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Thread: Order of the Stick: November II
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2005-11-30, 02:17 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Okay, what with the all the anti-Miko pro-Miko stuff going on here - and my own being bored - I thought I'd add my two cents in.
Generally, I agree with Roy's original understanding of Miko - I think this is her first time dealing with a situation that isn't black and white; her first time actually in an adventuring party (I'm guessing she was strickly a solo adventurer before this); her first time outside of a caste system. When a character - or a person, for that matter - is limited by her background and her range of experience, the true test of whether or not she's a good person is how she deals with new experiences that don't factor in to her usual way of thinking.
Admittedly, Miko hasn't done too good with that so far. I tend to think Roy was right to call her out; he makes a good argument in this strip. That having been said, I'm not going to count her out quite yet. It's going to be interesting - and entertaining - to see if she ever ends up soaking up any of Roy's argument.tinwatchman initiative tracker - free initiative tracker for the iPod and iPod Touch!
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2005-11-30, 02:23 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
I was fine with the unseen combat.
But then when Rich described it (in tremendous detail - thanks, Rich!) I was struck with one overwhelming thought.
Man they nerfed wizards in 3E. I haven't really played since 3E was released, but requiring a ranged touch attack is just absurd. Wizards can't hit anything - they never could. Making that a fundamental part of offensive casting is just idiotic.
Under 2nd edition rules, Miko so loses that fight. V owns her.
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2005-11-30, 02:31 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Doug_Lampert
Also, some exceptionally well-coreographed martial arts movies lately have some good several-on-one fighting.
Originally Posted by Sylvius
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2005-11-30, 02:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Freeman333
In round 3 he is at - 5 and after round 7 Durkon casts 3 more spells before they go. That means that Belkar is at least at -12. Last time i checked that means you're dead.
As I have written in the "How did Miko do it" post, I hope Durkon is allowed to raise him before it's too late.
I would hate to see Belkar gone from the party and the strip (Although Belkar haunting the party from the dead does appeal to me right at this moment) as he is one of my favorite characters.English is not my native language so plz forgive any misspelling.
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2005-11-30, 02:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by KilkomirMan this thing was full of outdated stuff.
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2005-11-30, 02:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Omniplex
Alignment is absolutely objective. What's LG is LG everywhere. Killing someone for looking at her funny would take away Miko's paladin powers, no matter where she grew up.
It's clever how Miko is such a terrible person, and yet has managed to stay within her alignment this entire time.
BTW, Giant, I notice that in your battle description you have Belkar failing Will saves. Stunning Fist is a Fortitude save, which I think Belkar would have better odds on.
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2005-11-30, 03:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Marller
Does this mean that Evil gods can't have "paladins" for themselves? Does not a neutral god deserve a defender of ITS faith?
Doesn't make sense to me -- and I thought this was changed in 3rd Ed., much like the racial limitations were removed...
Ah well. If I ever pick up a new game, I'd like to see this as a house rule...T'is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open one's mouth, and remove all doubt. --Abraham Lincoln
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2005-11-30, 03:03 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Omellette
Man this thing was full of outdated stuff.
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2005-11-30, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Belkar's not dead; he doesn't have Xs over his eyes. :)
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2005-11-30, 03:11 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Omellette
The Blackguard is a prestige class for "evil paladins." But really, you could house rule in anything you want ( like purple, half-dwarf rangers ;))
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2005-11-30, 03:12 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by NEO|Phyte
For example, I picture Miko more as a fanatic of pure Law. Lawful Neutral, regardless of good or evil. The ONLY thing that's of any import is the following of the letter of the law.
Now, her Detect Evil/Smite Evil skills obviously mean that she's LG, not LN. But... Well, whatever -- the Giant's the man here, and he's got his reasons. I'm getting away from the comic now.
:-)T'is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open one's mouth, and remove all doubt. --Abraham Lincoln
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2005-11-30, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Ok, maybe he's not dead.
I'm just saying that there is no reference in Rich's explanation of the events that gives me a clue as to Belkar succeding in stabilizing himself or Miko or Durkon healing him a single hit point.
If I missed something plz show me where.
In this case I would be happy to be wrong.English is not my native language so plz forgive any misspelling.
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2005-11-30, 03:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Duraska
Hmmm, OK...
