Order of the Stick: November II

[Brasswatchman]

Okay, what with the all the anti-Miko pro-Miko stuff going on here - and my own being bored - I thought I'd add my two cents in.

Generally, I agree with Roy's original understanding of Miko - I think this is her first time dealing with a situation that isn't black and white; her first time actually in an adventuring party (I'm guessing she was strickly a solo adventurer before this); her first time outside of a caste system. When a character - or a person, for that matter - is limited by her background and her range of experience, the true test of whether or not she's a good person is how she deals with new experiences that don't factor in to her usual way of thinking.

Admittedly, Miko hasn't done too good with that so far. I tend to think Roy was right to call her out; he makes a good argument in this strip. That having been said, I'm not going to count her out quite yet. It's going to be interesting - and entertaining - to see if she ever ends up soaking up any of Roy's argument.

[Sylvius]

I was fine with the unseen combat.

But then when Rich described it (in tremendous detail - thanks, Rich!) I was struck with one overwhelming thought.

Man they nerfed wizards in 3E. I haven't really played since 3E was released, but requiring a ranged touch attack is just absurd. Wizards can't hit anything - they never could. Making that a fundamental part of offensive casting is just idiotic.

Under 2nd edition rules, Miko so loses that fight. V owns her.

[Elethiomel]

200 the shameful tactics just MIGHT be that they are fighting her with 5:1 odds on their side rather than the detail of flanking. They're supposed to charge in one at a time and get beaten that way, watch any martial arts movie.

Any martial arts movie that's not with Jackie Chan, you mean? In those movies, he often gets attacked by several people at once. He's worked out a clever system to allow him to dodge, say, attacks from behind while he's engaged with another fight in front of him.

Also, some exceptionally well-coreographed martial arts movies lately have some good several-on-one fighting.

Man they nerfed wizards in 3E. I haven't really played since 3E was released, but requiring a ranged touch attack is just absurd. Wizards can't hit anything - they never could. Making that a fundamental part of offensive casting is just idiotic.

No, they didn't "nerf" wizards. Ranged touch attacks are much easier to hit with than normal touch attacks. And, many spells do not require ranged touch attacks. Disintegrate is a 6th level save-or-die spell. Save or die. It has the additional drawback of destroying loot. "Finger of death", which is a 7th level spell, does not require a ranged touch attack, and does not destroy loot. This gives magic users in 3E and higher more options, it does not make them less powerful.

[Kilkomir]

Okay, so:

Belkar is unconscious because, well, he's Belkar, and really, who would have it any other way?

Belkar is not unconscious, he is dead.
In round 3 he is at - 5 and after round 7 Durkon casts 3 more spells before they go. That means that Belkar is at least at -12. Last time i checked that means you're dead.

As I have written in the "How did Miko do it" post, I hope Durkon is allowed to raise him before it's too late.

I would hate to see Belkar gone from the party and the strip (Although Belkar haunting the party from the dead does appeal to me right at this moment) as he is one of my favorite characters.

[NEO|Phyte]

Belkar is not unconscious, he is dead.
In round 3 he is at - 5 and after round 7 Durkon casts 3 more spells before they go. That means that Belkar is at least at -12. Last time i checked that means you're dead.

stabilization roll.

[Jefepato]

A western paladin wouldn't have done that, because they are free men(and women, and demihumans) but to Miko, they are dirt, and in her culture, she could kill them for looking at her funny and be completely withing her rights, and not even be voilating her LG alignment.

You are not correct.

Alignment is absolutely objective. What's LG is LG everywhere. Killing someone for looking at her funny would take away Miko's paladin powers, no matter where she grew up.

It's clever how Miko is such a terrible person, and yet has managed to stay within her alignment this entire time.

BTW, Giant, I notice that in your battle description you have Belkar failing Will saves. Stunning Fist is a Fortitude save, which I think Belkar would have better odds on.

[Omellette]

http://www.d20srd.org/srd/classes/paladin.htm
It seems Paladins are bound to be LG.

See, this doesn't make sense to me. I guess it must have been a house rule, but why ONLY Lawful Good?

Does this mean that Evil gods can't have "paladins" for themselves? Does not a neutral god deserve a defender of ITS faith?

