic last year, but he's an adorable CE

That's the whole point of Belkar for me; alignment in D&D too often replaces roleplaying. Belkar is proof that an CE character can be more than a cardboard cut-out with "villain" written on it. A CE character can be witty, smart, even admirable. Maybe even someone you'd want in your party, if you can keep him properly motivated.

[Playelf]

I think it has a lot to do with maturity. 95% of players will read under the evil description : no regard for the sanctity of life (or whatever the wording is in their particular edition of D&D) and decide that means that they want to kill everything that moves.

While a sociopath is probably a good example of a CE character, it's not the only kind of person who 'can' be a chaotic evil. Anyone who is out for themselves and doesn't mind doing whatever it takes to make sure they come out on top is evil (and no, evil is not subjective in D&D, it is a rigidly defined concept nessercery to game mechanics, not a philosophical commentary) but that doesn't mean you can't be party-centric.

A party grants you:
Willing allies, who will fight, probably to the death, to defend you
A means by which to take on odds that would otherwise be impossible
A deterent for people who might want to do you harm
People to spend time with
A broad set of resources that were you not a party member, you would have to put considerable effort and likely money into obtaining
People who will invariably be able to back you up when some self-righteous paladin *cough*Miko*cough* decides that because you're evil, you're offensive to existance and must die, whether or not you've actualy done anything to hurt anyone or not.

Belkar's evil, he just sees the benefits of being in a party and since good allies are hard to find, is much happier killing their enemies, than people who could be dubiously called friends, and for whom he still has a good use

[Sylvius]

I wouldn't agree even that a sociopath is necessarily evil. He certainly isn't necessarily chaotic.

I think a Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral sociopath would be a really interesting character.

[Draedan]

Why on earth do people waste their time with this? I feel now like I could have Belkar turn to the camera and say, "Hey folks, FYI, I'm Chaotic Evil," and then kill and eat a fluffy puppy, and you'd still come here and say, "Well, I think he's Neutral Good."

Get over it, Belkar is Evil.

I reject your reality and substitue it with my own.

;D

[Eriol]

I reject your reality and substitue it with my own.

;D

I doubt your name is Adam Savage.

Though if it was, that'd be cool...

[evileeyore]

I wouldn't agree even that a sociopath is necessarily evil. He certainly isn't necessarily chaotic.

I think a Lawful Evil or Lawful Neutral sociopath would be a really interesting character.

Sociopathy can take many slightly different forms, but most sociopaths do follow strict codes of behavior, they just happen to aberant. Many are highly OCD.

Being a socially-adjusted 'sociopath' I can agree to to the Lawful connotation and the Evil. Although in myself I fear the long arm of the law far too much to ever commit to any crimes.

However unless they follow a complex code or have a very strict set of behaviors, I'd make a sociopathic 'non-tyrant' villian Nuetral Evil and just play up the OCD and code adherence. Otherwise you will overly confuse your players.

[Playelf]

Well technicaly speaking, psychopaths kill according to a specific code (i.e. lawful) whereas sociopaths kill on a much less select basis (i.e. chaotic)

[evnafets]

I feel now like I could have Belkar turn to the camera and say, "Hey folks, FYI, I'm Chaotic Evil," and then kill and eat a fluffy puppy, and you'd still come here and say, "Well, I think he's Neutral Good."

Belkar would never get away with that.
Thog would come in to save the puppy from being slaughtered. I can see it now:

belkar not kill puppy! 
thog like puppies - belkar is bad for try to kill puppy.

So there you have it.
Belkar is so evil that even Thog can tell.

The question is, would saving the puppy from Belkar make Thog of good alignment? ::) :o ;D

[Dark]

I think Thog is too dumb to really have an alignment. He's more like Neutral Henchman. He'll follow Nale's instructions because he doesn't know any better.

[evileeyore]

Well technicaly speaking, psychopaths kill according to a specific code (i.e. lawful) whereas sociopaths kill on a much less select basis (i.e. chaotic)

Ehhh... kinda. Actually the 'definitions' have changed again. They do so about every 10 years I've noticed..

