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  1. - Top - End - #631
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    And as far as fudging the dice goes....as a player I have on a couple of occasions rolled less than 5 on my attack for 4 or five straight rounds...including a couple of natural ones. So I could easily see Roy and company having incredibly crappy dice luck and losing the fight.
    Why is abbreviation such a long word?

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Deleran
    Well, I assume being on the receiving end of shoot first and ask questions later might qualify as being disrespected. And V didn't disrespect the dirt farmers.
    S/he called their farm an "insignificant mudhole," and helping them a "waste of time."
    He simply pointed out that the Order had more important things to attend to ("I am not intending to be completely without passion for their plight").
    S/he "pointed out" that increasing his/her store of magical knowledge was supposedly more important than whether the woman's husband got eaten by ogres or not. Snobbery, and incredible, incredible selfishness. (Actually, writing this has made me realize just how badly Vaarsuvius behaved there, thereby causing me to become more sympathetic to Miko's attitude toward him/her. :P)
    The way Haley was treating Roy when he was a female would be better be classified as good natured ribbing than disrespect.
    Maybe I'm just stiff, but I think when someone is obviously not amused by one's comments (and "slut" crosses way over the boundary of a word that I'd consider acceptable in good-natured ribbing anyway--I very much doubt the board's filter will leave it alone, so you may have to quote my post if you want to see what I wrote), and one steps them up in response to that person's obvious discomfort instead of halting them, you've left "good-natured ribbing" light-years behind.

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    "You are what you do. Choose again, and change." --Miles Vorkosigan

    "The really unforgivable acts are committed by calm men in beautiful green silk rooms, who deal death wholesale, by the shipload, without lust, or anger, or desire, or any redeeming emotion to excuse them but cold fear of some pretended future. But the crimes they hope to prevent in the future are imaginary. The ones they commit in the present--they are real." --Aral Vorkosigan

    Quote Originally Posted by The Giant View Post
    This, in a nutshell.
    Yes, exactly.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Holy sock, 10+ pages in one day!

    I think for the first time, I'm not going to read all of the recent replies.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by SpaceCoyoteVega
    The only thing she really seems guilty of is taking people at their word. Roy and the others directly challenged Miko to a fight. ("You're going to have to drag us there in chains.") Miko accepted the challenge, as she would be expected to in accordance with both the laws in her society and her duty as an arresting officer.
    I know its kind of silly to be arguing over a small phrase but…if there is one thing that Miko ISNT it is an arresting officer. *She is way out of her jurisdiction, failure to identify herself as an officer, illegal search and unlawful imprisonment (I have yet to see a warrant), reckless endangerment, cruel and unusual punishment (dragging them along in chains behind her horse), murder (she admits to killing beings simply because her detect alignment spell said they were evil), and assault with a deadly weapon.

    At best you could call her is a bounty hunter, even though the ability to violate someone’s rights really only extends over bail jumpers…

    And before someone even mentions it, I don’t care if those laws don’t exist/carry the same weight in this world. *If copyright infringement, restraining orders, and class action lawsuits exist then the other stuff exists. So :P

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  5. - Top - End - #635
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Personally, my respect for Miko went down a few pegs. I've felt a moderate amount of sympathy for Miko, for various reasons, but I felt her reaction was out of proportion. Admittedly, I was one of the people who predicted she'd cry, but I really didn't expect her to fly off th handle this way (By the way, I'm NOT talking about the violence, since it's pretty clear that happened because Roy and Co. refused to continue the journey.) I would've sooner expected Miko's response to Roy's comments to be something along the lines of "Very well. I do not require your approval, only your cooperation." I suppose the vehemence of her reaction only proves that Roy's comments got under her skin, especially the part about how she's only Good on a technicality.
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  6. - Top - End - #636
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by SpaceCoyoteVega
    First of all, "psychotic" is a completely different thing from "psychopathy."

    I apologize for arguing semantics, but I have in the past suffered from psychosis, so it is a bit of a sticking point with me.
    You are quite right of course, psychotic and psychopathic are different things. My apologies to you.

    Secondly, Miko does not display symptoms of psychopathy (also known as sociopathy, and more properly known as Antisocial Personality Disorder.) People with this disorder display a lack of empathy (which she does) and a complete disreguard for the well being of others, rules, the law and authority (which she does not.)
    I suppose that depends on where you look it up. If you google for it and pick the definition link, you are redirected to answers.com: "Psychopath: A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse." I think Miko qualifies for the "manifested in aggressive behavior without empathy" part. (And that's not only when dealing with the OOTSers--consider the missing tag from the mattress.)