Doesn't make sense to me -- and I thought this was changed in 3rd Ed., much like the racial limitations were removed...

Ah well. If I ever pick up a new game, I'd like to see this as a house rule...

[NEO|Phyte]

See, this doesn't make sense to me. I guess it must have been a house rule, but why ONLY Lawful Good?

Does this mean that Evil gods can't have "paladins" for themselves? Does not a neutral god deserve a defender of ITS faith?

Doesn't make sense to me -- and I thought this was changed in 3rd Ed., much like the racial limitations were removed...

Ah well. If I ever pick up a new game, I'd like to see this as a house rule...

There are variant paladins for the other "extremes" in the SRD, but the core paladin is LG only

[Severian]

Belkar's not dead; he doesn't have Xs over his eyes. :)

[Duraska]

See, this doesn't make sense to me. I guess it must have been a house rule, but why ONLY Lawful Good?

Does this mean that Evil gods can't have "paladins" for themselves? Does not a neutral god deserve a defender of ITS faith?

Doesn't make sense to me -- and I thought this was changed in 3rd Ed., much like the racial limitations were removed...

Ah well. If I ever pick up a new game, I'd like to see this as a house rule...

Clerics are the 'core' class defenders of their diety's faith. There is a Champion of X (or Divine Champion) Prestige class that can grant some Paladin powers without necessarily being lawful good (they can be any good or neutral alignment I think).

The Blackguard is a prestige class for "evil paladins." But really, you could house rule in anything you want ( like purple, half-dwarf rangers ;))

[Omellette]

There are variant paladins for the other "extremes" in the SRD, but the core paladin is LG only

Yes, the Freedom, Tyranny, Slaughter trio. But what about Lawful Neutral Gods? I guess I think that ANY alignment can be espoused in a fanatical fashion.

For example, I picture Miko more as a fanatic of pure Law. Lawful Neutral, regardless of good or evil. The ONLY thing that's of any import is the following of the letter of the law.

Now, her Detect Evil/Smite Evil skills obviously mean that she's LG, not LN. But... Well, whatever -- the Giant's the man here, and he's got his reasons. I'm getting away from the comic now.

:-)

[Kilkomir]

Ok, maybe he's not dead.

I'm just saying that there is no reference in Rich's explanation of the events that gives me a clue as to Belkar succeding in stabilizing himself or Miko or Durkon healing him a single hit point.

If I missed something plz show me where.
In this case I would be happy to be wrong.

[Omellette]

Clerics are the 'core' class defenders of their diety's faith. There is a Champion of X (or Divine Champion) Prestige class that can grant some Paladin powers without necessarily being lawful good (they can be any good or neutral alignment I think).

The Blackguard is a prestige class for "evil paladins." But really, you could house rule in anything you want ( like purple, half-dwarf rangers ;))

Hmmm, OK...

Would Lay on Hands or Detect/Smite Evil be some of those Paladin powers they'd receive? Assume NOT evil, since that would imply more a "Harm Touch" (to use the Everquest expreission) and Detect/Smite Good set of powers.

[Gary_Schaper]

Hrm...should The Order now commit seppuku over the dishonor of being taken prisoner by an enemy?

Assisted seppuku seems not out of the question. ;D

EDIT: $@^&! typo.

[Eriol]

Ok, maybe he's not dead.

I'm just saying that there is no reference in Rich's explanation of the events that gives me a clue as to Belkar succeding in stabilizing himself or Miko or Durkon healing him a single hit point.

If I missed something plz show me where.
In this case I would be happy to be wrong.

I don't play D&D (or any variant thereof), but in Round 4 there is this line:

Durkon can't get to Belkar, so he casts Prayer for his team.

What does that do? Group heal of some sort?

Might be your explanation, but you guys will have to fill me in on what that line means.

[RawBearNYC]

I said this in the other thread (gawd, I hate it when people start new threads for OOTS discussions, these stupid splits happen).

Injuring and possibly killing criminals resisting arrest is not, necessarily, a not-Good act. It doesn't matter that the criminals don't think they fall under her jurisdiction. She had a mandate to bring back the Order. When they gave her the terms of their continued cooperation (being drug back in chains), she was compelled to meet those terms. Miko may have been willing to accept Roy's insults, but his decision to not continue with her back to face justice was what set her off.