Would Lay on Hands or Detect/Smite Evil be some of those Paladin powers they'd receive? Assume NOT evil, since that would imply more a "Harm Touch" (to use the Everquest expreission) and Detect/Smite Good set of powers.T'is better to be silent and thought a fool, than to open one's mouth, and remove all doubt. --Abraham Lincoln
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2005-11-30, 03:47 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Kadi
EDIT: $@^&! typo.
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2005-11-30, 03:48 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Kilkomir
Durkon can't get to Belkar, so he casts Prayer for his team.
Might be your explanation, but you guys will have to fill me in on what that line means.
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2005-11-30, 03:51 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
I said this in the other thread (gawd, I hate it when people start new threads for OOTS discussions, these stupid splits happen).
Injuring and possibly killing criminals resisting arrest is not, necessarily, a not-Good act. It doesn't matter that the criminals don't think they fall under her jurisdiction. She had a mandate to bring back the Order. When they gave her the terms of their continued cooperation (being drug back in chains), she was compelled to meet those terms. Miko may have been willing to accept Roy's insults, but his decision to not continue with her back to face justice was what set her off.
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2005-11-30, 03:54 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Eriol
Prayer is a spell that boosts the cleric and his partymembers.
If the party members believe in the same god as the cleric they get a better boost then if they don't.
That is the spell in 3.0 if i remember correctly.(I haven't looked it up).English is not my native language so plz forgive any misspelling.
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2005-11-30, 03:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
:'( I weep for the OotS. :'(
At least this time the Giant refrained from showing us the sword sticking out of Elan's chest. Bard-killer. ;)
Durkon should be ostracized by the rest of the Order. If he didn't do anything to earn some bruises, a gag, and a chain around his neck, then he didn't do enough for the team. And following Thor's will is no excuse, unless he actually believes it's Thor's will that the OotS be presented to Lord Shojo in chains (but then that by itself would be a good reason to shop for a new party cleric). Miko could've still led them to her master... while she's tied up across the back of a hobbled Windstrider (assuming the horse hadn't already died from kidney loss).
Edited for clarity about who, exactly, is tied up atop Windstrider.
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2005-11-30, 04:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Wrecan
Previously, she considered flanking/backstabbing (sneak attacks) honorless. Take a moment to consider flanking, and another to consider sneak attacks. What would be considered honorless about them? Flanking means it is easier to hit, but so is using a magical weapon. Is using a magical weapon honorless? I doubt Miko thinks so; I believe that she herself uses magical weapons (although there is no conclusive evidence, she seems to hit very often). Sneak attacks deal additional damage, but so does using a bane weapon (for instance). I doubt she'd consider dealing additional damage if possible to be honorless, either. So what makes flanking/sneak attacks honorless?
It is my interpretation that Miko would consider flanking and sneak attacks honorless because they take advantage of the foe when s/he cannot defend properly. In other words, it's not the effect, it's the context of the action. (Makes sense to me.)
And that is exactly what Miko does when she attacks the OOTSers; she takes advantage of the fact that they can't defend properly in order to do some additional damage, and hit better. The context of the action is the same. Thus, it would be dishonorable, by her own standards.
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2005-11-30, 04:04 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by RawBearNYC
First of all i'm sorry for posting about this in two places but after I did the first post I thought it would be better to talk about it in the normal post about the comic.
Second of all I'm not talking about whether killing Belkar is an evil act or not. I understand Miko's reasons for doing what must be done so the "criminals" can be put to trial.
I'm just saying that if Belkar is dead I hope he doesn't stay that way for long as I would miss him too much in the rest of the OOTS strips.
Thirdly if I'm way off and you're not adressing me RawBearNYC then don't take notice of me and my ramblings.English is not my native language so plz forgive any misspelling.
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2005-11-30, 04:09 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Okay, what with the all the anti-Miko pro-Miko stuff going on here - and my own being bored - I thought I'd add my two cents in.
Generally, I agree with Roy's original understanding of Miko - I think this is her first time dealing with a situation that isn't black and white; her first time actually in an adventuring party (I'm guessing she was strickly a solo adventurer before this); her first time outside of a caste system. When a character - or a person, for that matter - is limited by her background and her range of experience, the true test of whether or not she's a good person is how she deals with new experiences that don't factor in to her usual way of thinking.
