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  1. - Top - End - #541
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecan
    Why do people think she attacked them dishonorably? Roy told her they were not going with her any more unless they were in chains. They assumed that, without the rain, they could take her and that she knew it, so she wouldn't do anything.
    Agreed. She has a duty to bring them in if possible, slay them if not. Roy told her they were not going to go with her. To fulfil her duty, she must subdue them.

    The attack is completely within the lawful nature of her character. She is following her orders, in true Lawful Stupid fashion.

  2. - Top - End - #542
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Malachi, the Lich King
    I have to say that #251 kind of kills my enjoyment of the end rant of #250 by Roy. *I really can't wait until Miko is out of this strip. *

  3. - Top - End - #543
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Why do people think she attacked them dishonorably? Roy told her they were not going with her any more unless they were in chains. They assumed that, without the rain, they could take her and that she knew it, so she wouldn't do anything.

    They were unexpectedly (to them) wrong.

    It's not her fault they basicalyl challenged her to drag them off. Nor is it her fault she has Quick Draw.
    Here is a numbering of all character appearances in OOTS

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Well, I bet if any girl were to be called what Roy said, she'd kick everyone else's asses and she won't even NEED a katana.

    She could have just been weepy, but honor demands vengeance.
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadi

    I've never agreed with this.

    To me this seems like it's saying "Let the GM screw you over until after the session, in either case it has to be HIS time and not yours."
    i've never agreed with your reaction either. it means the whole session stops and becomes an arguement about the rules. no fun. no game. no way for me.

    i trust my DM. but if i had a problem with a ruling he made i would do as i said and talk to him after the session.
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  6. - Top - End - #546
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Poor Miko...*hugs Miko* I could never be a Samurai Paladin like her, since I recognize the contribution of the opposed axes to the quality of existence, I wish she could recognize that other perspectives like Neutral Good really aren't that bad...

    ::) I am so weird.

  7. - Top - End - #547
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Aaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaaand... on a more frivolous note, it appears that the title block has changed. As of #251, it's no longer The Order of the Stick, it's now The Order of the StickTM. I guess 250 strips is enough to accumulate a trademark.

  8. - Top - End - #548
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Marller
    Their back's are not turned. She immediately jumped them and they didn't expect that.
    Yes, which is the reason I said 'attacking them "with their backs turned," so to speak' (underlining added). It's the same way you can "backstab" someone in spite of standing in front of them. Bottom line is, I don't think someone who considers flanking/backstabbing "honorless" and "shameful tactics" has any business suddenly attacking in the middle of a conversation, heated as it might have been, just in order to get in some extra damage before anyone else even think to react. And the way I read it, that's what Miko did.

    I don't think, she would dishonor herself by not acknowledging their decision while they are unconscious.
    Please elaborate exactly what decision you refer to. Do you mean the decision that "[she has] to drag [them] there in chains?" It's not exactly the same as "you have to take us out and kill us while we're helpless." Yet that is what Roy fears would happen if he falls to Miko, and the reason he surrenders. (I assume that he surrendered under the condition that she wouldn't kill anyone--otherwise, she would probably have killed at least Belkar, as she now has further reason to assume he is evil, and she certainly has shown no compunction about killing people before.)

    Additionally, if Miko actually had any social awareness she'd know that nothing stated under a heated argument is absolute. But in any event, it's easier to just kill or at least beat everyone into submission. Hence, she's a borderline psychopath.

    Her class is paladin but she is a samurai in her culture.
    For everyone who doesn't understand why she does this, read the book Shogun by James Clavell. I'm aware that Lord Shojos realm is not Japan but the book can give you an impression what it might look like.
    The OotS and Miko had a major culture clash and neither side fared very well.
    This, I can easily agree with. I still have every intention to consider Miko borderline psychotic, as the definition seems to fit her well. If you want to argue that she can't be expected to be any other way and/or there is cultural bias involved (I haven't read the book you mention), that is a different argument, and it makes her no less psychotic in my eyes.

  9. - Top - End - #549
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylian
    Roy have Power Attack.
    Belkar is evil.
    we all know roy has great cleave(age)
    belkar = evil has been a given from ages ago


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  10. - Top - End - #550
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Okay, so:

    V is gagged to prevent him from casting (regretting not taking Silent Spell now, eh, elfy?).

    Durkon is free because he, of all the group, would actually agree to go along peacefully.

    Belkar is unconscious because, well, he's Belkar, and really, who would have it any other way?

    But...why is Haley blindfolded? Does she have a secret gaze attack that has been heretofore unrevealed? Is she just so darn charming that even Miko has to prevent her from utilizing her feminine wiles? Is she being taken into Batman's secret hideout? What's the deal?
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish
    *laughs*

    See, that's the beauty of it. The people who laughed at the end of #250 wince at the end of #251, and the people who winced at the end of #250 laugh at the end of #251.
    And then you have those that are generally bemused by both. :)
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    I don't care for all the 'she was perfectly justified to' arguments, all I know is that Miko is a totally insane Lawful Stupid bitch who deserves a slow and painful death.