[Kilkomir]

I don't play D&D (or any variant thereof), but in Round 4 there is this line:
What does that do? Group heal of some sort?

Might be your explanation, but you guys will have to fill me in on what that line means.

(This might be repeating someone else)

Prayer is a spell that boosts the cleric and his partymembers.
If the party members believe in the same god as the cleric they get a better boost then if they don't.
That is the spell in 3.0 if i remember correctly.(I haven't looked it up).

[BurntOfferings]

:'( I weep for the OotS. :'(

At least this time the Giant refrained from showing us the sword sticking out of Elan's chest. Bard-killer. ;)

Durkon should be ostracized by the rest of the Order. If he didn't do anything to earn some bruises, a gag, and a chain around his neck, then he didn't do enough for the team. And following Thor's will is no excuse, unless he actually believes it's Thor's will that the OotS be presented to Lord Shojo in chains (but then that by itself would be a good reason to shop for a new party cleric). Miko could've still led them to her master... while she's tied up across the back of a hobbled Windstrider (assuming the horse hadn't already died from kidney loss).

Edited for clarity about who, exactly, is tied up atop Windstrider.

[eof]

Why do people think she attacked them dishonorably? Roy told her they were not going with her any more unless they were in chains. They assumed that, without the rain, they could take her and that she knew it, so she wouldn't do anything.

Personally, I base it on her own definition of dishonorable.

Previously, she considered flanking/backstabbing (sneak attacks) honorless. Take a moment to consider flanking, and another to consider sneak attacks. What would be considered honorless about them? Flanking means it is easier to hit, but so is using a magical weapon. Is using a magical weapon honorless? I doubt Miko thinks so; I believe that she herself uses magical weapons (although there is no conclusive evidence, she seems to hit very often). Sneak attacks deal additional damage, but so does using a bane weapon (for instance). I doubt she'd consider dealing additional damage if possible to be honorless, either. So what makes flanking/sneak attacks honorless?

It is my interpretation that Miko would consider flanking and sneak attacks honorless because they take advantage of the foe when s/he cannot defend properly. In other words, it's not the effect, it's the context of the action. (Makes sense to me.)

And that is exactly what Miko does when she attacks the OOTSers; she takes advantage of the fact that they can't defend properly in order to do some additional damage, and hit better. The context of the action is the same. Thus, it would be dishonorable, by her own standards.

[Kilkomir]

I said this in the other thread (gawd, I hate it when people start new threads for OOTS discussions, these stupid splits happen).

Injuring and possibly killing criminals resisting arrest is not, necessarily, a not-Good act. It doesn't matter that the criminals don't think they fall under her jurisdiction. She had a mandate to bring back the Order. When they gave her the terms of their continued cooperation (being drug back in chains), she was compelled to meet those terms. Miko may have been willing to accept Roy's insults, but his decision to not continue with her back to face justice was what set her off.

First of all i'm sorry for posting about this in two places but after I did the first post I thought it would be better to talk about it in the normal post about the comic.

Second of all I'm not talking about whether killing Belkar is an evil act or not. I understand Miko's reasons for doing what must be done so the "criminals" can be put to trial.
I'm just saying that if Belkar is dead I hope he doesn't stay that way for long as I would miss him too much in the rest of the OOTS strips.

Thirdly if I'm way off and you're not adressing me RawBearNYC then don't take notice of me and my ramblings.

[Brasswatchman]

Okay, what with the all the anti-Miko pro-Miko stuff going on here - and my own being bored - I thought I'd add my two cents in.

Generally, I agree with Roy's original understanding of Miko - I think this is her first time dealing with a situation that isn't black and white; her first time actually in an adventuring party (I'm guessing she was strickly a solo adventurer before this); her first time outside of a caste system. When a character - or a person, for that matter - is limited by her background and her range of experience, the true test of whether or not she's a good person is how she deals with new experiences that don't factor in to her usual way of thinking.

