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  1. - Top - End - #361
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Hey, I was trying not to break Godwin's Law! :p

    But anyway, lawful good is quite capable of at least tolerating crimes against sentient life.

    Ever read/play any of the Planescape supplements? The Harmonium more or less got together and committed ethnic cleansing against the elves and the pixies and the other chaotic races on their home planet. Sure, perhaps the lawful evil members enjoyed doing it the most, but nothing indicated that Lawful Good objected to what happened.

    Heck, in one of the Planescape supplements, you have to go rescue a Nic'Epona or two from Lawful Good antagonists. No, the Nic'Epona aren't evil, they were being experimented on or something.
    \"All that I have ever loved in life has been lost to me forever. Never again shall I give into the delusion of love, for all that I love is anathema. All that remains of me is an image of a young girl not yet lost, for the power of Velsharoon is the power of eternal youth.\" &&&&- Kadislan the White

  2. - Top - End - #362
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by DeathQuaker
    Miko is right, of course.

    Roy is also right, of course. :)
    I couldn't have put it better myself, and that is the beauty of this pair of Comics. And yet, I think all parties have sufficient cause to feel hurt. Just because it hurts doesn't make it wrong.

    As warm and fuzzy as it makes me feel to see Roy displaying enough maturity to confront Miko with his feelings and, at the same time deliver a courteous apology for his previous mistreament of her, I do understand Miko's pain. She's been working with people who have, in one form or another, been openly hostile from the day they met (whether it's open combat, sexual harrasment, or getting ridiculously inflated bills for a relatively simple service). Whether or not they have reason to be upset doesn't help with the feeling of isolation. So, Miko at last sees a chance to open up to one of her current companions, only to get the verbal kick in the teeth. Yes, she deserved, and she's smart enough to realize that, which probably just makes it hurt all the more. I sincerely hope that this is a chance for Miko to develop as a character, and maybe we can learn more about her than the stern face she presents to a hostile world.
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  3. - Top - End - #363
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    She did not "deserve" it. At least, she didn't deserve the delivery. He could have simply said "the feeling has passed" or something.
    \"All that I have ever loved in life has been lost to me forever. Never again shall I give into the delusion of love, for all that I love is anathema. All that remains of me is an image of a young girl not yet lost, for the power of Velsharoon is the power of eternal youth.\" &&&&- Kadislan the White

  4. - Top - End - #364
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadi
    Hey, I was trying not to break Godwin's Law! :p
    The best way to not break Godwin's Law is to not bring up the Nazis at all. It's a ridiculous comparison in this context.

    How many Stern Moral Pronouncements on every character's actions are needed for each comic, anyway? ::)

    Oh, I just know I'm going to enjoy seeing how this works out. ;D

  5. - Top - End - #365
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadi
    She did not "deserve" it. At least, she didn't deserve the delivery. He could have simply said "the feeling has passed" or something.
    Well I meant that her actions have earned the sentiment, even if having it put so bluntly to her face was a little harsh. Until now, she may very well have believed that the Order was only rankling under the indignity of being captured, not that they had any problem with her, personally. Now, it's been thrown in her face, rather harshly that , more than objecting to capture, the Order objects to her. And that's got to be a crushing realization.
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  6. - Top - End - #366
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Actually, I just realized. In all the bruehaha over the last row of this installment, I think the best line is being overlooked.

    "Really? 'Cause I kinda remember assassins being involved."

    If anyone else said it, it would probably be taken as sarcasm, but coming from Elan, you know that the statement is absolutely unironic and that he is genuinely confused about what Miko has just said versus his memory of events.

    I love Elan. :-)
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  7. - Top - End - #367
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lilly
    The Fairy Modmother:Hey guys, starting on Monday, or with the next comic, we're getting rid of the monthly comic thread concept.

