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Thread: Order of the Stick: November II
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2005-12-01, 09:01 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
I'm glad the Giant articulated the whole differentiation between Lawful and Good. We have been having a long discussion here about Miko's alignment, and we have drawn a lot examples from real life.
I think that there is a big gap sometimes between Lawful and Good in real life. So does everyone else on the planet, that's why we argue so much about laws and governments. Here is a very short list of things that are lawful in the US that people regularly come to blows over whether they are "good" :
abortion
the death penalty
the power of cops to shoot suspects who flee
political lobbying
I'm not comparing Miko's actions to any of these. I'm just saying that when Miko does something that we personally think is very very wrong, it doesn't necessarily mean she is non-lawful, even according to the varying D & D interpretations of what non-lawful means in a multi-cultural, multi-religion world.
Personally I think that Miko is a big huge hypocrite. And rude. And intolerant. And so narrow minded that she makes the worst leader in the world. Unfortunately, no matter how much I want it to, the PH's doesn't say those are offenses worthy of stripping one of paladin-hood.
I guess she needs a big smack upside the head. It would be very satisfying if it were Shojo that served it up, so that she would have to accept it.
Unfortunately, just like in real life, it might be Shojo's society and leadership that creates people like Miko.
I guess I find these latest strips so satisfying because just like real life things are never quite as comfortably absolute as we would wish them to be. As others have said, Roy is a good person, but he seems to have been a tad harsh and inconsistent. Probably cause he was pushed to it.
Anyway, Kudos to the Giant for making us all care so much.
And also, a bazillion thanks Giant for the unseen battle write up, it was ALMOST as good as seeing it in a cartoon. (But not quite, so get cracking! JK).Avatar lovingly crafted by Ceika
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2005-12-01, 09:39 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by EriolMan this thing was full of outdated stuff.
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2005-12-01, 10:33 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by eof
I suppose that depends on where you look it up. If you google for it and pick the definition link, you are redirected to answers.com: "Psychopath: A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse." I think Miko qualifies for the "manifested in aggressive behavior without empathy" part. (And that's not only when dealing with the OOTSers--consider the missing tag from the mattress.)
She's not automatically self-serving, for one. She's not impulsive or unpredictable in her violence, and only employs it in accordance to the law as she understands it. And, going back over her dialog and actions from the Order's first encounter with her, it seems (to me anyway) that she shows a great deal of respect to the members of the Order, and that she actually does care about the rights and even the opinions of others. (I'm thinking in particular about the ogre-tracking incident with Belkar... let me find the comic, justasec... here it is :) http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gian...tscript?SK=213) People with antisocial personality disorder do not show this kind of respect for the law or for other people.
Using lethal force does not require your targets to be killed. Any attack that potentially (and especially if typically used for that purpose) can kill someone is lethal force. Miko brought several (most) of the OOTSers down into negative hit points, some she very nearly killed in the process. Had not Durkon been there to heal them, it is very likely that at least one OOTSer would have failed to stabilize on their own and died. That seems pretty lethal to me.
In the game (not that this comment about lethal force is restricted to the game) it's said outright that "non-lethal damage is subdual damage." Miko had every chance of dealing subdual damage (even with her weapons, under the rules, although not as efficiently as lethal damage), but didn't (in the scenario the Giant presented).
So, some questions arise: How much subdual damage does it take to knock someone out? How much subdual damage can Miko deal with her non-lethal attacks? How much time would it take to subdue the Order in comparison to taking them out without holding back?
Excellent. We at least agree that such actions would still be considered sociopathic, regardless of her cultural background.
I don't really want to get into the absolutism-vs-cultural relativism debate just now; I've had it too many times and am not in that mood today. Maybe later.
I just want to make the point that cultural context really does make a difference, and that people acting in accordance to that context, whether they are executing someone else or submitting willingly to death for not fulfilling a duty, are not necessarily themselves mentally or socially ill.
As for the fact that she didn't kill any of them, that is mostly due to a combination of luck (that none of her attacks happened to bring anyone down to -10 or below--unless you want to argue that she knew exactly how much damage to deal in order to just bring them to dying, rather than outright killing them, which I find doubtful) and that Durkon was around to heal the OOTSers (which she shouldn't have been able to count upon). AND, of course, she didn't kill them after they were defeated/had surrendered, which should come as no surprise--her goal was not, after all, to kill them. This does not change the fact that she used lethal force and that there was a fair chance of her killing at least one of them, and that she still had other options open to her, had she chosen to consider them.
Ok, I guess I'll bite: What is it that I should find familiar about it?
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2005-12-02, 12:10 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Elethiomel
Um...
GO BELKAR!
Edit:
Originally Posted by saraswatiAldas
Great occasions do not make heroes or cowards; they simply unveil them to the eyes of men. Silently and imperceptibly, as we wake or sleep, we grow strong or weak; and at last some crisis shows what we have become. -Brooke Foss Westcott
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2005-12-02, 12:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Is anyone else curious as to why Haley's EYES have been blindfolded?
