Order of the Stick: November II

[Omellette]

If I was the DM here, Miko would be on the borderline of losing her Paladinhood, if not having just lost it from that attack being the last straw. Not from any single action, but from a long pattern of behavior that is putting her entire alignment in jeopardy, she's Lawful Neutral who thinks she's Lawful Good because in her eyes Good = Lord Shojo's Laws, and she's got a serious confusion of the difference between Law and Good.

See, this is what I think, as well. I guess that, since the "Paladin" class still has the LG requirement, she's really pushing the limits of the Good portion of her alignment.

Lawful? Hell yeah -- I think I was pretty clear on that previously, but if not, she's nothing if not Lawful. But Good? I'm not so sure. If I didn't know her class, I would immediately assume LN, based upon her actions.

And eof, I think you're right -- that there is more than one way to interpret "Paladin". But, since she has a Paladin mount, it seems logical assume we're talking a core rules Paladin, which is LG. I agree with you, as I wondered yesterday, why we can't have paladins of ANY alignment -- defenders of their own respective faith, just a legitimate as a defender of a LG faith. But it doesn't seem that non-LG "paladins" have this kind of a mount.

Well, anyways. I also like the idea posted that she brings them to Shojo, who when learning the truth of everything, strips her of her "paladin-hood" and casts her out. Hehe, that would be high comedy, since she'd obviously hook up with Roy and the gang...

[Draedan]

Personally, I dont hate Miko, I just dont like the way she is acting. I am hoping she will losen up later and stop being so...disagreable.

I like the Idea of Shojo making her go on a quest with the OotS under Roys command.

[Sylvius]

Come on people! It seems like you would forgive an axe murderer as long as he smiled politely at you, yet condemn a stern man, even if he rescued 500 children from a burning building.

Politeness counts for a lot. But then, I'm Canadian. I think being polite is vastly more important than being friendly.

[Cirin]

Interesting how you repeatedly assume that Shojo is a secular leader and that he is acting based on the legal procedures of a mortal nation. Instead of, you know, a direct servant of one or more gods granted a holy mandate that knows no borders. Generally, paladins and clerics can be following a divine law that is, in their eyes, superior to any law written by Man and still be 100% Lawful.

It's also interesting that everyone thinks Miko captured the OOTSers in another nation, rather than the lawless region just outside Wooden Forest, and that she is somehow breaking the law of the Kingdom of Somewhere when she just personally saved the king from a burning building. Generally, in an absolute monarchy, saving the king's life gives you a free pass to do whatever you want. The fact that the only thing Miko does with that freedom is enforce her Lord's will is about as Lawful as you can get.

If you want to argue that Miko is only borderline Good, go ahead; that is, in many ways the very point of the character and the main thrust of #251. But to say she's not LAWFUL? No.

I never said Miko wasn't Lawful (in alignment), just that her behavior would be criminal to the nation she was in, since she had no legiitmate law enforcement powers there. A local Knight or Paladin enforcing the local laws would see an obvious foriegner carrying people off in chains, and could easily assume it's a slaver or the like. I stand by my statement that I see her alignment strongly drifting towards LN, and she's only a borderline Paladin.

It would be fun to see Miko square off with another Paladin who follows another set of laws, which are clearly in conflict, and won't let them pass since he refuses to recognize her authority. Some people here have been trying to argue that killing a Paladin is automatically an evil act worthy of an alignment shift, what happens when two Paladins are set directly against each other by their codes and laws?

Why do people think Miko captured the OotS in another nation instead of uncivilized wilderness? Generally because places that have roads through them, get a lot of traffic, have farms built, and are safe enough for people to build a huge multi-story inn complex that sees Royal traffic often enough to build a Royal Suite would be under somebody's protection and soveriegnty, at least nominally, especially in a setting where powerful wandering monsters can be roaming. Places people travel and live tend to have people who claim rulership over those lands, at least loosely.

Also, as for Shojo being a secular leader and secular laws, that is how he's been generally depicted, as Miko's liege. Shojo might claim divine mandate, but pretty much all kings do, both in the real world and in a fantasy setting. Shojo has only been depicted as another ruler from some place nobody had ever heard of before this that took offense at Elan pushing the Self Destruct button and sent an unstoppable uber-NPC off to railroad the OotS. If it was divine laws were broken and the gods themselves were demanding reparations, I would have expected the gods to get involved: a vision, an omen (since the storm during Miko's arrival was explicltly shown not to be Thor giving an intentional omen), Durkar casting Commune and Thor telling him he's getting complaints about their behavior from other deities, not a Monk/Paladin "Samurai" who demands justice in the name of her liege (not in the name of the God of Magic, or God of Justice ect).