    We're going to be doing one thread per strip with the thread number in the title. It'll save some of the clutter, and be less intimidating than a 40 page monthly thread.
    About time. Why hasn't this been done before?
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  8. - Top - End - #368
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    Default Miko's strengths and failings

    Personally, I think Miko needed to hear why Roy is no longer attracted to her, not just that he is. I'll just reiterate what I said in another thread (Hey, why not?):

    Quote Originally Posted by Devils Advocate
    Miko might technically even be a better person than Roy, but she's less likable than Belkar. She openly looks down on those who don't live up to her standards of behavior. She seems to do good more out of a sense of duty than out of concern for others. She may be exceedingly noble, but she's not at all kind. At least, if she does have genuine compassion for anyone, it doesn't show.

    In the grand scheme of things, treating people with respect and considering their feelings might not be as important as killing evil monsters, but it's still a part of being Good, and it's something that Miko has failed to do, and horribly so. I frankly think she needed someone to tell her that.

    Not that the Order couldn't stand to take a few lessons from her...


    I think that part of the that reason Roy was so attracted to Miko was that he wanted to be. His initial reaction after meeting her was pretty much "Woo hoo! A hot Lawful Good human warrior babe!" and he then proceeded to disregard to the greatest possible extent any notion that she was less than his ideal mate. It was like he just refused to accept that their values were actually different in rather important ways. To the extent that he did so, of course, he disregarded who she really was, which both was disrespectful of her and set himself up for a letdown later on. But it's nice to see that he's gotten better now. ;)
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  9. - Top - End - #369
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    If the mods take issue with my use of hyperbole, then I shall respect their wishes.
    \"All that I have ever loved in life has been lost to me forever. Never again shall I give into the delusion of love, for all that I love is anathema. All that remains of me is an image of a young girl not yet lost, for the power of Velsharoon is the power of eternal youth.\" &&&&- Kadislan the White

  10. - Top - End - #370
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Duraska

    Where exactly has Miko "forced" her own ethics code upon them?! *She's arresting them under orders from her Lord. *She has often *suggested* that they do things to fit her code of ethics, but in the end, the Order of the Stick have always gotten their way.
    Okay, I admit that "forced" might have been a bad word to describe it but my point was that she's been lecturing them in a rather... unfriendly manner whenever they didn't follow her ethics. What she said at the begining of 250 is a good example.
    I understand why she's doing it and sometimes she's even right but it's still understandable why the OoTS are behaving rude to her.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duraska
    They lost a fortune due to their own actions. *Miko is blameless. *If the group hadn't insisted on staying at the inn, and if Roy hadn't insisted on pretending to be a King, they'd still be filthy-rich.
    Yeah, sure. But it's still understandable to behave "greedy" after you loose a fortune. I never said that it was Miko's fault or anything.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duraska
    I wish all "Anti-Miko" people would remember this when they go overboard claiming Miko is "totally self-centered." *
    Hey, when did I say I was anti-Miko? I happen to like her pretty much. I'm just saying that it's fully understandable that the Order doesn't.

    Quote Originally Posted by Duraska
    Apparently there's a double-standard. *If you're Miko and you carry out your duty, you're an evil, self-centered witch. *If you're Roy and Co, you can do anything you want, from taking part in the deaths of good sigil guardians, to destroying a magical world gate thus upsetting the balance of the entire plane, to lying about being a King and getting an inn completely blown-up.
    I never said anything about Miko being any of those things, my point is just that I can see why the OoTS feels that way. Miko is definitivly right from a Lawful Good point of wiew but most of the Order ain't LG (and Roy's another kind of LG) so it's no mystery that they piss each other off.
    And since I don't think I'm anywhere near LG, while I like Miko in the comic I probably couldn't stand her for more then a minute if she ever showed up IRL...

  11. - Top - End - #371
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher

    Well I meant that her actions have earned the sentiment, even if having it put so bluntly to her face was a little harsh. Until now, she may very well have believed that the Order was only rankling under the indignity of being captured, not that they had any problem with her, personally. Now, it's been thrown in her face, rather harshly that , more than objecting to capture, the Order objects to her. And that's got to be a crushing realization.
    I don't think it's got to be. I mean, do you think it would really hurt Haley or Vaarsuvius to realize that Miko genuinely holds them in contempt? (In fact, do you think they wouldn't realize that immediately if they cared enough to think about it?) Do you think Miko values their opinion any more than they value hers? I think "no" and "no," personally.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  12. - Top - End - #372
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher

    I couldn't have put it better myself, and that is the beauty of this pair of Comics. *And yet, I think all parties have sufficient cause to feel hurt. *Just because it hurts doesn't make it wrong.

