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  1. - Top - End - #601
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by eof
    It is my interpretation that Miko would consider flanking and sneak attacks honorless because they take advantage of the foe when s/he cannot defend properly.
    If that were true, she would never have learned Quick Draw and would never have attacked the ogres during a surprise round. Under your interpretation, it is always dishonorable to attack a foe who is flatfooted, but she does that all the time.

    I think she believes flanked attacks are dishonorable because you aren't facing your opponent. If you cannot look your opponent in the eye when killing him, you are a coward. You are literally a backstabber. At least, that's what I think the issue is. Miko always faces her opponent, even if the oppenent if flat-footed.

    Quote Originally Posted by eof
    In other words, it's not the effect, it's the context of the action. (Makes sense to me.)
    Agreed, but you've taken the wrong context. It cannot be a prohibition on attacking people flatfooted as she does that to the ogres.
    Here is a numbering of all character appearances in OOTS

  2. - Top - End - #602
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    oops... double post
    Here is a numbering of all character appearances in OOTS

  3. - Top - End - #603
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by manscatha
    I still don't think Miko could have beaten them if the DM hadn't fudged all her rolls. And this is the delusion I intend to stick to...
    Delusion? It's no delusion.

    1. Miko apparently has a feat that forces the target of her stunning attack to make Will saves instead of Fortitude saves. Kinda cool, actually; I might add it to my campaign setting. But definitely not in the SRD.

    2. Roy isn't allowed an AoO when Windstrider tries to sunder his club. Hrmph.

    3. V can successfully cast cone of cold defensively, but not disintegrate? Bah, I say. Bah! And shouldn't V be smart enough to cast invisibility? Or cast a buff on Roy or Haley? Or at least take a 5 foot step so he isn't flanked?

    4. V's ranged attack bonus is disparaged. His BAB is +6, even an average elf has a Dex bonus of +1, and Elan's bard song adds another +2. Even with the -4 penalty for firing into melee, he should have at least a +5, which I figure gives him about a 50/50 chance against a dextrous opponent, even if you throw in a ring of protection.

    5. Elan is nearly murdered for daring to (attempt to) heal his friend, but Durkon goes around healing willy-nilly and doesn't get so much as a nasty look.

    Foul play is afoot. >:(

    Free the OotS!

    P.S. This is all based on the description of the battle that the Giant posted earlier.

    P.P.S. I still love the comic, and greatly respect the Giant's work. The heroes of every great story have their moments of hopelessness. Congrats to Giant for making me care so much about a half-dozen stick figures!
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  4. - Top - End - #604
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Marller

    In Strip 215 it is clearly shown that Miko is not stupid. Giving them a advance warning to something they already know (she told them at their first meeting: trial or death) and while severly outnumbered would be really lawful stupid. The Order stated their opinion and after Roy ended it was nothing left but her response (note that Durkon who was against the break up has not a single scratch).
    All the roughness towards the two/one unwilling/evil members of the order to follow can easily interpreted as a warning, follow or die. She wasn't too far away while they argued. Why bother learning someone's name and getting attached if you have to kill them sooner or later?
    Normally samurais have to kill themselves to retain their honor after failure or become honorless and outcasts. I don't think Miko is willing to do that for people who don't give a whit about her. And it wouldn't serve the greater good, their innocence wasn't proven, that's the task the trial has. It's not her's to decide that.
    Almost everything of consequence to the OOTS has been "do as I say or die." As you say yourself, "Why bother learning someone's name and getting attached if you have to kill them sooner or later?" I dunno, maybe, just maybe, there are alternatives that could be considered. IOW, it is not about failing in her duties or not that I object to, but rather the path she takes to succeed. Miko is rather tyrannical, leading by terror rather than example, as you'd normally expect a paladin to do. (Not that the OOTS has been intimidated.) If you consider this to be a valid point of view for anyone supposed to be a poster child for LG (or generally G), I disagree, and we don't have to discuss that anymore.

    Truly she has no more social awareness than the order. It is merely attuned to her society and Roy already stated antipathy as a woman and the other would leave anyway if not for Roy and Durkon. She has no reason to believe the decision is coming out of a heated discussion.
    Other than, I don't know, they were having one right then? BUT, I do grant you that you might be right: Miko might be used to everyone always completely meaning everything they say, all the time, every detail, even when angry. I will say this, however: even in the short time she has spent with the OOTSers she should recognize that their social interactions don't follow the same rules and patterns as her own, unless she is socially inept, as Roy says.