Admittedly, Miko hasn't done too good with that so far. I tend to think Roy was right to call her out; he makes a good argument in this strip. That having been said, I'm not going to count her out quite yet. It's going to be interesting - and entertaining - to see if she ever ends up soaking up any of Roy's argument.

[manscatha]

I still don't think Miko could have beaten them if the DM hadn't fudged all her rolls. And this is the delusion I intend to stick to...

[Gary_Schaper]

Durkon should be ostracized by the rest of the Order. If he didn't do anything to earn some bruises, a gag, and a chain around his neck, then he didn't do enough for the team.

I disagree. Durkon is the only one presently acting in the best interests of the team. Unless they have decided that they in fact want to be bad guys and hunted outlaws, they need to figure out how to fix or atone for Elan's mistake with the gate.

(And to ostracize or kick out Durkon after all that they've put up with from Belkar... ::)

Miko could've still led them to her master... while tied up across the back of a hobbled Windstrider (assuming the horse hadn't already died from kidney loss).

Well, I didn't know that 3.5 paladin mounts magically blip back to the planes when not wanted, so... can they carry 5.5x the load of a normal horse, as well? They'd have to be stacked like cordwood in any event.

[Deleran]

A small story out of the book (bear with me, i don't remember the details):
In one chapter the master of the house (an English man) put an trout up on a hook and told the servants not to touch it because he wanted to eat it later (i don't remember what he wanted to do with that bird exactly). And he left the house for a few days for some reason. While he was away the neighbors complained about the awful stench that emitted from the house and finally the janitor of the house took the bird off and buried it.
The master returned and found the bird gone, he asked who took it off. The servants said it was the janitor. He asked why the janitor did that and they said because the neighbors complained about the stench. He ordered the janitor to him and the servants told him he can't come he is dead. Shocked he asked why. They told him, that he committed seppuku because he disobeyed his master. Shaken he says, that that was unecessary it was just a bird. They tell him that he did it freely and it was necessary and that he did it for his family and his (the janitors) honor.

I'm pretty sure most Westerners can't understand such a behaviour (or life by such a codex).

This story is bogus. Ritual suicide was a rite that could only be carried out by a samurai (amongst other reasons).

[manscatha]

I still don't think Miko could have beaten them if the DM hadn't fudged all her rolls. And this is the delusion I intend to stick to...

[BurntOfferings]

Well, I didn't know that 3.5 paladin mounts magically blip back to the planes when not wanted, so... can they carry 5.5x the load of a normal horse, as well? They'd have to be stacked like cordwood in any event.

You misunderstand. Miko would be tied up, not the Order.

[eof]

200 the shameful tactics just MIGHT be that they are fighting her with 5:1 odds on their side rather than the detail of flanking. They're supposed to charge in one at a time and get beaten that way, watch any martial arts movie.

It is quite clear that Miko is either at a significantly higher level or have some major magical items, or both. If not, she would not have been able to take defeat the entire six members of OOTS right there. (Yes, I include Durkon because while he didn't attack Miko, he certainly did participate in the combat on the OOTSers' side.) It might have been a close thing, but she did. A not entirely wild guess would be that she is about four levels higher than the OOTSers.

You are suggesting that in order for it to have been an honorable fight (by Miko's standards), each member of the OOTS would have needed to face her alone, one at a time. I don't think it would be honorable to demand that someone four levels than you must face you alone; in fact, I'd call that cowardice. It's not entirely unlike a teenager beating up a seven year old. While I'm not that familiar with Japanese feudal culture, I have a hard time picturing that they would have considered it honorable, either.

Additionally, if Miko would have considered it honorable, she would have attempted to face them one at a time, perhaps by attempting to seperate them from the rest of the party--why not, if doing so would have been honorable; it certainly would have improved her chances a lot? OR, she could even have started the first encounter by demanding that the OOTSers face her one at a time. But she didn't. No, instead the comment about the OOTSers using shameful tactics just happen to be said directly after Haley sneak attack her and Roy flanks her. I think you're reaching when you claim that it wasn't flanking/sneak attacking that she objected to.

In any case she did to them exactly what she did to the Ogres. If it is so horrible now why was it not dishonorable then?