    As warm and fuzzy as it makes me feel to see Roy displaying enough maturity to confront Miko with his feelings and, at the same time deliver a courteous apology for his previous mistreament of her, I do understand Miko's pain. *She's been working with people who have, in one form or another, been openly hostile from the day they met (whether it's open combat, sexual harrasment, or getting ridiculously inflated bills for a relatively simple service). *Whether or not they have reason to be upset doesn't help with the feeling of isolation. *So, Miko at last sees a chance to open up to one of her current companions, only to get the verbal kick in the teeth. *Yes, she deserved, and she's smart enough to realize that, which probably just makes it hurt all the more. *I sincerely hope that this is a chance for Miko to develop as a character, and maybe we can learn more about her than the stern face she presents to a hostile world.
    Wow, this just sort of summed up what I felt. You go Gray!
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  13. - Top - End - #373
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish
    I don't think it's got to be. I mean, do you think it would really hurt Haley or Vaarsuvius to realize that Miko genuinely holds them in contempt? (In fact, do you think they wouldn't realize that immediately if they cared enough to think about it?) Do you think Miko values their opinion any more than they value hers? I think "no" and "no," personally.
    Well, I think the question of where it's coming from is also a factor here. I don't think it would hurt her to hear it from Haley or V because she would expect them to say something like that. She would dismiss it as "sour grapes." But Roy, despite the arguments they've had and despite the harrasment, has gone out of his way to stick up for Miko's side of the story. And, just now, appeared to have been opening up to her even more. I think it hurt precisely because Roy was one of the few people she wasn't expecting to hear this sort of thing from. I hardly believe this is the first time she's been called some variant on "heartless, overbearing, busybody," but this is probably the first time someone she's come to view as an ally and a possible friend has done so. As for V and Haley, the same holds true for them. Miko's an enemy as far as they're concerned, and barely listen to her as is. Plus, they're hardly alone, as they've got each other and their fellow OotSers to turn to for friendship and support.

    Roy being the one to say this to her hurts not just for the content, but the fact that it's coming from someone she's come to respect and trust, which gives the insult added weight. Out of the Order, Durkon is probably the only other person in any kind of position to deliver a crushing blow like that. And he's too nice a guy to do it. From Elan, Miko could dismiss it as foolishness, from V or Haley, she chalks it up to resentment, from Belkar, she'd probably suspect it was some kind of scam or something, but from Roy, she is forced to consider the horrible possibility that there is something to what he's saying.

    At least, that's my screwed-up analysis of it.
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  14. - Top - End - #374
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Jarawara
    To be an adventurer is to go where the adventure is, not to stay away and sleep safe and secure. Even if that particular safe and secure does happen to involve eating lichens for your meal and sleeping on sharp rocks.
    No no, Elan showed that anything done by adventurers is an adventure. Besides, I'm sure there's a d20 supplement for eating lichens and sleeping on sharp rocks. Somewhere. d20 Clan of the Cave Bear?

  15. - Top - End - #375
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by McScope
    now Miko might remember that she swore that "her blades would be bathed in the blood of those responsible" for destroying the gate
    ,http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gian...tscript?SK=120
    She already did that.

    http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gian...tscript?SK=200
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  16. - Top - End - #376
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    i just think Roy is taking a lesson from belkar, soften up your victim by making them happy before destroying their spirit.

    ;D
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  17. - Top - End - #377
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher
    Roy being the one to say this to her hurts not just for the content, but the fact that it's coming from someone she's come to respect and trust, which gives the insult added weight.
    You think she's come to respect and trust him? I don't. This is the first time she's called him by his first name. His apology made her briefly think he might be as worth respect as Durkon. Now she'll just (mentally) toss him back in the garbage bin with Haley and Vaarsuvius.