    I admit i can't be sure if she would really kill em once they are down.
    I don't trust Roy's sense motive to be infallible. She might as well spare them for Durkons sake and Miko didn't hinder Durkon from healing the others.
    Roy might not be certain of what Miko will and will not do at the moment, but merely that he considers it a possibility is telling. And regardless of why Miko allowed Durkon to heal them, I don't think compassion is at the top of the list.

    Self control is something different than psychotic.
    When losing self control leads to you attacking and trying to kill people, even if they were convicted criminals (which the OOTSers aren't), I'd be hard pressed to find excuses for you. Seems pretty psychotic to me.

    A small story out of the book (bear with me, i don't remember the details):
    In one chapter the master of the house (an English man) put an trout up on a hook and told the servants not to touch it because he wanted to eat it later (i don't remember what he wanted to do with that bird exactly). And he left the house for a few days for some reason. While he was away the neighbors complained about the awful stench that emitted from the house and finally the janitor of the house took the bird off and buried it.
    The master returned and found the bird gone, he asked who took it off. The servants said it was the janitor. He asked why the janitor did that and they said because the neighbors complained about the stench. He ordered the janitor to him and the servants told him he can't come he is dead. Shocked he asked why. They told him, that he committed seppuku because he disobeyed his master. Shaken he says, that that was unecessary it was just a bird. They tell him that he did it freely and it was necessary and that he did it for his family and his (the janitors) honor.

    I'm pretty sure most Westerners can't understand such a behaviour (or life by such a codex).
    Nice story. I can understand it, although I might not agree with it. This is relevant to Miko always taking the "easy way" of beating the OOTSers into submission rather than considering any other option in what way, exactly?

  5. - Top - End - #605
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by e
    I'm going to go against the flow here and say I find Miko to be very well played.
    I'm not saying she is not well played. She's excellently played, in fact, since she provokes such varied reactions.

    I also find it interesting that no matter what she does people are going to hate her... She gets criticized for being 'lawful stupid' because she has honor and a code that limits her actions. Yet when she is played smart she is accused of being dishonorable and should be stripped of her power (Like when she gets the upper hand in combat)

    I find her actions to be completely within the bounds of lawful good and wouldn't be surprise if she is well within the bounds of whatever her paladin code is. (It hasn't been explicitly revealed but I am assuming it is something Samurai-ish)
    You'll see that there are different people having different objections to her. Yet another reason she should be considered well played. I have merely stated that I think she seems psychotic by virtue of solving everything by the sword and not considering any other options. It is similarly clear that her actions are within the bounds of her paladin code, or she would no longer be a paladin. Thus a paladin that resolves most issues by violence and (as Roy said) doesn't really treat human beings with any dignity is a valid type of paladin. I, personally, find that kind of paladin repulsive, enough to put me in the anti-Miko camp--I like to think of paladins as fair leaders who lead by example, not by intimidation. But my personal view doesn't negate the validity of Miko as a paladin.

    This is why I think this way. The Order of the Stick are adventures, this means they are trained and willing to use tools of lethal force. In our world law enforcement would call that 'Armed and Dangerous.' Notice didn't say criminal yet.

    ...

    It is only after Roy makes it clear that he is changed he mind about following her does she return to violence. Given the clear hostility of the rest of the party, their 'Armed and Dangerous' status, and the new resolve of Roy, attempting to talk them back into following her is clearly unlikely.
    There are highly intelligent characters among the OOTSers. Surely even Miko realizes this. If her Lord is set upon seeing the OOTSers brought to answer for their "crimes," surely he'd also be ready to invest additional resources in doing so. A high-level wizard (or several) who can teleport in, subdue the OOTSers and teleport them back seems like a valid choice. If Miko told the OOTSers this, it is my bet that they'd see the futility in resisting. (And even if it wasn't the case, maybe Miko is the best the Lord has, she could bluff (while strictly not lying) the OOTSers into believing something similar--she is supposed to have a decent CHA score, after all.)