Admittedly, Miko hasn't done too good with that so far. I tend to think Roy was right to call her out; he makes a good argument in this strip. That having been said, I'm not going to count her out quite yet. It's going to be interesting - and entertaining - to see if she ever ends up soaking up any of Roy's argument.tinwatchman initiative tracker - free initiative tracker for the iPod and iPod Touch!
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2005-11-30, 04:20 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
I still don't think Miko could have beaten them if the DM hadn't fudged all her rolls. And this is the delusion I intend to stick to...
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2005-11-30, 04:43 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Simon
(And to ostracize or kick out Durkon after all that they've put up with from Belkar... ::)
Miko could've still led them to her master... while tied up across the back of a hobbled Windstrider (assuming the horse hadn't already died from kidney loss).
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2005-11-30, 04:46 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Marller
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2005-11-30, 04:52 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
I still don't think Miko could have beaten them if the DM hadn't fudged all her rolls. And this is the delusion I intend to stick to...
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2005-11-30, 04:53 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Gary_Schaper
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2005-11-30, 04:57 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Doug_Lampert
You are suggesting that in order for it to have been an honorable fight (by Miko's standards), each member of the OOTS would have needed to face her alone, one at a time. I don't think it would be honorable to demand that someone four levels than you must face you alone; in fact, I'd call that cowardice. It's not entirely unlike a teenager beating up a seven year old. While I'm not that familiar with Japanese feudal culture, I have a hard time picturing that they would have considered it honorable, either.
Additionally, if Miko would have considered it honorable, she would have attempted to face them one at a time, perhaps by attempting to seperate them from the rest of the party--why not, if doing so would have been honorable; it certainly would have improved her chances a lot? OR, she could even have started the first encounter by demanding that the OOTSers face her one at a time. But she didn't. No, instead the comment about the OOTSers using shameful tactics just happen to be said directly after Haley sneak attack her and Roy flanks her. I think you're reaching when you claim that it wasn't flanking/sneak attacking that she objected to.
In any case she did to them exactly what she did to the Ogres. If it is so horrible now why was it not dishonorable then?
Further: They KNEW that's how she fights, KNEW that they had just challenged her, and KNEW that she, with some justification, thought she could take them all.
She didn't attack in the middle of a conversation, reread the last few panels, she's not talking, they are ALL openly challenging her to combat except Durkon.
If attacking when an armed group challenges you is wrong just WHEN do you think an attack is allowed?
Does she need to hold their coats for them, or maybe she should give them time for a hot meal.
If they weren't ready that's because they're morons, not because she did anything dishonorable. They assumed that she wouldn't attack them all, even though they met her when she attacked them all, they assumed if she did attack she could not win, even though when they met her she won.
She's not required to be stupid, when the fight starts it starts, getting in the first shot when outnumbered 6:1 is just good sense.
Furthermore, it is quite clear that it was Miko who started the fight. Quite a violent nature, she has. Ever think maybe she could have considered other alternatives?
Just as gathering the Orges togather for area effect spells was just good sense.
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2005-11-30, 05:02 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by eof
I think she believes flanked attacks are dishonorable because you aren't facing your opponent. If you cannot look your opponent in the eye when killing him, you are a coward. You are literally a backstabber. At least, that's what I think the issue is. Miko always faces her opponent, even if the oppenent if flat-footed.
Originally Posted by eofHere is a numbering of all character appearances in OOTS
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2005-11-30, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
It's also interesting that Miko wasn't willing to hurt Durkon, even when that put her at a disadvantage. Each time he cast a spell within her range, she could have taken an attack of opportunity--if she has the Combat Reflexes feat (and she must have that or Deflect Arrows, as a second level monk), a completely free attack of opportunity, probably ruining his Heal and Cure Critical Wounds spells and thereby keeping the people she focused on putting down first from getting back up. So she did, in fact, put herself at a completely voluntary disadvantage in the battle to avoid hurting Durkon.
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2005-11-30, 05:06 PM (ISO 8601)DeathQuakerGuest in the Playground
Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Simon
Given from what the Giant described, the Order would have gone down faster and Miko might have even killed them, had Durkon not been supplying them with healing and buffs throughout the combat. And the fact that he did attempt diplomacy and did not act against Miko probably helped persuade Miko in the end to keep them alive.
He doesn't look happy at all about the situation. But he is probably singlehandedly responsible for the fact that the Order, while bruised, is not broken.