I guess the reason that so many people are upset with this is, obvious railroading sucks to be on the recieving end of, and watching somebody else get railroaded is a sore nerve with a lot of gamers. Many of us have been in a blatant railroading case before, and don't like to relive it. We love the OotS, but we'd rather see them kicking Orc butt and dungeon crawling than suffering Miko's arrogance.

[Dark]

Hmm. Now that Miko is the new leader (trial by combat), the Order will need a new name and logo. The Order of the Stick up the Ass :)

[Gary_Schaper]

Frankly, I think that Shojo is more than justified in asserting authority over the Order for their actions, by virtue of his knowledge of the Gates. That's typically all the justification that heroes need for their actions, isn't it? Whether it's strictly legal is another question -- but, then we're back to Miko acting more according to the dictates of Good than of Law. (Letting the universe be destroyed is rarely a Good action.)

And I fail to see how Miko's arrogance changes the original reasons that Roy claimed he was submitting to her authority. (He may have actually decided to surrender for a different reason, but that's hardly Miko's fault.) Roy is entirely correct about her attitude, but he took his reaction way too far.

[Stick_Rider]

Seems to me that she has been completely LG. She's sent to capture some bad guys. When she gets there she discovers that they're not Evil (well, not all of them).

So she captures them alive and brings them back for judgement. When she spots the dirt farmers being terrorized by the ogres, she stops to help them.

Where's the non-good part of this? A paladin isn't compelled to act by her enemy's concept of good. Just because the OOTS got their heads handed to them in a fight doesn't means she's not Good.

The argument that you can't sneak attack when you're good... That doesn't hold up. This case is a great example: she has an obligation to bring these prisoners back. However, she probably won't be able to take them down in a straight up fight (it's not raining this time). They've already declared that she's going to have to fight them. Sneak attack is the only option.

[Omellette]

Oh, one other thing that I probably think about too much, haha...

All this recent mention of railroading the party. If it's such a railroad plot, why has it taken us well over 100 strips to get us this far along?

;-)

It might have been a railroad moment in this last fight, but I doubt it. I think this will all tie in together with the two previous "main threads", someday...

In any case, I'm enjoying the funny!

[Sylvius]

S/he probably won't make a Concentration check to cast Disintegrate defensively, and the enemies will likely make any Will saves required.

This surprised me. We've already seen V manage to cast Cone of Cold defensively while surrounded by goblins and annoyed by Elan.

http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gian...otscript?SK=41

[Duraska]

Politeness counts for a lot. But then, I'm Canadian. I think being polite is vastly more important than being friendly.

I wasn't debating "polite" versus "friendly," I was debating "polite and friendly" versus "good." It seems like people would prefer to be around a completely evil person who would smile to your face before he stabs you in the back, than a stern person who does what's right.

I dont understand why Miko takes such flak when Belkar (who should be killed on the spot... it would be good for the universe) is considered an "okay guy."

[Eriol]

It would be fun to see Miko square off with another Paladin who follows another set of laws, which are clearly in conflict, and won't let them pass since he refuses to recognize her authority. Some people here have been trying to argue that killing a Paladin is automatically an evil act worthy of an alignment shift, what happens when two Paladins are set directly against each other by their codes and laws?

Personally I'm not much for your argument, but this paragraph had me thinking of a certain other Paladin that the Order could conceivably meet in the future, who is more "Good" than "lawful" (though he is that too, but not like Miko), and who also would understand Roy quite well (despite likely never having met him).

OTOOPCs people know who I mean...

[evileeyore]

Oh, one other thing that I probably think about too much, haha...

All this recent mention of railroading the party. If it's such a railroad plot, why has it taken us well over 100 strips to get us this far along?

;-)

It might have been a railroad moment in this last fight, but I doubt it. I think this will all tie in together with the two previous "main threads", someday...

In any case, I'm enjoying the funny!

Either one of two things...