    I guess we'll see who's right Wednesday. Unless the comic cuts to Xykon now or something, of course. :P
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  18. - Top - End - #378
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Ouch, burn.
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  19. - Top - End - #379
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadi
    She did not "deserve" it. *At least, she didn't deserve the delivery. *He could have simply said "the feeling has passed" or something.
    Oh no, she deserved it.

  20. - Top - End - #380
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Grey Watcher
    Out of the Order, Durkon is probably the only other person in any kind of position to deliver a crushing blow like that. *And he's too nice a guy to do it.
    I'm not sure Hilgya would agree, though her opinion is probably a bit biased by now. ;)
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  21. - Top - End - #381
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    I wonder if Durken feels like trying one his femine side? That would be fun, have it slowly be rotated around the Party, mayby put it on Miko?
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish
    You think she's come to respect and trust him? I don't. This is the first time she's called him by his first name. His apology made her briefly think he might be as worth respect as Durkon. Now she'll just (mentally) toss him back in the garbage bin with Haley and Vaarsuvius.

    I guess we'll see who's right Wednesday. Unless the comic cuts to Xykon now or something, of course. :P
    I completely agree. It's true that Miko is overbearing and selfrighteous but the context of telling her was all wrong for Roy.
    First he tells soemthing nice so that she lowers her arms and then he delivers a punch to the face. Not a good way if you want someone to listen to what you have to say.

    But conflicts are the salt in the soup and the story would be more boring if Roy wouldn't act on his impules. ;)

  23. - Top - End - #383
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Gosh don't you just love Elan?
    He's so right.

    And way to go Roy! Haleys reaction is precicely how I felt :D

    As for Miko being right, I disagree. The Order might have done some not so great things (impersonating a king and stuff) but it is as Elan says, the assasins did the blowing up stuff. If it wasn't for the Order, at least one person (a certain king..) would have been killed. Now noone has.
    Miko never started out with a good opinion of the order and thus automaticaly thinks everything would be their fault. It's not like she has made any effort to try and get all the specifics.
    She just draws her conclusions to fast.
    She doesn't even grant them points for trying to help and trying to do the right thing.
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  24. - Top - End - #384
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Okay, Miko deserved that. She's been disrespecting everyone in the party besides maybe Durkon, and she got whats coming to her. She must not care about some Paladin special abilities if charisma was her dump stat, like it seems to be.
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    No, no, NO! The target of the assassins was the king of Nowhere, which wasn't on the inn. The king we've seen is the king of Somewhere. If the Oots had slept on the mud there'd be noone killed.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eriol
    Calling [Miko] a Nazi is pretty extreme.
    Totally agree. But hey, maybe that's what Haley said? ;)

    I've always defended Belkar being CN even when the Giant said he was evil... But Roy, I call shenanigans! Immeadite shift to LE I say. Roy, things aren't done this way.

    Roy isn't worthy to lead this party anymore, sad as it can be.
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    Quote Originally Posted by Tamis
    As for Miko being right, I disagree. The Order might have done some not so great things (impersonating a king and stuff) but it is as Elan says, the assasins did the blowing up stuff.
    Actually, Belkar did the blowing up stuff. :P
    She doesn't even grant them points for trying to help and trying to do the right thing.
    There's this thing about telling people, "The assassins were trying to kill me," and leaving out relevant details like "because I was impersonating a king." It means you don't get to hold it against them if they presume your efforts to stop said assassins were self-interested (albeit an understandable self-interest--Miko has yet to indicate she thinks it inappropriate of Roy not to let himself get assassinated...not that I'd actually blame her if she did now...) instead of being motivated by a desire to save a king.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  27. - Top - End - #387
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Ah, that was sweet.