Who says it wasn't? I'd be somewhat suspicious of a paladin who did what she did, the first kill was rather devious and IMHO not very paladin-like. In any event, there are several key differences: She knows that the ogres are evil, unlike (most of) the OOTS; the OOTSers had some sort of explanation for what she accused them of, for whatever it was worth to Miko; the OOTSers were willing (for the most part) to help the dirt farmers, which indicates some level of decency; she made sure that the ogres were aware that she intended to attack them; she waited until the ogres claimed they were ready. Quite a contrast.

Further: They KNEW that's how she fights, KNEW that they had just challenged her, and KNEW that she, with some justification, thought she could take them all.

She didn't attack in the middle of a conversation, reread the last few panels, she's not talking, they are ALL openly challenging her to combat except Durkon.

That all depends if you are willing to consider what the OOTSers said to be a direct challenge. It's a matter of context, and I'm pretty sure that Roy didn't mean it as a challenge. But that is just how I read it. Similarly, if an angry child who doesn't get his way yells "I hate you," I wouldn't think "Ooh, that kid hates me and maybe wishes me harm, I'm perfectly justified in killing it now."

If attacking when an armed group challenges you is wrong just WHEN do you think an attack is allowed?
Does she need to hold their coats for them, or maybe she should give them time for a hot meal.

If you want to go by the assumption that it was a formal challenge (which I say it wasn't; if the OOTSers had intended it as such, they wouldn't have been caught with their pants down), there'd still be some protocol involved. Stating that you accept the challenge and tell your challenger to be prepared would be honorable; charging in and taking them by surprise wouldn't.

If they weren't ready that's because they're morons, not because she did anything dishonorable. They assumed that she wouldn't attack them all, even though they met her when she attacked them all, they assumed if she did attack she could not win, even though when they met her she won.

If they didn't assume that she would attack them, how can they have meant it as a challenge to combat?

She's not required to be stupid, when the fight starts it starts, getting in the first shot when outnumbered 6:1 is just good sense.

Oh yes, there is no question about it not being good sense, just about it not being completely honorable.

Furthermore, it is quite clear that it was Miko who started the fight. Quite a violent nature, she has. Ever think maybe she could have considered other alternatives?

Just as gathering the Orges togather for area effect spells was just good sense.

Different situation. The ogres moved in on their own accord, and under different circumstances.

[Wrecan]

It is my interpretation that Miko would consider flanking and sneak attacks honorless because they take advantage of the foe when s/he cannot defend properly.

If that were true, she would never have learned Quick Draw and would never have attacked the ogres during a surprise round. Under your interpretation, it is always dishonorable to attack a foe who is flatfooted, but she does that all the time.

I think she believes flanked attacks are dishonorable because you aren't facing your opponent. If you cannot look your opponent in the eye when killing him, you are a coward. You are literally a backstabber. At least, that's what I think the issue is. Miko always faces her opponent, even if the oppenent if flat-footed.

In other words, it's not the effect, it's the context of the action. (Makes sense to me.)

Agreed, but you've taken the wrong context. It cannot be a prohibition on attacking people flatfooted as she does that to the ogres.

[Kish]

It's also interesting that Miko wasn't willing to hurt Durkon, even when that put her at a disadvantage. Each time he cast a spell within her range, she could have taken an attack of opportunity--if she has the Combat Reflexes feat (and she must have that or Deflect Arrows, as a second level monk), a completely free attack of opportunity, probably ruining his Heal and Cure Critical Wounds spells and thereby keeping the people she focused on putting down first from getting back up. So she did, in fact, put herself at a completely voluntary disadvantage in the battle to avoid hurting Durkon.

[DeathQuaker]

:
Durkon should be ostracized by the rest of the Order. If he didn't do anything to earn some bruises, a gag, and a chain around his neck, then he didn't do enough for the team.

Well, except for the whole "keeping them alive" part. :)

Given from what the Giant described, the Order would have gone down faster and Miko might have even killed them, had Durkon not been supplying them with healing and buffs throughout the combat. And the fact that he did attempt diplomacy and did not act against Miko probably helped persuade Miko in the end to keep them alive.

He doesn't look happy at all about the situation. But he is probably singlehandedly responsible for the fact that the Order, while bruised, is not broken.