    I totally agree with all Roy told her in this strip. She's not a good person, certainly not by my idea of what is a good person. I don't care what her alignment sheet says. She's one of those Lawful Moronic paladin types who bring shame to all decent LG paladins and she should burn in the fiery pits of Abyss for that. :)

  13. - Top - End - #553
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    I think we may have finally gotten to the very base of the reason that she treats them like ****. She's a samauri. A western paladin wouldn't have done that, because they are free men(and women, and demihumans) but to Miko, they are dirt, and in her culture, she could kill them for looking at her funny and be completely withing her rights, and not even be voilating her LG alignment. To her, if you aren't nobility, you may as well be an animal. This also brings up part of the reason they were coming with her in the first place: because she can kick their collective ass. Also, they weren't expecting her to actually attack them, but to her, not taking up that chalange woudl be a discrase to her honor. I don't really hate her, even though what she did is aweful by my standards, because she was acting LG according to her culture, while her actions are LN at best to a westerner.
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  14. - Top - End - #554
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Ignoring those who seem to have issues with certain characters or certain classes...

    Giant, thank you for 251 strips of great comedy and lovable characters. Sure some of them are annoying, but that makes us love (hate) them all the more.

    Let not those who have had a bad time with certain classes or DM plot devices distract you. Sometimes every party needs to be TUNSISed.* ;D

    *(Tied Up Naked, Sold Into Slavery.)

    Some of us appreciate the parody for parody's sake.

  15. - Top - End - #555
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    Just so people don't think I didn't give it some thought, here's how I pictured the battle.
    <snip awesomeness>

    Okay. Who wants to start a fund-drive to commission Mr. Burlew to draw that fight?

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  16. - Top - End - #556
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeman333
    But...why is Haley blindfolded? Does she have a secret gaze attack that has been heretofore unrevealed? Is she just so darn charming that even Miko has to prevent her from utilizing her feminine wiles? Is she being taken into Batman's secret hideout? What's the deal?
    Maybe it's so she can't see the lock to pick it.

  17. - Top - End - #557
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Hrm...I didn't consider the "interpreted Roy's statement as a challenge" angle before. I guess that's a valid reason for kidnapping them.
    \"All that I have ever loved in life has been lost to me forever. Never again shall I give into the delusion of love, for all that I love is anathema. All that remains of me is an image of a young girl not yet lost, for the power of Velsharoon is the power of eternal youth.\" &&&&- Kadislan the White

  18. - Top - End - #558
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kadi

    Oh I'll blame her.

    "I was only following orders" is never an excuse.
    . . .

    There is not an eye-roll large enough.

    Aaron "The Mad Whitaker" Bourque; nor, apparently, a disdainful eye-roll "smiley."
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  19. - Top - End - #559
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by eof
    Yes, which is the reason I said 'attacking them "with their backs turned," so to speak' (underlining added). It's the same way you can "backstab" someone in spite of standing in front of them. Bottom line is, I don't think someone who considers flanking/backstabbing "honorless" and "shameful tactics" has any business suddenly attacking in the middle of a conversation, heated as it might have been, just in order to get in some extra damage before anyone else even think to react. And the way I read it, that's what Miko did.
    200 the shameful tactics just MIGHT be that they are fighting her with 5:1 odds on their side rather than the detail of flanking. They're supposed to charge in one at a time and get beaten that way, watch any martial arts movie.

    In any case she did to them exactly what she did to the Ogres. If it is so horrible now why was it not dishonorable then?

    Further: They KNEW that's how she fights, KNEW that they had just challenged her, and KNEW that she, with some justification, thought she could take them all.

    She didn't attack in the middle of a conversation, reread the last few panels, she's not talking, they are ALL openly challenging her to combat except Durkon.

    If attacking when an armed group challenges you is wrong just WHEN do you think an attack is allowed?
    Does she need to hold their coats for them, or maybe she should give them time for a hot meal.

    If they weren't ready that's because they're morons, not because she did anything dishonorable. They assumed that she wouldn't attack them all, even though they met her when she attacked them all, they assumed if she did attack she could not win, even though when they met her she won.

    She's not required to be stupid, when the fight starts it starts, getting in the first shot when outnumbered 6:1 is just good sense. Just as gathering the Orges togather for area effect spells was just good sense.