    She did not use lethal force when she attacked the OoTS for the second time. Otherwise, they would be dead.
    Using lethal force does not require your targets to be killed. Any attack that potentially (and especially if typically used for that purpose) can kill someone is lethal force. Miko brought several (most) of the OOTSers down into negative hit points, some she very nearly killed in the process. Had not Durkon been there to heal them, it is very likely that at least one OOTSer would have failed to stabilize on their own and died. That seems pretty lethal to me.

    In the game (not that this comment about lethal force is restricted to the game) it's said outright that "non-lethal damage is subdual damage." Miko had every chance of dealing subdual damage (even with her weapons, under the rules, although not as efficiently as lethal damage), but didn't (in the scenario the Giant presented).

    The only thing she really seems guilty of is taking people at their word. Roy and the others directly challenged Miko to a fight. ("You're going to have to drag us there in chains.") Miko accepted the challenge, as she would be expected to in accordance with both the laws in her society and her duty as an arresting officer.

    The OoTS wasn't expecting her to take up the challenge, perhaps meaning their statements as sarcastic or rhetorical, or thinking Miko wouldn't risk her life by attacking all of them. They were mistaken. A bushi is expected to willingly sacrifice his or her life in order to fulfill her duty. This is quite the opposite of sociopathic behavior, which would tend to be extremely self-serving.

    Killing them all on the spot also would have been perfectly acceptable according to her (admittedly sociopathic) societal laws. However, she did not in fact kill any of them.
    Excellent. We at least agree that such actions would still be considered sociopathic, regardless of her cultural background.

    As for the fact that she didn't kill any of them, that is mostly due to a combination of luck (that none of her attacks happened to bring anyone down to -10 or below--unless you want to argue that she knew exactly how much damage to deal in order to just bring them to dying, rather than outright killing them, which I find doubtful) and that Durkon was around to heal the OOTSers (which she shouldn't have been able to count upon). AND, of course, she didn't kill them after they were defeated/had surrendered, which should come as no surprise--her goal was not, after all, to kill them. This does not change the fact that she used lethal force and that there was a fair chance of her killing at least one of them, and that she still had other options open to her, had she chosen to consider them.

    If we're going to be diagnostic about things, I'd say Miko is far more likely to suffer from Ausperger's syndrome http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ausperger%27s_syndrome than antisocial personality disorder. Ausperger's syndrome is a form of high-functioning autisim characterized by stunted or disordered social development paired with above average intelligence; intense, narrow focus on a subject of study; and, among some, a tendency to take everything literally, being unable to recognize sarcasm, hyperbole or rhetorical questions.
    She can be both. I think this latter is more a question about cultural misunderstandings, as others have suggested. We will find out once they reach her Lord's lands.

    edit: oh, also: (You quoted: ) People with Asperger syndrome often are noted for having a highly pedantic way of speaking, using language far more formal and structured than the situation normally would be thought to call for.

    sound familliar?
    Ok, I guess I'll bite: What is it that I should find familiar about it?

    Edit: Fixed some stuff that I definately misphrased.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    I know its kind of silly to be arguing over a small phrase but…if there is one thing that Miko ISNT it is an arresting officer. She is way out of her jurisdiction, failure to identify herself as an officer, illegal search and unlawful imprisonment (I have yet to see a warrant), reckless endangerment, cruel and unusual punishment (dragging them along in chains behind her horse), murder (she admits to killing beings simply because her detect alignment spell said they were evil), and assault with a deadly weapon.

    At best you could call her is a bounty hunter, even though the ability to violate someone’s rights really only extends over bail jumpers…

    And before someone even mentions it, I don’t care if those laws don’t exist/carry the same weight in this world. If copyright infringement, restraining orders, and class action lawsuits exist then the other stuff exists.
    Thank you for also saying this.

    This is what really gets me, Miko is a criminal herself. She ignores the laws of the nation she is in to impose her own laws on people outside her own land. The OotS was not in Lord Shojo's lands when they destroyed the gate, so Shojo has no right to send his bounty hunter after them.