    And yes, I will accept that Miko is right. However, there's a lot of justification for the Order's reaction. It's not just that no-one likes a "I told you so" like that, but part of her argument against them is that they should've slept in a muddy ditch with sharp rocks in instead of an inn that was directly opposite on the road. And there are many other reasons why Roy's right that she really is an overbearing self-righteous bitch:

    • To start with, the fact that she kicked their butts without even stopping to listen to their side of the story didn't help much.
    • Ah, unprompted violence in the third panel of 202.
    • Miko insisted without being prompted that the OotS's "filthy lucre" was secured with unLawful means.
    • As a prime example of her contempt for Roy's authority and the wellbeing of the party, she awoke that party of ogres and waited for them to finish eating before attacking.
    • Do you really think being called "Elf" is something that'd encourage someone to have a nice opinion of her? In fact, Miko has never bothered to learn anyone's names properly.
    • In V's words: "she has seized control of this party, to the point where she now feels she can direct us in battle."
    • Anyone remember Roy and Miko's little chat about the ethical treatment of prisoners in 223?
    • For Christ's sake, she even shouted at a member of the hotel staff for removing the tag from her matress.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Marller
    I completely agree. It's true that Miko is overbearing and selfrighteous but the context of telling her was all wrong for Roy.
    First he tells soemthing nice so that she lowers her arms and then he delivers a punch to the face. Not a good way if you want someone to listen to what you have to say.
    I don't think Roy really cares if she listens.

    Roy is a warrior. She was pretty much verbally attacking him and his troupe. He'd reached his limit. Roy disarmed his opponent and then dealt the Coup de Grace.

    In otherwords - he fought the battle of wits with the strategy of a true MBA. ;)

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish
    There's this thing about telling people, "The assassins were trying to kill me," and leaving out relevant details like "because I was impersonating a king." It means you don't get to hold it against them if they presume your efforts to stop said assassins were self-interested (albeit an understandable self-interest--Miko has yet to indicate she thinks it inappropriate of Roy not to let himself get assassinated...not that I'd actually blame her if she did now...) instead of being motivated by a desire to save a king.
    But if the real king was there and there was an attempt on his life, the order would help him, wether or not Roy is the target of the assasins, he would try to stop them.
    (And yes, Belkar did the blowing up stuff. But not on purpose, he was chasing the lawyer. (Of course he would have done the blowing up on purpose if he had been paying attention :))


    And I didn't confuse one king with the other, but if Roy hadn't impersonated the king of nowhere the assasins would have waited in the inn for the arrival of the king of nowhere, at which time the order would have left already I believe.
    Somehow I doubt the king would survive the assasins. :)
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    Kish's Avatar

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    Nov 2004

    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Fire Wolf
    [*]Ah, unprompted violence in the third panel of 202.
    You're referring to--the angle at which she's holding her katana? (Well, it would be right through Durkon's head if she was holding it the way she was in the second panel.)
    [*]Do you really think being called "Elf" is something that'd encourage someone to have a nice opinion of her?
    Do you really think the phrase "your simple mind" is one that encourages anyone to go out of their way to treat one with respect? Or announcing that you consider helping dirt farmers a waste of your time and effort? Miko and Vaarsuvius treated each other with contempt from the beginning; most recently, Vaarsuvius' "it's amusing that the foul shrew died" speech put him/her very thoroughly in a one-down position to Miko, probably permanently--Vaarsuvius will never have grounds to complain about anything Miko does or says again.
    In fact, Miko has never bothered to learn anyone's names properly.
    "Not anyone" isn't a nice thing to call poor Durkon. Miko has, in fact, been perfectly respectful to the one member of the Order who has been at all respectful to her. Today, she briefly indicated willingness to extend the same treatment to Roy, before he threw it back in her face.

    And as modes of address go, "Greenhilt" scores on the politeness scale way above "baby."

    I've snipped some of your points without addressing them, as you might conceivably have noticed even if I hadn't mentioned it. :P Yes, Miko certainly has flaws. However, it would be at least as easy to write a thesis on the flaws of any given member of the Order. I think Miko compares favorably to all of them, with the possible exception of Durkon.

    Quote Originally Posted by Tamis

    But if the real king was there and there was an attempt on his life, the order would help him, wether or not Roy is the target of the assasins, he would try to stop them.
    And if they'd told Miko any of that, they could reasonably expect her to take it into account. By saying it reflects badly on her that she believes what they told her, you're saying that her failure to read Roy's mind and guess not only that he's lying to her but the whole convoluted, unlikely truth--is a failing in Miko. This looks like a badly stacked deck to me.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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