A) It is a railroad in the classic sense that the party has had no choice since Miko showed up. It was her way or the chains from day one, it just took 100 strips to get to the chains...

or
B) Roy is 'sour-graping'. The OotS legitimately fumbled the ball and Roy is blaming 'Bad DMing' by calling it a railroad plot.

Either way I am highly amused. It is likely to skewer the old cliched NTaTATW plot. (Naked Tied and Taken Against Their Will)

[BurntOfferings]

Come on people! It seems like you would forgive an axe murderer as long as he smiled politely at you, yet condemn a stern man, even if he rescued 500 children from a burning building.

Now THAT'S a bit odd I think. :D

Miko's not that bad... really.

I cannot recall any strip where Belkar smiled "politely." We forgive Belkar for the simple reason that he makes us laugh. Hard. Over and over. Miko has only done that once for me. ("It's a class feature." Heh.)

Just look at Elan in the last panel of 251 and tell me that Miko isn't a future blackguard racking up paladin levels for the extra powers. Look at him, I say!

;)

[Duraska]

Just look at Elan in the last panel of 251 and tell me that Miko isn't a future blackguard racking up paladin levels for the extra powers. Look at him, I say!

;)

What about him? Oh no! The boy-idiot's sad. Too bad.

...Okay, that's kind of harsh, as Elan is "relatively" good natured (if not completely stupid). Please notice that Elan is chained next in line to Miko, which means she probably trusted him more than the others. Of course, if you ignore Belkar, they're chained up in alphabetical order, but still.

I personally don't find Belkar all that funny, but to each his own. I'm hoping Miko kills him and takes his place in the party. :)

[Sylko]

i agree with him ^^ ;D

[eof]

Roy didn't destroy the portal. Elan destryed the portal, and there was no way he could have known that it was a bad thing.

If someone rigs a bomb to my computer, such that it goes off when I read OOTS, I'm the one who set off the bomb, but I had no way of knowing that my actions would lead to bad outcomes.

I'd not go so far as to claim that ignorance is an excuse in all cases, but in this specific instance, I agree with you; I think that it at least partly kind of would.

I think an even better comparison would be someone placing a nuke in some capital somewhere, with a trigger reading "Pressing this button is a very bad idea. Don't press this button." Of course, sooner or later some moron is going to come along and press the button. Is the fault to be placed upon whoever placed the nuke and its trigger in the capital, or the moron who triggered it? Neither is completely blameless, but IMO whoever set up the situation in the first place is the guilty party.

[eof]

I'd like to quote a statement Roy made in episode 204, when he explained exactly why he was prepared to cooperate with Miko.
"Elan DID destroy that gate when he set off the self- destruct rune, and we're all accessories because we helped him get there. So we are all going to suck it up and let her take us to her master, where we will do our best to explain the extenuating circumstances."

I respected Roy a lot when he made that statement. It was exactly the sort of thing a lawful good leader would say. I'd like to ask those who are so upset with Miko why they think Roy is right to disregard the statement he made on 204?

First of all, those are seperate issues. Your suggestion that being upset with Miko means that Roy's action is considered ok is invalid.

Having said that, I don't think Roy did the right thing, just there. But I think it can be justified: Roy has just drawn conclusions about Miko and her outlook on life, and just maybe by extension also that of her Lord. He originally thought that Miko was a typical paladin, and as such, he accepted her authority because he thought her outlook on life matched his own. He has now revised his view of Miko, and challenges her authority because he now realizes they don't share the same set of morals. I think that had he initially known what he now knows about Miko, he'd have challenged her authority back then as well. And since Miko is the representative of her Lord, he by extension challenges her Lord's authority as well, for the same reason.

[eof]

And eof, I think you're right -- that there is more than one way to interpret "Paladin". But, since she has a Paladin mount, it seems logical assume we're talking a core rules Paladin, which is LG. I agree with you, as I wondered yesterday, why we can't have paladins of ANY alignment -- defenders of their own respective faith, just a legitimate as a defender of a LG faith. But it doesn't seem that non-LG "paladins" have this kind of a mount.

I seem to recall (too lazy to look it up) that Blackguards get some sort of "mount" as well. It is probably not too far fetched to assume that there can be different variants of mounts for all classes with the "paladin warhorse" class feature.

And when I said that there is more than one way to interpret paladin, I didn't necessarily mean that the "paladin" would have to be something else than LG. The classic paladin is rather extreme LG, but certainly there can be LG paladins that definately lean towards LN alignment, while still being LG. Like Miko.