    DougL

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish
    *laughs*

    See, that's the beauty of it. *The people who laughed at the end of #250 wince at the end of #251, and the people who winced at the end of #250 laugh at the end of #251.
    And the people who laughed at both get to laugh at both! :D
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  21. - Top - End - #561
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Freeman333
    But...why is Haley blindfolded? *Does she have a secret gaze attack that has been heretofore unrevealed? *Is she just so darn charming that even Miko has to prevent her from utilizing her feminine wiles? *Is she being taken into Batman's secret hideout? *What's the deal?
    A rogue is likely to have escape-artist skills. Being blindfolded makes it harder to use them (if only by preventing Haley from knowing when she is and isn't being watched).

  22. - Top - End - #562
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Wow...at least this answers my earlier question as to whether Miko was another PC or just an NPC...she's definately got some levels on the OOTS, and there's no way they'd let her party with them in the future after this. Some things just ruin possible alliances, and being put in chains is one of them.
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  23. - Top - End - #563
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by eof
    Yes, which is the reason I said 'attacking them "with their backs turned," so to speak' (underlining added). It's the same way you can "backstab" someone in spite of standing in front of them. Bottom line is, I don't think someone who considers flanking/backstabbing "honorless" and "shameful tactics" has any business suddenly attacking in the middle of a conversation, heated as it might have been, just in order to get in some extra damage before anyone else even think to react. And the way I read it, that's what Miko did.
    In Strip 215 it is clearly shown that Miko is not stupid. Giving them a advance warning to something they already know (she told them at their first meeting: trial or death) and while severly outnumbered would be really lawful stupid. The Order stated their opinion and after Roy ended it was nothing left but her response (note that Durkon who was against the break up has not a single scratch).
    All the roughness towards the two/one unwilling/evil members of the order to follow can easily interpreted as a warning, follow or die. She wasn't too far away while they argued. Why bother learning someone's name and getting attached if you have to kill them sooner or later?
    Normally samurais have to kill themselves to retain their honor after failure or become honorless and outcasts. I don't think Miko is willing to do that for people who don't give a whit about her. And it wouldn't serve the greater good, their innocence wasn't proven, that's the task the trial has. It's not her's to decide that.

    Quote Originally Posted by eof
    Please elaborate exactly what decision you refer to. Do you mean the decision that "[she has] to drag [them] there in chains?" It's not exactly the same as "you have to take us out and kill us while we're helpless." Yet that is what Roy fears would happen if he falls to Miko, and the reason he surrenders. (I assume that he surrendered under the condition that she wouldn't kill anyone--otherwise, she would probably have killed at least Belkar, as she now has further reason to assume he is evil, and she certainly has shown no compunction about killing people before.)

    Additionally, if Miko actually had any social awareness she'd know that nothing stated under a heated argument is absolute. But in any event, it's easier to just kill or at least beat everyone into submission. Hence, she's a borderline psychopath.
    Truly she has no more social awareness than the order. It is merely attuned to her society and Roy already stated antipathy as a woman and the other would leave anyway if not for Roy and Durkon. She has no reason to believe the decision is coming out of a heated discussion.

    I admit i can't be sure if she would really kill em once they are down.
    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    Roy realizes that he MIGHT take Miko down if he full attacks, but if he fails, she will likely take him out next and then kill the Order. He grudgingly surrenders.
    I don't trust Roy's sense motive to be infallible. She might as well spare them for Durkons sake and Miko didn't hinder Durkon from healing the others.

    Quote Originally Posted by eof
    This, I can easily agree with. I still have every intention to consider Miko borderline psychotic, as the definition seems to fit her well. If you want to argue that she can't be expected to be any other way and/or there is cultural bias involved (I haven't read the book you mention), that is a different argument, and it makes her no less psychotic in my eyes.
    Self control is something different than psychotic.
    I'm not talking about social bias. They simply don't understand each other, but they think they understand exactly what the each other is getting at.

    A small story out of the book (bear with me, i don't remember the details):
    In one chapter the master of the house (an English man) put an trout up on a hook and told the servants not to touch it because he wanted to eat it later (i don't remember what he wanted to do with that bird exactly). And he left the house for a few days for some reason. While he was away the neighbors complained about the awful stench that emitted from the house and finally the janitor of the house took the bird off and buried it.
    The master returned and found the bird gone, he asked who took it off. The servants said it was the janitor. He asked why the janitor did that and they said because the neighbors complained about the stench. He ordered the janitor to him and the servants told him he can't come he is dead. Shocked he asked why. They told him, that he committed seppuku because he disobeyed his master. Shaken he says, that that was unecessary it was just a bird. They tell him that he did it freely and it was necessary and that he did it for his family and his (the janitors) honor.

    I'm pretty sure most Westerners can't understand such a behaviour (or life by such a codex).

  24. - Top - End - #564
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    OK, this has been bugging me for a while now -- and perhaps it's my lack of knowledge of 3/3.5 rules, since I haven't played in years, but...

    It's my understanding that with the latest ruleset, Paladins no longer have the restriction of being LG. Essentially, they can be any alignment; they are "fanatical religious soldiers" for their respective god/goddess.