    How would Miko act if the King of Nowhere sent a Knight to arrest her for something she did on Lord Shojo's lands that the King of Nowhere considered a crime? Would she obediently leave her homeland and go with a foriegn official to a distant land to answer for a capitol crime that was not against the law where you did it? No, because Miko is a hypocrite and frankly, an example of the very worst aspects of Paladins, and the reason a lot of DM's and players shudder at having Paladins in a campaign (not to mention Samurai in a non-asian-themed game).

    Not to mention that a foriegn noble taking a group in chains along a main road would probably get a lot of attention, and get Knights of the local kingdom looking into this foriegn slaver. But this is a satire of the very worst of DM behavior: blatant cheating and railroading, so nothing like that is likely.

    If I was the DM here, Miko would be on the borderline of losing her Paladinhood, if not having just lost it from that attack being the last straw. Not from any single action, but from a long pattern of behavior that is putting her entire alignment in jeopardy, she's Lawful Neutral who thinks she's Lawful Good because in her eyes Good = Lord Shojo's Laws, and she's got a serious confusion of the difference between Law and Good.

    I was so hoping the OotS would have just killed her on the spot, and Belkar could have put her head on a pike and they could have walked on. The strip has been a lot less entertaining since gotten away from dungeon crawls and fighting Xylon to being Miko's (now literal) slaves.

    Personally, I'm just waiting for the Miko Railroad to end so the OotS can get back on to what it's good at, and looking forward to the strip where she dies.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirin
    If I was the DM here, Miko would be on the borderline of losing her Paladinhood, if not having just lost it from that attack being the last straw. Not from any single action, but from a long pattern of behavior that is putting her entire alignment in jeopardy, she's Lawful Neutral who thinks she's Lawful Good because in her eyes Good = Lord Shojo's Laws, and she's got a serious confusion of the difference between Law and Good.

    I was so hoping the OotS would have just killed her on the spot, and Belkar could have put her head on a pike and they could have walked on. The strip has been a lot less entertaining since gotten away from dungeon crawls and fighting Xylon to being Miko's (now literal) slaves.

    Personally, I'm just waiting for the Miko Railroad to end so the OotS can get back on to what it's good at, and looking forward to the strip where she dies.
    Well, this is the beauty of it all: different DMs interpret differently, and there IS more to paladins than the basic mold (although I personally like the basic "do good, lead by example" version best). Thus Miko creates such varied responses in different persons. She might be the Giant's greatest character in the OOTS strip for this reason.

    Personally, I'm happy that the OOTSers didn't kill her.

    What I'd kind of would like to see (not that it seems likely to happen) is that once they reach Miko's Lord, it turns out that her culture isn't that different from the OOTSers' after all; it's all about Miko and her "stick up the..." class feature. The Lord would consider things (using Detect Lie as needed) and vindicate the OOTSers, and chastise Miko. Then, OBVIOUSLY (because this is how these things work, don't you know?), the OOTSers would go on a quest to restore balance to the universe, and as punishment Miko would be ordered to go with them, under Roy's command. (And from there, the possibilities are endless.)

  9. - Top - End - #639
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Dwarf71
    She then caught the leader flat footed with a surprise attack. She has no compunctions whatsoever in using these advantages.
    She asks them if they are ready to fight, they were - there's no surprise round.
    Say Miko won initiative - and does nothing, because she won't attack them while they're flatfooted.
    The ogres don't know how to take this, and out of confusion they also do nothing (I doubt there's a game mechanic for this, just a DM call)
    The round of noone doing anything is panels 2 and 3 of #215 - the confusion idea is based on what the leader says in panel 4 - which seems to indicate that the battle has started and Miko hasn't attacked yet.
    With the first round over, noone's flatfooted, and Miko has no problems with killing the leader.

    At least, that's how I read it.
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    I think it would be quite interesting if a Paladin of Freedom showed up. Most likley won't happen, but It would provide some interesting character conflict between Miko and the PoF. By his very code of conduct, he would have to free the Order of the Stick. Then maybe he could accompany the Order to ensure their freedom. Definately won't happen, but it would be interesting, No?

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Did Sir Lancelot or Sir Gawain ever need warrants and jurisdiction? Did Roland? Hercules? Odysseus? Theseus? Any Errol Flynn characther? Gandalf?