Other things that confuse the alignment debate is INT and WIS. A good character (like Elan) can do extremely stupid things (like blowing up the castle, and thus the gate) that have "evil" outcomes (like weakening the fabric of the universe), but that doesn't mean s/he is evil. Low INT and WIS tend to make such occurances more likely.

[eof]

I wasn't debating "polite" versus "friendly," I was debating "polite and friendly" versus "good." It seems like people would prefer to be around a completely evil person who would smile to your face before he stabs you in the back, than a stern person who does what's right.

I dont understand why Miko takes such flak when Belkar (who should be killed on the spot... it would be good for the universe) is considered an "okay guy."

Belkar isn't an "okay guy." He's CE. That pretty much rules out any chances of considering him "okay." BUT, Belkar isn't a paladin, either. Miko is. As a paladin, she's "supposed" to be an example for others to aspire to, a champion for good in particular, and law as well. Miko doesn't do too well on the "champion of good" part. Belkar would do even worse, but then, he's not LG and not a paladin.

Is Belkar a less decent individual? Certainly. But he is CE, he does what is expected of him. Miko is LG but possibly just as devoid of empathy as Belkar, and as LG that is a highly questionable attitude.

In the context of what their characters "should be," Miko fails to a far greater extent than Belkar. Combine this failure on her part with the "I'm a paladin and thus always right" attitude paladins tend to dsplay from time to time, and you've got something that will grate on most people's nerves.

[eof]

A paladin isn't compelled to act by her enemy's concept of good. Just because the OOTS got their heads handed to them in a fight doesn't means she's not Good.

Of course defeating the OOTSers doesn't make her non-good. If it did, she'd have lost her paladin features by the end of the 251st strip, and would have been walking rather than riding.

As for not being compelled to act by her enemy's concept of good, that is also true. But neither is it ok to act by her own concept of good. Good is an absolute, and how people perceive it is irrelevant. If it wasn't, a CE character could consider himself LG and take levels in paladin, which I'm sure you'll agree is a rather absurd concept.

The argument that you can't sneak attack when you're good... That doesn't hold up. This case is a great example: she has an obligation to bring these prisoners back. However, she probably won't be able to take them down in a straight up fight (it's not raining this time). They've already declared that she's going to have to fight them. Sneak attack is the only option.

This depends, again, on how you choose to read the end of the conversation. IMO, if the OOTSers had intended their statements to be an actual challenge rather than bravado and bluster, she would not have been able to surprise them; they would have been prepared for her to attack.

And in any case, she still could have tried to convince them. But thinking with her swords is easier for Miko, by all accounts.

[Cirin]

Interesting how you repeatedly assume that Shojo is a secular leader and that he is acting based on the legal procedures of a mortal nation. Instead of, you know, a direct servant of one or more gods granted a holy mandate that knows no borders.

Another note on this point, we generally assume that because that's how D&D fantasy worlds generally work. Greyhawk, Forgotten Realms, Dragonlance and Eberron don't have a single nation which imposes it's own divinely mandated laws on the rest of the world, fully overriding local laws and jurisdiction. A lot of nations in fantasy (and historic reality) have claimed a divine right to their law, but practically they know that ends at their borders, because the next kingdom over with a divine right starts to take offense.

This is a world that has many different kingdoms and realms, at least one Democratic country, Elven, Dwarven and Dark Elf homelands at least too, but somewhere there is a single kingdom nobody else has apparently heard of that has actual definiative divine mandate to enforce it's laws on the rest of the world whether they like it or not? Even if those nations don't even acknowledge the god that gave Shojo his power?

The gods actually favor one single little country over all others by making its ruler the actual divinely empowered enforcer of justice in the entire world?

For example, is the King of Nowhere is accountable to Lord Shojo if Shojo rules that the King of Nowhere has committed an offense, and Shojo is divinely backed if he sends an army to conquer Nowhere and capture it's King to bring his divine law to them? Instead of local Paladins and Clerics getting the call from their gods to make it right, the gods turn to Lord Shojo to enforce their laws throughout the entire world?

[Slibs]

So its Pope Shojo?