    Maybe that's an open interpretation that I've played with in the past and not in the ruleset, though.

    I guess my point is, WHY are people (Roy included) assuming Miko is LG? Maybe she actually IS LN, and that the god she's a paladin for is also LN.

    If I've misunderstood the new rules through inexperience, then just let me know. Hehe -- I need to start playing again...
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  25. - Top - End - #565
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Hrm...should The Order now commit seppuku over the dishonor of being taken prisoner by an enemy? :p (Not specifically a response to anyone, just a funny idea.)
    \"All that I have ever loved in life has been lost to me forever. Never again shall I give into the delusion of love, for all that I love is anathema. All that remains of me is an image of a young girl not yet lost, for the power of Velsharoon is the power of eternal youth.\" &&&&- Kadislan the White

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Omellette
    OK, this has been bugging me for a while now -- and perhaps it's my lack of knowledge of 3/3.5 rules, since I haven't played in years, but...

    It's my understanding that with the latest ruleset, Paladins no longer have the restriction of being LG. Essentially, they can be any alignment; they are "fanatical religious soldiers" for their respective god/goddess.
    http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm
    It seems Paladins are bound to be LG.

  27. - Top - End - #567
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    I'm going to go against the flow here and say I find Miko to be very well played.

    I also find it interesting that no matter what she does people are going to hate her... She gets criticized for being 'lawful stupid' because she has honor and a code that limits her actions. Yet when she is played smart she is accused of being dishonorable and should be stripped of her power (Like when she gets the upper hand in combat)

    I find her actions to be completely within the bounds of lawful good and wouldn't be surprise if she is well within the bounds of whatever her paladin code is. (It hasn't been explicitly revealed but I am assuming it is something Samurai-ish)

    This is why I think this way. The Order of the Stick are adventures, this means they are trained and willing to use tools of lethal force. In our world law enforcement would call that 'Armed and Dangerous.' Notice didn't say criminal yet.

    The diviners of the Sapphire guard (Which apparently are never wrong) say the Order destroyed the gate and damaged the fabric of reality. That sounds really bad... So I call it the real world equal to detonating a nuclear weapon with reliable intelligence on who did it. (If not exactly why they did it)

    It is quite logical therefore for anyone with a lot power and the interest in maintaining the fabric reality to want that stopped. It's a sign of both law and goodness of the Sapphire Guard and Miko's that the first choice is to bring the Order in to get the full story. So Miko goes after them. And like a good cop she follows and makes deductions based on the evidence, while being open minded enough to listen to counter evidence.

    Everything she finds points to the Order being evil, even her own observations of the group. So she plans how to apprehend them, figuring that evil people wouldn't come willingly and that some deaths might be unavoidable. Although her plans try to minimize that (Stunning attacks, Tanglefoot bags).

    Then in the middle of a potentially lethal confrontation she gains new information. Instead of waiting to sort things out later, she does it right then, at great risk to herself and her mission. All because she is good.

    During this 'revelation' party confesses to the 'crime' but is not evil. Given that the leader offers to come along willing she allow the group a lot of latitude for 'prisoners' (i.e. they aren't in chains and can make limited choice)

    While traveling it becomes clear that most of the party is ready to break free and go on there own. They are only held in check by their leaders willingness to submit.

    It is only after Roy makes it clear that he is changed he mind about following her does she return to violence. Given the clear hostility of the rest of the party, their 'Armed and Dangerous' status, and the new resolve of Roy, attempting to talk them back into following her is clearly unlikely.

    Please remember that Miko is the 'Arresting Officer.' She isn't a judge, lawyer, jury, or executioner. When she killed the bandit leaders it was self defense. Killing the Orge's were defending the innocent dirt farmers. Every time she attacked the Order it was the only option she could see to fulfill her orders to bring in 'Armed and Dangerous' people in to answer for what they have done. Of course there is a risk of killing the people she is try to bring in, but given the great nature of the charge against them it would be a tragic but acceptable possibility. Just like it is in the real world when the police try to bring violent criminals.

    I would also like to point out that in The Giant's post about how it might have happened, it's Roy's and Durkon's thoughts and feeling that she might kill a disable opponent. At no point have we see her do this. Attacking by surprise and killing someone that is already down are two wildly different things.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    We might be seeing a clash of two cultures. Roy is a freeman in the possibly anachronistic fashion of today. People are more or less equal in his mind to start off with.

    Miko, on the other hand, comes from a radically different society. She screams outrage because an inferior dared to insult to a samurai, caring less about the actual truth of the words. Where she comes from, she really has the right to act like she does. Justice and virtue are the standards that determine a sentient's worth, and her kind is by definition a paragon of both. Others are inevitably found wanting.

    Or I could be wrong and she could just be a total harpy.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by aaronbourque
    . . .

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant
    New comic is up.



    Hee. *;D
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