    This isn't Law and Order of the Stick
    Woo, I say woo

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    I'm surprised that no one (that I've seen...apologies if it's been said and I've missed it) has mentioned the 'hell hath no fury' idea yet - maybe part of the savagery behind Miko's attack comes from ...well, I think a broken heart would be too strong; but if she was starting to have feelings for Roy (bear in mind she may not have been letting them show very much, or be conflicted within herself as to having feelings for someone she's 'supposed to' dislike), Roy's rather brutal rejection could have fuelled her rage. And they do say that all's fair in love and war.

    But oh, what a time for V to not have prepared Explosive Runes this morning! :P
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by eof
    If the OOTSers had &quot;tailored&quot; their attacks against Miko, I think V would have:

    - Cast Fly immediately after being healed, then taken to the air (30' up), immediately putting him/her beyond any attack Miko normally can muster (melee only).

    - Cast Greater Invisibility, getting a +2 attack bonus to his/her ranged attack rolls and denying Miko any DEX bonus to her AC (which should be SIGNIFICANT), assuming of course Miko doesn't have the Blind-Fight feat.

    - Cast any ranged touch spell, like Disintegrate which already was mentioned by the Giant. Repeat until desired result is accomplished. If still going by the time Greater Invisibility ends (unlikely), swap for other spells that don't require hit rolls.

    But V didn't. So IMO, they didn't expect Miko to attack, and thus what they said wasn't meant as a challenge.
    Maybe V just didn't have either of those spells memorized. It seems quite clear to me that he is mostly focused on pure destructive spells like lightning bolt, fireball and disintegration.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    V does have invisibility sphere. But she wasn't able to get her hands on the 'good' fly spell.

    Anyway, the Order of the Stick broke a universal law, and is being taken to Lord Shojo to be tried for that. That's how I see it, at least.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by NullAshton
    V does have invisibility sphere. But she wasn't able to get her hands on the 'good' fly spell.

    Anyway, the Order of the Stick broke a universal law, and is being taken to Lord Shojo to be tried for that. That's how I see it, at least.
    Which would only justify miko's actions if shojo was a universal judge. Aka God.

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by phlip
    She asks them if they are ready to fight, they were - there's no surprise round.
    Say Miko won initiative - and does nothing, because she won't attack them while they're flatfooted.
    The ogres don't know how to take this, and out of confusion they also do nothing (I doubt there's a game mechanic for this, just a DM call)
    The round of noone doing anything is panels 2 and 3 of #215 - the confusion idea is based on what the leader says in panel 4 - which seems to indicate that the battle has started and Miko hasn't attacked yet.
    With the first round over, noone's flatfooted, and Miko has no problems with killing the leader.

    At least, that's how I read it.
    It's obviously up for interpretation, but I see it as he let down his guard when she didn't attack immediately. One round with no action on either side means to me that it's a new fight. He let down his guard to ask why she wasn't fighting(essentially) and she surprised him in the middle of his question. Thus, surprise attack and him flat footed. (I could be wrong on the one round thing though. I'm no DM)
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Lazarous

    Which would only justify miko's actions if shojo was a universal judge. Aka God.
    Or had a divine mandate to prevent the ultimate destruction of the world through the desctruction of the Gates, which it is very likely he has.

    Also, being Lawfully aligned does not mean obeying the laws (little &quot;l&quot;) of every pissant nation through which you pass. It means adhering to a consistent set of morals, which Miko clearly does.
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Simon
    You misunderstand. *Miko would be tied up, not the Order.
    Boy, did I ever. This is, however, a new and interesting usage of the word &quot;led&quot; I've not seen before... :)

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Cirin
    She ignores the laws of the nation she is in to impose her own laws on people outside her own land. *The OotS was not in Lord Shojo's lands when they destroyed the gate, so Shojo has no right to send his bounty hunter after them. *

    How would Miko act if the King of Nowhere sent a Knight to arrest her for something she did on Lord Shojo's lands that the King of Nowhere considered a crime? *Would she obediently leave her homeland and go with a foriegn official to a distant land to answer for a capitol crime that was not against the law where you did it? *
    Interesting how you repeatedly assume that Shojo is a secular leader and that he is acting based on the legal procedures of a mortal nation. Instead of, you know, a direct servant of one or more gods granted a holy mandate that knows no borders. Generally, paladins and clerics can be following a divine law that is, in their eyes, superior to any law written by Man and still be 100% Lawful.