Anyway a psychopath is someone that feels no empathy for other humans, or at least very little empathy. Often they have disassociative disorders that lead them to withdraw from society.

A sociopath is just a pyschopath that has committed a crime.

[Kish]

Belkar would never get away with that.
Thog would come in to save the puppy from being slaughtered. I can see it now:

belkar not kill puppy! 
thog like puppies - belkar is bad for try to kill puppy.

So there you have it.
Belkar is so evil that even Thog can tell.

The question is, would saving the puppy from Belkar make Thog of good alignment? ::) :o ;D

Yeah! Then Thog could join the Order, and annoy Roy by constantly reminding him of the stereotypes that Roy hates, while Belkar could join the Linear Guild in Thog's place. :P

[Corvis]

Well technicaly speaking, psychopaths kill according to a specific code (i.e. lawful) whereas sociopaths kill on a much less select basis (i.e. chaotic)

Technically speaking, those words aren't in technical use.

[Nightmarenny]

Ehhh... kinda. Actually the 'definitions' have changed again. They do so about every 10 years I've noticed..

Anyway a psychopath is someone that feels no empathy for other humans, or at least very little empathy. Often they have disassociative disorders that lead them to withdraw from society.

A sociopath is just a pyschopath that has committed a crime.

That would make 90% of Children Psychopaths.

Its good to see the Belkars alinment question writin in a way that people can't find some stupid loop hole just so they don't have to be wrong.


I also have never seen why people would think that "have no regard for life" means the same as someone who kills everyone he meets.

[ref]

A partial list of Evil acts Belkar has performed or attempted to perform:
• Harvesting someone's kidneys who was no threat and had a Good alignment.
• Selling an attractive young woman into slavery
• Slitting the throats of helpless people
• Trying to kill an ally strictly to level up
• Killing three barbarians when he only needed to defeat (not kill) one of them
• Professing a desire to go back and kill his family and childhood friends in their sleep
• Throwing daggers at Roy just for fun

(...)

Why on earth do people waste their time with this? I feel now like I could have Belkar turn to the camera and say, "Hey folks, FYI, I'm Chaotic Evil," and then kill and eat a fluffy puppy, and you'd still come here and say, "Well, I think he's Neutral Good."

Get over it, Belkar is Evil.

Let's see: Harvesting kidneys... when was that?

Selling a woman into slavery is evil? it depends... Chaotic, sure. But if the woman herself is evil...

Slitting throats, eh? My theory is that Belkar's culture allows that and he can't understand not every culture is the same (there's one thing that Belkar says on Origin of PCs that might show there's a culture clash). Belkar has low WIS.

Kill an ally to level up? Munchkinism, not evilness. Belkar saw how all the other party members levelled up and tried to break the system, to find a loophole. First he killed a rat. This didn't work and tried to defeat a PC. When dissuaded, he proceeded to abuse the Roleplaying Bonus. Vaarsuvius told she was expecting to kill Belkar for scribing scrolls and noone said she was evil.

We should also learn not to believe everything Belkar says. He likes to play jokes, either verbal or practical. There have been several examples of this twisted humor sense.

Some more notes:

Unholy Blight can be because of a lousy damage roll.

Owl's Wisdom doesn't change alignment, and Belkar's thoughts when under that spell's effects clearly show a non-evil character.

Killing surrendering goblins is not evil (although definitely chaotic), if we take into account those goblins were working for Xykon.

There's a bonus story in Dungeon Crawlin Fools that also shows Belkar is not inherently evil.

OK, why do I waste time on this? someone already said so, because it's fun. And we the readers read this comic for fun :) Again, your quotes of Belkar being evil are the only things that can't be disproved.

Lead sheet COULD be true. Or, a legit defense to alignment detection spells. Casting alignment detection spells on someone is very rude.