    But subduing them and possibly killing them in the process is also a viable option, of course. Why do something else when you can just beat them up and take them by force? Indeed, why even try? :-/

    Please remember that Miko is the 'Arresting Officer.' She isn't a judge, lawyer, jury, or executioner. When she killed the bandit leaders it was self defense. Killing the Orge's were defending the innocent dirt farmers. Every time she attacked the Order it was the only option she could see to fulfill her orders to bring in 'Armed and Dangerous' people in to answer for what they have done. Of course there is a risk of killing the people she is try to bring in, but given the great nature of the charge against them it would be a tragic but acceptable possibility. Just like it is in the real world when the police try to bring violent criminals.
    I think you are quite right there: "it was the only option she could see." Which pretty much is my point. No need to try to argue or convince, just slice them up a little and maybe they'll come around to your point of view.

    And in all fairness, you can hardly argue that even during the short stay Miko has been with the OOTSers, they have shown traits that should count in their favor--saving the dirt farmer, stopping the assassins. It should be evident to Miko that their problem might be with her and her alone, not with them being complete bastards.

    I would also like to point out that in The Giant's post about how it might have happened, it's Roy's and Durkon's thoughts and feeling that she might kill a disable opponent. At no point have we see her do this. Attacking by surprise and killing someone that is already down are two wildly different things.
    It's true that we don't have her POV on this, but that Roy and Durkon consider it a possibility is already telling.

  6. - Top - End - #606
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish
    It's also interesting that Miko wasn't willing to hurt Durkon, even when that put her at a disadvantage. *Each time he cast a spell within her range, she could have taken an attack of opportunity--if she has the Combat Reflexes feat (and she must have that or Deflect Arrows, as a second level monk), a completely free attack of opportunity, probably ruining his Heal and Cure Critical Wounds spells and thereby keeping the people she focused on putting down first from getting back up. *So she did, in fact, put herself at a completely voluntary disadvantage in the battle to avoid hurting Durkon.
    Unless Durkon took Combat Casting (is it available to clerics, I would think it was) and made his concentration checks. I played a sorcerer once that rarely missed his concentration checks.

  7. - Top - End - #607
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by RawBearNYC
    Injuring and possibly killing criminals resisting arrest is not, necessarily, a not-Good act. It doesn't matter that the criminals don't think they fall under her jurisdiction. She had a mandate to bring back the Order. When they gave her the terms of their continued cooperation (being drug back in chains), she was compelled to meet those terms. Miko may have been willing to accept Roy's insults, but his decision to not continue with her back to face justice was what set her off.
    True that. However, the issue of the OOTSers' guilt is still somewhat debatable. Additionally, I still maintain that it would be a point in Miko's favor (at least in my eyes) if she didn't resolve all significant issues by turning to violence as a first option all the time.

    Keep in mind that this is just me and my opinion. I started this argument by saying that the latest comic firmly put me in the anti-Miko camp. I haven't said that she has done anything that would disqualify her as a paladin. I have also said that she clashes with the picture I have of paladins, but obviously there are different kinds of paladins, living by somewhat different codes. I have no problem with that. I just don't like her. ;)

  8. - Top - End - #608
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Wrecan
    (I said: ) It is my interpretation that Miko would consider flanking and sneak attacks honorless because they take advantage of the foe when s/he cannot defend properly.

    If that were true, she would never have learned Quick Draw and would never have attacked the ogres during a surprise round. Under your interpretation, it is always dishonorable to attack a foe who is flatfooted, but she does that all the time.
    There are other uses to Quick Draw other than getting a surprise-surprise attack. Furthermore, she didn't attack the ogres during the surprise round--she made a full attack, which she couldn't have if it would have been the surprise round. Additionally, it would be quite a stretch of imagination to say that the ogres were unaware of a hostile character in their midst. (And I'd argue, that is unlike the situation with the OOTSers.) They simply used up their action to wait for her (or delayed, if you prefer). Finally, the ogres clearly proclaimed that they were ready to fight. (You can argue that the OOTSers did the same, at least in spirit, but I'd disagree. No need to discuss that further.)