[BurntOfferings]

This all assumes that Miko actually sleeps (there're no rules for it, after all). ;)

Surprise round
Haley will sneak attack Miko. Read the Giant's post, she put Elan into negative HP, nearly killing him. That puts the paladin into an exclusive club shared only by Nale (from the events of the comic, at any rate). No way is Haley going to let that go.

So why would Haley merely sneak attack instead of administer a coup-de-grace? If she's this mad, she may not be interested in taking prisoners. By my careful calculations, the Fortitude save DC to survive a coup-de-grace sneak attack from a 12th level rogue is about a gazillion. Okay, it's only 38 (assuming she attacks with Elan's rapier and inflicts average damage), but that's still in "roll a 20 or die" realm. And if she does want her alive, perhaps the DM would allow a sub-dual coup-de-grace. Seems weird, but it was either in the WotC "Rules of the Game" article series or in the main D&D FAQ. Basically it's the same as a regular coup-de-grace, except that damage is subdual, and on a failed save the target's subdual damage is set to 10 more than his current hit points. Haley can use an unarmed strike to do subdual sneak attack damage. The save DC would be lower, though, since her unarmed strike does less damage than Elan's rapier.

V kicks off another disintegrate. Giant's batlle description only shows hir casting one, we know V can cast two. Sleeping Miko will get hit and will fail her save, taking 2d6x V's level damage plus Haley's sneak attack.

Well, Miko's denied her Dex bonus now, but V's saddled with a -8 penalty on his attack roll since Miko is prone (ranged attacks get -4 to hit) and in melee (Haley just attacked her). Also, she's no longer helpless, so even though she still loses her Dex bonus for being flatfooted, her effective Dex is no longer 0. If V fires first while Miko is still asleep and Haley is 10 or more feet away, then things get more interesting. V still gets the -4 penalty for Miko being prone, but he only has to hit AC 5 + any deflection bonuses Miko happens to have. :)

Round One
Haley has initiative and sneak attacks Miko again.

Twice!

Miko goes next, but she's not in a good position.

Being prone next to an armed enemy is definitely not a good position. :-)

Haley and V know the rules of the game (heck, they've both given lectures on them) and are more that five feet away from her, so she can attack one, but not both, and will make only one attack when she does.

Nah. Haley's definitely right there next to her, waiting for her to get up and provoke an AoO. Miko may choose to attack while prone, but that -4 to hit is going to hurt. If V has a melee weapon, he may be next to her as well to provide flanking, but only if he had a chance to buff himself with mage armor and shield before hand.

Whoever she goes after, the other will take her down, given she's already taken at least 1d6 damage for each of V and Haley's levels. If she goes after Haley, V will likely finish her off this round. If she goes after V, the elf can make the will save vs. stunning fist (since apparently OotS house rules have Stunning Fist using will saves), Haley will come, flank, and sneak attack.

If V is more than 10 feet away, she won't even be able to reach him. She has to spend a move action to stand up. If a 5 foot step won't get her next to him, she can't attack him.

Round Two
Miko goes down, whichever path she took last round. Because the Oots are good guys, they wake Durkon to heal her (if they didn't kill Nale or Sam, they won't kill her - sorry, Miko haters!).

I'm pretty sure that the result of casting heal on a pile of dust is still just a pile of dust (indistinguishable from the dust of a dragon, dwarf or halfling, by the way). You don't cast disintegrate on someone you want to take prisoner. ;)

[Sylvius]

Facing a single foe with a Cleric in your party shouldn't be that difficult.

Is Command still no-save?

[Fairome]

(Lord Shojo is also unlikely to be impressed with Roy's abilities as a strategic planner, once he learns that Roy failed to kill Xykon because he didn't know that every Lich has a phylactery. Why didn't he have this vital piece of information? Didn't Roy bother to research the strengths and weaknesses of the Lich during his lifelong quest to destroy Xykon?)

What? It's not like Roy could go down to the library, pick up the MM and look up the Lich Template.

Or maybe he could. Maybe that was his problem... he was looking for Lich under "L" and not in the appendices. Since we know they started the quest pre 3.5, then it's perfectly reasonable for Roy to assume the Lich is from a more obscure book, or, possibly, a homebrew monster.

That was just a random tangent, since, despite the intimate knowledge of the rules they have, I don't think they've got access to the sourcebooks.