Or, maybe, just maybe, Belkar thinks he's evil (I don't know if that's even possible...) again, low wisdom would cause Belkar to see only one definition of "defeat". (see Haley's and Belkar's exchange over the death of Trigak).

I'm just saying it's not explicitly shown in the comics.

btw, I'd appreciate you be a little more careful... I wasn't offended, but you did say my theory of Belkar being CN implies I don't understand the rules... thanks :)

[Nightmarenny]

Let's see: Harvesting kidneys... when was that?

Selling a woman into slavery is evil? it depends... Chaotic, sure. But if the woman herself is evil...

Slitting throats, eh? My theory is that Belkar's culture allows that and he can't understand not every culture is the same (there's one thing that Belkar says on Origin of PCs that might show there's a culture clash). Belkar has low WIS.

Kill an ally to level up? Munchkinism, not evilness. Belkar saw how all the other party members levelled up and tried to break the system, to find a loophole. First he killed a rat. This didn't work and tried to defeat a PC. When dissuaded, he proceeded to abuse the Roleplaying Bonus. Vaarsuvius told she was expecting to kill Belkar for scribing scrolls and noone said she was evil.

We should also learn not to believe everything Belkar says. He likes to play jokes, either verbal or practical. There have been several examples of this twisted humor sense.

Some more notes:

Unholy Blight can be because of a lousy damage roll.

Owl's Wisdom doesn't change alignment, and Belkar's thoughts when under that spell's effects clearly show a non-evil character.

Killing surrendering goblins is not evil (although definitely chaotic), if we take into account those goblins were working for Xykon.

There's a bonus story in Dungeon Crawlin Fools that also shows Belkar is not inherently evil.

OK, why do I waste time on this? someone already said so, because it's fun. And we the readers read this comic for fun :) Again, your quotes of Belkar being evil are the only things that can't be disproved.

Lead sheet COULD be true. Or, a legit defense to alignment detection spells. Casting alignment detection spells on someone is very rude.

Or, maybe, just maybe, Belkar thinks he's evil (I don't know if that's even possible...) again, low wisdom would cause Belkar to see only one definition of "defeat". (see Haley's and Belkar's exchange over the death of Trigak).

I'm just saying it's not explicitly shown in the comics.

btw, I'd appreciate you be a little more careful... I wasn't offended, but you did say my theory of Belkar being CN implies I don't understand the rules... thanks :)

Not to be rude but he didn't impy anything he told everyone who consided that a ligit theory that they didn't understand the rules or infact what make evil at all.

Slavery is infact evil. It is not at all chaotic if the Law allows it(which it probably did somewhere) and pretty much any everything he did was evil from start of comic to now. Even the good things he did were not really good per-say. Taking rescueing Elan as an example. He clearly stated why he was doing it. Elan is funny and gives Belkar enjoyment he did for selfish gain(killing bandits and getting more enjoyment out of Elan and maybe some Xp) and had shown already that he didn't care if Elan died(trying to kill him himself)

And to add to all of that he tried to hide his alinment from someone who would evisorate him should she find out his alinment.

I'm sorry if this comes off as rude but really that theory made no sense what so ever. :P

[Draedan]

Even the good things he did were not really good per-say. Taking rescueing Elan as an example. He clearly stated why he was doing it. Elan is funny and gives Belkar enjoyment he did for selfish gain(killing bandits and getting more enjoyment out of Elan and maybe some Xp) and had shown already that he didn't care if Elan died(trying to kill him himself)

If you think about it, EVERYTHING we do is selfish, even the stuff we do for others. We do things for others when it makes US feel good to do it. IE: you like it when others are happy with you or you defend someone you dont like because you feel it is the right thing to do and would feel bad if you didnt.

Do you have friends that make you laugh? Shame on you for being so selfish!

And to add to all of that he tried to hide his alinment from someone who would evisorate him should she find out his alinment.

If someone was going to kill me should they discover they dont like my alignment, I would try to hide it too!

And for the record, yes, Belkar is evil. I just like playing devils advocate ;D