    I think she believes flanked attacks are dishonorable because you aren't facing your opponent. If you cannot look your opponent in the eye when killing him, you are a coward. You are literally a backstabber. At least, that's what I think the issue is. Miko always faces her opponent, even if the oppenent if flat-footed.
    This is debatable. Flanking does not mean that you're attacking them in the back. In fact, the rules specify that characters have no special facing, and rather move and twist around in place when fightning. I also have a strong hunch that if Haley would sneak attack Miko from the front when Miko is flat footed, she'd consider that honorless as well.

    (I said: ) In other words, it's not the effect, it's the context of the action. (Makes sense to me.)

    Agreed, but you've taken the wrong context. It cannot be a prohibition on attacking people flatfooted as she does that to the ogres.
    No she doesn't. :)

  9. - Top - End - #609
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    3. V can successfully cast cone of cold defensively, but not disintegrate? Bah, I say. Bah! And shouldn't V be smart enough to cast invisibility? Or cast a buff on Roy or Haley? Or at least take a 5 foot step so he isn't flanked?

    4. V's ranged attack bonus is disparaged. His BAB is +6, even an average elf has a Dex bonus of +1, and Elan's bard song adds another +2. Even with the -4 penalty for firing into melee, he should have at least a +5, which I figure gives him about a 50/50 chance against a dextrous opponent, even if you throw in a ring of protection.
    If the OOTSers had "tailored" their attacks against Miko, I think V would have:

    - Cast Fly immediately after being healed, then taken to the air (30' up), immediately putting him/her beyond any attack Miko normally can muster (melee only).

    - Cast Greater Invisibility, getting a +2 attack bonus to his/her ranged attack rolls and denying Miko any DEX bonus to her AC (which should be SIGNIFICANT), assuming of course Miko doesn't have the Blind-Fight feat.

    - Cast any ranged touch spell, like Disintegrate which already was mentioned by the Giant. Repeat until desired result is accomplished. If still going by the time Greater Invisibility ends (unlikely), swap for other spells that don't require hit rolls.

    But V didn't. So IMO, they didn't expect Miko to attack, and thus what they said wasn't meant as a challenge.

  10. - Top - End - #610
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    On the issue of Miko using flank and surprise attacks; Yes, with the ogres she let them gather and prepare first. She had a purpose for this in getting them ready for an area effect spell. She then caught the leader flat footed with a surprise attack. She has no compunctions whatsoever in using these advantages.
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kilkomir
    ... I'm just saying that if Belkar is dead I hope he doesn't stay that way for long as I would miss him too much in the rest of the OOTS strips. ...
    Why do you think he is dead?
    Let not your heart be troubled, Belkar is knocked out. (my bet is the horse did it) and he shall awaken when Rich needs him once again.
    I can say this savely because there aren't any + or x where his eyes should be, The Rules of Cartoons state, if a character is dead you x or + there eyes.

    Rich does love to follow Cartoon Law. ;D
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  12. - Top - End - #612
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Suppose Roy had succeeded on his last attack? Then what wouldve happened? Belkar kills the horse?

    I dont think Miko is particularily nice, but there are people who are "good" but not nice... um... that makes less and less sense every time I look at it, but I stand by my statement. She is following orders so judgment is sorta out of her hands anyway. Kill the order? Bring the order back alive? Its the same to her.

    But still, great hopes for Miko in the future...

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by RawBearNYC
    Unless Durkon took Combat Casting (is it available to clerics, I would think it was) and made his concentration checks. I played a sorcerer once that rarely missed his concentration checks.
    But, we've (the Giant has) already established that Vaarsuvius would probably have failed a Concentration check to cast Disintegrate defensively. Disintegrate and Heal are the same level. So unless Durkon has a much higher Concentrate bonus than Vaarsuvius does, fizzling Heal and Cure Critical Wounds would have been a serious possibility. I'm inclined to take the Giant's not saying that Durkon either fizzled any spells or successfully cast defensively as meaning that both Durkon and Miko knew Miko wasn't going to take AoOs against Durkon.

    Quote Originally Posted by eof
    - Cast Fly
    Vaarsuvius doesn't have Fly, remember? It was a big point that Zz'dtri wouldn't trade it.
    - Cast Greater Invisibility, getting a +2 attack bonus to his/her ranged attack rolls and denying Miko any DEX bonus to her AC (which should be SIGNIFICANT), assuming of course Miko doesn't have the Blind-Fight feat.
    And assuming that Vaarsuvius has Greater Invisibility--and has any form of Invisibility prepared.
    Quote Originally Posted by Krytha
    I dont think Miko is particularily nice,
    Um...