[Marller]

Almost everything of consequence to the OOTS has been "do as I say or die." As you say yourself, "Why bother learning someone's name and getting attached if you have to kill them sooner or later?" I dunno, maybe, just maybe, there are alternatives that could be considered. IOW, it is not about failing in her duties or not that I object to, but rather the path she takes to succeed. Miko is rather tyrannical, leading by terror rather than example, as you'd normally expect a paladin to do. (Not that the OOTS has been intimidated.) If you consider this to be a valid point of view for anyone supposed to be a poster child for LG (or generally G), I disagree, and we don't have to discuss that anymore.

There never was a disagreement about that. Miko is supposed to be an annoying kind of LG which can be met in so many groups. The crux is that the char Miko got the character background to back up her behaviour, i believe. There simply is no other way to play that character. If the giant would hand out the charakter sheet, people would be hard pressed to play that character differently because of charakter traits like: "has grown up in a society which takes almost every word at face value".
Roy said it's the final descision, then it is the final descision as far as Miko is concerned. The thought that he might be swayed otherwise, even though he states it's the end of the rope and might still be argued with, never crosses her mind.
Roy could have easily said something like "We won't move a single inch until the attitude changes." Would Miko have attacked them? I doubt it, they would never have indicated that they are unwilling to go to the trial and she would negotiate within the boundaries of her codex.
There is a reason why Elan's dump stat is int, the story would be very boring with a very good diplomat (and less funny).

Other than, I don't know, they were having one right then? BUT, I do grant you that you might be right: Miko might be used to everyone always completely meaning everything they say, all the time, every detail, even when angry. I will say this, however: even in the short time she has spent with the OOTSers she should recognize that their social interactions don't follow the same rules and patterns as her own, unless she is socially inept, as Roy says.

Roy might not be certain of what Miko will and will not do at the moment, but merely that he considers it a possibility is telling. And regardless of why Miko allowed Durkon to heal them, I don't think compassion is at the top of the list.

When losing self control leads to you attacking and trying to kill people, even if they were convicted criminals (which the OOTSers aren't), I'd be hard pressed to find excuses for you. Seems pretty psychotic to me.

As i stated above, i think she saw no other option.

Nice story. I can understand it, although I might not agree with it. This is relevant to Miko always taking the "easy way" of beating the OOTSers into submission rather than considering any other option in what way, exactly?

Living in shame and dishonor being worse than dying. She might think she is doing them a favor. EDIT: I think that doesn't fit anymore but i still think it illustrates of how much a gap between the Orders and Mikos expectations exists.

This all is only speculation on my part only after the story is told we will know (or not depending on the Giant) what her charakter is.
But all specuation aside, i just love how the Order and Miko clash (or how they clash with each other). What's live without conflict?

[BurntOfferings]

Man oh man, I really hope tomorrow's comic goes up early. I mean, I always hope for that, because I'm an incurable addict, but now I really hope it goes up early.

Giant, please avoid any suspicious-looking heavy furniture! ;)

Wow, is the third OotS book ever going to be goooooood !

[Eriol]

Giant, please avoid any suspicious-looking heavy furniture! ;)

I second that sentiment.

Also avoid carrying large heavy objects of the Christmas season, such as trees (real or artificial). Your hands/wrists are too precious to all of us...

[Elethiomel]

I wasn't debating "polite" versus "friendly," I was debating "polite and friendly" versus "good." It seems like people would prefer to be around a completely evil person who would smile to your face before he stabs you in the back, than a stern person who does what's right.

I dont understand why Miko takes such flak when Belkar (who should be killed on the spot... it would be good for the universe) is considered an "okay guy."

That is so not what Belkar is like. He won't smile to your face and stab you in the back, he'll tell you he's going to harvest your kidneys and then do his best to accomplish that goal. To your face. There's no pretense about him.

He's not an "okay guy". Killing him might remove some evil from the universe. But killing him might also remove some potential for good. With 4 more Wis, he declared that all he wanted to do from this day forth was heal. Isn't that potential worth holding out some hope for?

[Dorni]

I think now is a good time to make a point that I have been sitting on for quite some time. This is also a much more difinitive example of the point.

In the OOTS world, remember that things can happen retroactively. To back down from the OOTS (whom have just issued an ultimatum) at this point is to agree with the arguments that they have against her. That means that she is admitting that her conduct is un-paladinly, and she would (either then or retroactively) lose her abilities.