    It's also interesting that everyone thinks Miko captured the OOTSers in another nation, rather than the lawless region just outside Wooden Forest, and that she is somehow breaking the law of the Kingdom of Somewhere when she just personally saved the king from a burning building. Generally, in an absolute monarchy, saving the king's life gives you a free pass to do whatever you want. The fact that the only thing Miko does with that freedom is enforce her Lord's will is about as Lawful as you can get.

    If you want to argue that Miko is only borderline Good, go ahead; that is, in many ways the very point of the character and the main thrust of #251. But to say she's not LAWFUL? No. From the description of Lawful:
    &quot;Lawful characters tell the truth, keep their word, respect authority, honor tradition, and judge those who fall short of their duties.&quot;

    Let's see...
    • Tell the truth: Miko has never lied, to the best of our ability to tell.
    • Keep their word: Miko risked her life to keep her word to her lord that she would bring those responsible to justice.
    • Respect authority: She certainly respects Shojo's authority, as well as that of her gods. She probably also respected the King of Somewhere, though that was off-panel. She also respected Durkon, who while not strictly an authority does count as an &quot;elder&quot; to Miko. Note this does NOT say, &quot;Obey every law you come across.&quot;
    • Honor tradition: Such as the traditions of her homeland? Check.
    • Judge those who fall short of their duties: Oh hell yes.

    Remember, folks, being Lawful has NEVER meant you obey every law for every nation whose borders you cross. You can choose to have a character that acts like that, but it is NOT part of the alignment description. After all, such a character would be required to obey the mandates of an orc chieftain the moment she entered his swamp. They would be seen as wishy-washy and easily swayed, kowtowing to whatever person could assert themselves the strongest.

    Most lawful characters, though, will pick a certain set of authorities that they respect and ignore all others as &quot;illegitimate&quot;. An LG cleric of Pelor doesn't obey the authority of the High Priest of Vecna, for example. That doesn't make the cleric not Lawful.
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    As for your first point, Giant, it was probably the feudal title that confused most of us. Also, in many campaign worlds there exist orders of Paladin who venerate a deity or the concept of Lawful Good, but with secular missions, e.g. enforcing the laws of a Lawful Good monarchy. We also know that Miko a Samurai. This means, at least in real life, that she is a vassal of a feudal lord. This again implies that Shojo has some sort of political standing as well as the authority to order this Sapphire Guard around. Unless, of course, Shojo is merely the head of her order, and another person is her daimyo. Hmm...

    As for your other points...all good ones. Miko certainly upholds Lawfulness. Hell, if she were slightly more prejudiced and not so good at tactics and threat assessment, she'd be Lawful Stupid.
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Slibs
    This isn't Law and Order of the Stick
    Now that's funny. I might have to get cable if they ever make that show. ;D
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Miko haters everywhere seem to be up in arms.

    However, take heart, as eventually they will have to make camp - barring more railroad plotting. When that happens, this will occur:

    That Night
    Durkon will heal the party. Miko, being lawful good, won't really be able to refuse without attacking Durkon -besides, she knows he is a good priest, so that path is auto-paladin loss.

    During The Night
    Exhausted, people will have to sleep - except for good ol' V, who being an elf needs two hours rest/day. That's a lot of time for hir to play with.

    V wakes Haley. Haley, being a high-level rogue with a good dexterity, easily beasts the Escape Artist DC to escape the manacles. Then she pulls a lock pick from her hair to free Belkar and V.

    Haley moves like a ghost, retrieving weapons by easily beating Windstrider's and sleeping Miko's Spot/Listen checks.

    The three of them work a quick plan. Sure, Haley's limited to sign language, but V is bright enough to catch her meaning. And Belkar may lack wisdom, but not smarts - at least, not cunning for work such as this.

    Surprise round
    Haley will sneak attack Miko. Read the Giant's post, she put Elan into negative HP, nearly killing him. That puts the paladin into an exclusive club shared only by Nale (from the events of the comic, at any rate). No way is Haley going to let that go.
    V kicks off another disintegrate. Giant's batlle description only shows hir casting one, we know V can cast two. Sleeping Miko will get hit and will fail her save, taking 2d6x V's level damage plus Haley's sneak attack

    Belkar, goes after the horse, of course, of course. Windstriker may be tough, but Belkar's got the drop, his weapons, and rage (the emotion and the class feature). The horse can't stun him, and unless it has improved grapple (unlikely - last time, the horse had surprise), that tactic won't fly again. I'm not saying that Windstiker's not tough - just that he won't be a match for the little psychopath when he's ready.