    Do you think most of the Order is particularly nice? Haley is a thief (and I don't mean the 2ed class name). Roy is generally snide to everyone. Vaarsuvius is a conceited snob who treats almost everyone disdainfully and howls when not treated with respect. Elan and Durkon are nice; that doesn't change the fact that Elan is probably more dangerous to be around than Belkar.
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    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Elethiomel
    No, they didn't "nerf" wizards. Ranged touch attacks are much easier to hit with than normal touch attacks. And, many spells do not require ranged touch attacks. Disintegrate is a 6th level save-or-die spell. Save or die. It has the additional drawback of destroying loot. "Finger of death", which is a 7th level spell, does not require a ranged touch attack, and does not destroy loot. This gives magic users in 3E and higher more options, it does not make them less powerful.
    What extra options? Finger of Death was always like that. In fact, that was even more novel back when gear always had to make a save against AoE spells (a wooden staff didn't have much chance against magical fire, as I recall). That Disintegrate was guaranteed to destroy loot (if the save was failed) was a pretty steep drawback.

    And now it's the same spell it always was, but now it can miss. How is that not a nerf? It's a level 6 spell. At level 7 you start seeing the no-save "Power Word" spells.

    And don't Clerics still have a save-or-die spell (Slay Living) at level 5? And Harm at level 4 (or did it get nerfed, too?)? Disintegrate's actually a bit more powerful than that because it requires Resurrection to undo it. The scale seemed pretty gradual.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Harm is level 6, not 4.
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Good stuff

    An old DM of my friend created an Amulet of Railroading. +10 to everything. His words:

    "It just appears on the ground 3 rounds into a battle. I hate the thing."
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Oops.

    It's been 6 years since 2nd edition. My memory's getting a bit fuzzy.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish
    Do you think most of the Order is particularly nice? Haley is a thief (and I don't mean the 2ed class name). Roy is generally snide to everyone. Vaarsuvius is a conceited snob who treats almost everyone disdainfully and howls when not treated with respect. Elan and Durkon are nice; that doesn't change the fact that Elan is probably more dangerous to be around than Belkar.
    Way to expertly change the conversation. Anyway, as far as we know, the last remotely bad thing Haley has done was when she tricked the other players into giving her an extra share for worthless rocks. She's treated basically everyone except Miko with respect since then. The only people Roy is ever really mean towards are Belkar and Elan, because they cause the most problems for the party. V only treats people disdainfully if they first act disrespectfully towards him. As much as you may like to revise it otherwise, the OoTS are decent and good people. Miko on the other hand... well, I think eof has made the case pretty clearly for me.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    My favorite part is that Roy can understand Haley, but no one else can! Even after casting the language spell earlier Durkon couldn't understand! Maybe it's because Roy was a woman so now he can follow? This would be great evidence of V. being a man as s/he couldn't understand Haley either, though personally i think "it's" a girl....
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish
    Vaarsuvius doesn't have Fly, remember? *It was a big point that Zz'dtri wouldn't trade it.
    V most probably DOES have Fly, but was after a longer-duration previous-edition version that was house-ruled in
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Kish
    *laughs*

    See, that's the beauty of it. *The people who laughed at the end of #250 wince at the end of #251, and the people who winced at the end of #250 laugh at the end of #251.
    Not true. I laughed at the end of both quite a bit. I think Miko deserved the tongue lashing, and the OOTS deserved to get the smack down. And it was all hilarious.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by flippedwm689
    My favorite part is that Roy can understand Haley, but no one else can! Even after casting the language spell earlier Durkon couldn't understand! Maybe it's because Roy was a woman so now he can follow?
    I suspect it's more that Haley said exactly what Elan said earlier when Roy mentioned his Trouser Titan, and Roy could follow the tone of voice.
    Quote Originally Posted by Deleran
    Way to expertly change the conversation. Anyway, as far as we know, the last remotely bad thing Haley has done was when she tricked the other players into giving her an extra share for worthless rocks. She's treated basically everyone except Miko with respect since then.
    And, of course, the fact that she talks about the entire party's dragon treasure as "my loot" indicates that she feels sincere remorse for this, such that it's not relevant to who she is now. And there's nothing wrong with not treating Miko with respect, although it's wrong for Miko not to treat her with respect.

    Oh, btw, I don't think Roy felt very respected when Haley was tauntung him about being female.
    V only treats people disdainfully if they first act disrespectfully towards him.
    You mean, like the dirt farmers? Or like Roy (On the Origin of PCs, although telling Roy that the least understanding of what Vaarsuvius deals with on a daily basis in Dungeon Crawling Fools would drive Roy mad is pretty pompous too)? Or like Miko*?
    As much as you may like to revise it otherwise,
    I'm not by any stretch a mod, but I still think you can make your case for anything worth making a case for without sideways accusations of intellectual dishonesty. Just a thought.

    *No, Miko did not act disrespectfully toward Vaarsuvius before s/he first called her "this foul shrew." Therefore Vaarsuvius was immediately contemptuous of Miko--whether Miko was aware of this or not being both unprovable and, as Roy would say, "not the point."
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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

  23. - Top - End - #623
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by NEO|Phyte
    V most probably DOES have Fly, but was after a longer-duration previous-edition version that was house-ruled in
    http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gian...otscript?SK=49
    Ehem...uh...If you actually read the rest of that comic, V dosent have fly. He tried to buy it but was thwarted by those darn booster packs.
    Aldas


    Great occasions do not make heroes or cowards; they simply unveil them to the eyes of men. Silently and imperceptibly, as we wake or sleep, we grow strong or weak; and at last some crisis shows what we have become. -Brooke Foss Westcott


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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Well, I assume being on the receiving end of shoot first and ask questions later might qualify as being disrespected. And V didn't disrespect the dirt farmers. He simply pointed out that the Order had more important things to attend to ("I am not intending to be completely without passion for their plight"). The way Haley was treating Roy when he was a female would be better be classified as good natured ribbing than disrespect. And yes, not treating Miko with respect is okay, because Miko doesn't treat them with respect (and began the cycle of disrespect).

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Draedan
    Ehem...uh...If you actually read the rest of that comic, V dosent have fly. He tried to buy it but was thwarted by those darn booster packs.
    Yes while in the dungeon of Dorukan, V did not have any form of Fly.

    But they've been to town since then, and while the only place we SAW V in was the potion shop (where V got some good deals on potions), it is completely possible that there was also a shop that sold spells, and thus V could have ANYTHING that the Giant decides to give. Just because there was never a comic about it doesn't mean it couldn't have happened. V's choices of spells is literally "whatever works for the plot", and conversely, DOESN'T have anything that does NOT work for the plot.

    The town visit blows the possibilities wide open.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by eof
    I still have every intention to consider Miko borderline psychotic, as the definition seems to fit her well. If you want to argue that she can't be expected to be any other way and/or there is cultural bias involved (I haven't read the book you mention), that is a different argument, and it makes her no less psychotic in my eyes.
    First of all, "psychotic" is a completely different thing from "psychopathy."

    from Wiki:
    Psychosis: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychotic-
    a generic psychiatric term for mental states in which the components of rational thought and perception are severely impaired. Persons experiencing a psychosis may experience hallucinations, hold delusional beliefs (e.g.paranoid delusions), demonstrate personality changes and exhibit disorganized thinking.
    Antisocial Personality Disorder:
    http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Psychopath
    Antisocial personality disorder (APD), or dissocial personality disorder, is a psychiatric diagnosis that interprets antisocial and impulsive behaviours as symptoms of a personality disorder.

    Professional psychiatry generally compares APD to sociopathic disorders and psychopathic disorders (not to be confused with psychosis).
    I apologize for arguing semantics, but I have in the past suffered from psychosis, so it is a bit of a sticking point with me.

    Secondly, Miko does not display symptoms of psychopathy (also known as sociopathy, and more properly known as Antisocial Personality Disorder.) People with this disorder display a lack of empathy (which she does) and a complete disreguard for the well being of others, rules, the law and authority (which she does not.)

    She did not use lethal force when she attacked the OoTS for the second time. Otherwise, they would be dead.

    The only thing she really seems guilty of is taking people at their word. Roy and the others directly challenged Miko to a fight. ("You're going to have to drag us there in chains.") Miko accepted the challenge, as she would be expected to in accordance with both the laws in her society and her duty as an arresting officer.