    Round One
    Haley has initiative and sneak attacks Miko again.
    Miko goes next, but she's not in a good position. Haley and V know the rules of the game (heck, they've both given lectures on them) and are more that five feet away from her, so she can attack one, but not both, and will make only one attack when she does. Whoever she goes after, the other will take her down, given she's already taken at least 1d6 damage for each of V and Haley's levels. If she goes after Haley, V will likely finish her off this round. If she goes after V, the elf can make the will save vs. stunning fist (since apparently OotS house rules have Stunning Fist using will saves) , Haley will come, flank, and sneak attack.

    Round Two
    Miko goes down, whichever path she took last round. Because the Oots are good guys, they wake Durkon to heal her (if they didn't kill Nale or Sam, they won't kill her - sorry, Miko haters!). They may even go to Shojo- but it will be the paladin in chains, not them!

    Unfortunately for Miko, Belkar is harvesting Windstrider's kidneys right about now.

    At least, that's what would happen if the OotS wasn't being railroaded. As it is, something extremely funny will happen instead :)

    There - now that everyone's read a blow-by-blow of the uppity one getting her posterior kicked, could we all just chill the heck out and wait for Friday's comic?
    In MY day, we didn't have character generation programs. We didn't even have character sheets to photocopy. We had to use ordinary lined paper. And we LIKED it!!

  23. - Top - End - #653
    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Nerd-o-rama
    Hell, if she were slightly more prejudiced and not so good at tactics and threat assessment, she'd be Lawful Stupid.
    What do you mean, 'would be'? She's the very epitome of the narrow-minded, arrogant, stuck-up, self-righteous Lawful Stupid paladin. Characters role-played like Miko are the sole reason why so many people wince at the mere mention of the word ''paladin&quot; and outright barf at the uttered sentence &quot;I think I'll make myself a paladin this time round&quot;. She's like the perfect summary of how not to play a paladin... unless you want to end up brutally murdered and dismembered by your own party mates.

  24. - Top - End - #654
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    I'm sorry to say I think Roy's behaviour in 151 is even more contemptable than his actions in 150. Even if one accepted that there was some basis for his harsh opinion of Miko, that does not mean he was right to disregard his moral responsibility for the destruction of the portal and the subsequent damage to the structure of Reality. Frankly, I had thought, up till then that the other members of the Order were being grossly unfair to Roy when they accused him of cooperating with Miko only because he wanted to 'bone' her. I had thought that while Roy felt some attraction to Miko, he also realized that he and the other members of the Order had a moral obligation to do what they could to make restitution for Elan's destruction of the portal. *But apparently I was wrong; when Roy agreed to let Miko arrest the Order, he was simply listening to his 'trouser titan'.
    I suspect that after this moral failure on Roy's part, Lord Shojo will insist that Miko monitor and supervise the future actions of the Order of the Stick, simply because Roy has so noticably failed to hold to the standards of Lawful Good. (Lord Shojo is also unlikely to be impressed with Roy's abilities as a strategic planner, once he learns that Roy failed to kill Xykon because he didn't know that every Lich has a *phylactery. Why didn't he have this vital piece of information? Didn't Roy bother to research the strengths and weaknesses of the Lich during his lifelong quest to destroy Xykon?) Miko may have to assume a position in some ways similar to that of a probation officer. The Order might have some sort of Geas placed upon them, in order to insure that they follow Miko's directives..










  25. - Top - End - #655
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    NecromancerGuy

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Roy didn't destroy the portal. Elan destryed the portal, and there was no way he could have known that it was a bad thing.

    If someone rigs a bomb to my computer, such that it goes off when I read OOTS, I'm the one who set off the bomb, but I had no way of knowing that my actions would lead to bad outcomes.

  26. - Top - End - #656
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    Duraska's Avatar

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    You guys are interesting. From reading all the anti-Miko posts that have completely overrun this forum, I can only come to the following conclusion:

    Most people here think it's far better to be &quot;nice&quot; than &quot;good.&quot;

    Case in point, Miko and Belkar.

    Belkar can kill innocent people, discuss killing an entire town, stab Roy just for kicks, make sexual advances on Roy even while clearly knowing that it makes him uncomfortable, directly cause the destruction of an inn (and a large portion of the group's treasure), and discuss murdering his family and friends -- AND YOU LOVE HIM!