    The OoTS wasn't expecting her to take up the challenge, perhaps meaning their statements as sarcastic or rhetorical, or thinking Miko wouldn't risk her life by attacking all of them. They were mistaken. A bushi is expected to willingly sacrifice his or her life in order to fulfill her duty. This is quite the opposite of sociopathic behavior, which would tend to be extremely self-serving.

    Killing them all on the spot also would have been perfectly acceptable according to her (admittedly sociopathic) societal laws. However, she did not in fact kill any of them.

    If we're going to be diagnostic about things, I'd say Miko is far more likely to suffer from Ausperger's syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausperger%27s_syndrome than antisocial personality disorder. Ausperger's syndrome is a form of high-functioning autisim characterized by stunted or disordered social development paired with above average intelligence; intense, narrow focus on a subject of study; and, among some, a tendency to take everything literally, being unable to recognize sarcasm, hyperbole or rhetorical questions.

    edit: oh, also:
    People with Asperger syndrome often are noted for having a highly pedantic way of speaking, using language far more formal and structured than the situation normally would be thought to call for.
    sound familliar?

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Thank you for the breakdown of the fight, Right. It was fun to read (as was the comic).

    It seems that the dice were with Miko, but that doesn't equate to dm fudging.

    It was very close at any rate: if Durkan had fought, the Order would have won. I wonder if that fact will come up later?



    I would also like to note that Durkan still has full hit points and most of his spells, and that Miko is in very bad shape after that fight... ;)

    Sure, he won't do anything, but it's fun to think about.
    Ia! Ia! Banjulhu FHTAGN!!

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Deleran

    This story is bogus. Ritual suicide was a rite that could only be carried out by a samurai (amongst other reasons).
    No, no. It's just that since peasents are considered dirt, the death of a peasent is not such a big deal. A knowingly disobedient servent would expect to die anyway, and be happy about it. It just wouldn't be called seppuku.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    For Kish : Of course the OotS arent PERFECT people, they all have their quirks and sometimes don't have impeccable manners when dealing with each other, but they have been together for so long that they have adjusted for this. But overall, yes, they are nice people. Roy only says things to Elan that reek of sarcasm because Elan is kinda dumb sometimes and Roy is actually quite clever and rues have Elan in the party when things go sour.

    But that doesnt mean that Roy is a mean person. He went back for Elan at the bandit camp (and good thing too...) So unless someone really tests Roy, he's a decent guy. My point is, outside of the order of the stick is where they treat most others with a little more respect (because theyre used to each other within the party and its rather informal). So we SEE them be jerks to each other lots of the time, but when theyre with people they dont know, they act accordingly in most cases.

    Also, I get the impression that people think that there are people PLAYING these characters and that there is a DM. I just thought that the characters were themselves within a DnD universe and expecting things to happen and understanding that they have 1d10 hit die is just part of the satire. Sure Rich is the "DM" because he writes the comic, but its not like he's is at the table talking to other players who are playing Roy and Haley.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvius
    Man they nerfed wizards in 3E. I haven't really played since 3E was released, but requiring a ranged touch attack is just absurd. Wizards can't hit anything - they never could. Making that a fundamental part of offensive casting is just idiotic.

    Under 2nd edition rules, Miko so loses that fight. V owns her.
    Others have mentioned this point, but I don't think so much it is that 3E wizards are nerfed... it is that V is a nerfed wizard.

    Normal wizards don't have to buy spells from "booster packs," and an adventuring wizard of 12th level really should have 15 ranks in Concentration. (It's not like a wizard is lacking in skill points, with all that Int.) Virtually any PC wizard of 12th level would have teleport, fly, and invisibility/improved invisibility and use them liberally. (Many wizard PCs, even elves, would still have a Con of least 14 with magical gear, by 12th level, assuming even fair starting stats.)

    The point is, V (and the other OotS'ers) are nerfed for plot reasons -- I seem to remember that the Giant has specified that they are just as powerful as he needs them to be for the given story.

    In this case, it means high enough level to throw around powerful effects when the Giant wants a OotS'er to kick some behind, but unoptimized enough that it doesn't take an Invincible War Machine to defeat the party.

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