    Miko, on the other hand, seems to be a bit aloof and isn't quite polite to some of the group, follows her orders and arrests them for a crime they DID commit -- AND SUDDENLY SHE'S TERRIBLE!

    Come on people! It seems like you would forgive an axe murderer as long as he smiled politely at you, yet condemn a stern man, even if he rescued 500 children from a burning building.

    Now THAT'S a bit odd I think. :D

    Miko's not that bad... really.

  27. - Top - End - #657
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    evileeyore's Avatar

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by OldFart
    Miko haters everywhere seem to be up in arms.

    However, take heart, as eventually they will have to make camp - barring more railroad plotting. When that happens, this will occur:
    Not likely. V will remain chained and gagged. More than likely everyone but Durkon will be chained apart from one another to keep escape attampts to a minimum. Anything V could do to awaken Haley, would likely awaken someone else.

    If its:
    Elan all is good. Elan can likely help with the escape attampt.
    Durkon is bad. He will have sworn or been made to swear to help bring them to Shojo. At the very least he'd have to stop escape attampts.
    Belkar is eh... He is just likely to be as useless as tits on a bowl.
    Roy is bad. He to would have to put a stop to any escape attampts or at the least argue them out of it.
    Miko... well that won't help matters any.

    I really doubt there will be any escapes unless Haley breaks herslef free and sneaks off to try to plan a daring rescue attempt.

    That Night
    Durkon will heal the party. Miko, being lawful good, won't really be able to refuse without attacking Durkon -besides, she knows he is a good priest, so that path is auto-paladin loss.
    It is very likely she'll order D to heal them, if she doesn't do it herself.

    [quote]During The Night
    Exhausted, people will have to sleep - except for good ol' V, who being an elf needs two hours rest/day. That's a lot of time for hir to play with.

    V wakes Haley. Haley, being a high-level rogue with a good dexterity, easily beasts the Escape Artist DC to escape the manacles. Then she pulls a lock pick from her hair to free Belkar and V.{/quote]It is possible. But more than likely she would free Roy before she'd free Belkar. Roy can plan, Belkar might just stab her in back and take the opportunity to gut the whole crew whil helpless. There is little to no chance she'd trust him.

    Haley moves like a ghost, retrieving weapons by easily beating Windstrider's and sleeping Miko's Spot/Listen checks.

    The three of them work a quick plan. Sure, Haley's limited to sign language, but V is bright enough to catch her meaning. And Belkar may lack wisdom, but not smarts - at least, not cunning for work such as this.
    Windstrider will have been put back in the Celestial Poke-ball for the evening.

    Actually the more I think about it there is no reason Miko would even be asleep. there aren't even rules for it...

    So the rest of your speculation is likely pointless.;)
    EvilEeyore AntiSocialite

  28. - Top - End - #658
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    Wrecan's Avatar

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Sylvius
    Elan destryed the portal, and there was no way he could have known that it was a bad thing.
    Elan knew it was a self-destruct rune and he pushed it anyway.

    Why? Because he has no Wisdom. He is dengerously naive.

    He knew it was a bad thing because he knew it was self-destruct. He just didn't know how bad until later.

    Elan's not evil. He's just criminally stupid.

    Roy, as his leader, is responsible for his actions. Not to say Roy deseres execution, but he certainly should go to Shojo and plead his case.
    Here is a numbering of all character appearances in OOTS

  29. - Top - End - #659
    Halfling in the Playground
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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    I agree with Duraska that Belkar is far worse than Miko.
    I'd like to quote a statement Roy made in episode 204, when he explained exactly why he was prepared to cooperate with Miko.
    &quot;Elan DID destroy that gate when he set off the self- destruct rune, and we're all accessories because we helped him get there. So we are all going to suck it up and let her take us to her master, where we will do our best to explain the extenuating circumstances.&quot;

    I respected Roy a lot when he made that statement. It was exactly the sort of thing a lawful good leader would say. I'd like to ask those who are so upset with Miko why they think Roy is right to disregard the statement he made on 204?

  30. - Top - End - #660
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: Order of the Stick: November II

    Quote Originally Posted by Doshi
    Even if one accepted that there was some basis for his harsh opinion of Miko, that does not mean he was right to disregard his moral responsibility for the destruction of the portal and the subsequent damage to the structure of Reality.
    The moral responsiblity for that belongs to Dorukan, who built a self-destructing castle around an important Gate. Elan just pushed the button. And Roy was just standing nearby.

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