If Haley was so annoying (and even, perhaps moreso, in gibberish she can be) why didn't Miko gag the mouth? And if she didn't want people to know where they're going, why only do it to Haley?
V's been gagged as well, but you always gag captured wizards, but I still suspect there is some joint conspiracy on their part.
The gags/blindfolds could just be because they were too annoying or there could be some darker purpose in mind. Maybe Haley's the only member of the party who is to be allowed to leave alive and Miko doesn't want her knowing the secret location of Lord Shojo's estate."You would not want to be staring that way at me." -Al Swearengen
"Crush your enemy, see them driven before you and to hear the lamentation of their women." -Conan
Let's harvest some kidneys!!
I'm not a magic fan but...:
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2005-12-02, 01:11 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
I'm sorry if this has been said before.
I'm wondering what would happen now. The comic seems limated so long as the OotS is chain their is little that can be done so I see a few possibilitys.
!.They get to Lord Sojo's withen the next three or four comics. Inbetween are some only joke strips and Maybe try and escape.
2.The Liniers show up, or Xecon, or Tyrant king guy, or just some random guys. Miko is forced to release them because she is screwed alone.
3.they escape and Miko seeks them again.
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2005-12-02, 01:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Of course, there's always the possibility that the narrative will shift away from the Order and we have a few strips feature Xykon and Co. or the new and improved Linear Guild. Or maybe we'll see Hilgya again?
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2005-12-02, 01:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Oooooh yes thats a large possibility.
Something completly random. When Belkar reapeared in the final panals I wish he had had Popcorn. That would have been awsome
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2005-12-02, 01:34 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Could you please take your predictions to the Sealed Predictions thread? The Giant doesn't exactly like them, after all(infering from the FAQ).
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2005-12-02, 01:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
I didn't think he would mind since both are sorta forgone conclution that either they make it to Sojos or escape.
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2005-12-02, 01:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Nightmarenny
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2005-12-02, 02:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Duraska
I'd sooner people be good than nice, but I'd rather spend time with nice people. It's rather understandable, I think, that people would even dislike someone good but extremely unpleasant. That's not really the same as valuing niceness over goodness.
Originally Posted by Sir_Banjo
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2005-12-02, 05:18 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by eof
One of the things that irritates me with Miko is that she is so extremely lawful. Don't get me wrong, I like lawful. But as with most things, when taken to extremes, it stops being a positive thing. Miko could easily be replaced with a set of rules: "if this happens, do that. If that happens, do this." As she says herself, there is no room for compromise, and evidently no room for interpretion, either: if something that matches a "rule" but wouldn't do so when taken in context, it always triggers the same response--in other words, context is discarded. She is 200% rigid and as lawful as she can be. She's effectively a robot, with no deducting capacity of her own. That she is good is a very minor detail and mostly a consequence of there being two components to alignment; she has to pick one on the good-evil axis. She could as easily have been LN or maybe even LE; since the good-evil axis is so insignificant, it would have very minor effect on her behaviour. (It would prevent her from being a paladin, though.)
It's not merely lawful alignment that becomes a negative thing when taken to extremes. As probably anyone who has had the dubious pleasure of playing in a game where there has been characters like that, the same holds for extremely good, chaotic or evil characters. The extremely good character might steal the party's equipment and money and sells it and gives the money to the poor, because they need it better. He might then even sell the party as slaves, because that is the only way he can get some more money to give to the poor. The extremely chaotic character actually rolls randomly for each of his actions every round. The extremely evil character is the mass murderer someone mentioned earlier, gleefully killing every person he meets.
Now, Belkar. Is he CE? Yes. Is he a worse person than Miko? Yes. But, he is neither as extremely chaotic nor as extremely evil as Miko is extremely lawful. He can be worked with to some extent, can be influenced by others and is not as disruptive to the party harmony as Miko is. Miko can only be worked with and influenced within the limits that her "programming" allows. Additionally, it has been suggested that Belkar's alignment is because of deep-seated emotional problems and a poor WIS. He's redeemable. Miko can also become a more productive member of a party, but she has a longer way to go.
Miko is an excellent character, but also one that is extremely difficult when in a party not entirely composed of others just like her. This probably triggers a visceral response in most people who have experienced such characters in a game with a specific goal to accomplish. For people who enjoy PvP style games and inter-party power struggles, not so much.
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2005-12-02, 06:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by SpaceCoyoteVega
It is also worth mentioning that if she had dealt subdual damage rather than lethal damage, I think the OOTSers would have used non-lethal means as well (with the likely exception of Belkar, but he never got to make a single attack anyway, so it doesn't matter), so the danger of Miko getting killed is up for discussion; it depends on what you think the OOTSers would have done in that situation. And she could have switched to lethal attacks later, if the situation warranted it. OR, she could even have used a combination of lethal and non-lethal attacks (in no particular order) to ensure that none of the OOTSers were in any chance of dying, if she felt the -4 penalty hindered her too much to use exclusively non-lethal attacks.
And she could have tried to argue with them some more.
She had options. She chose not to consider them.
Um, general statement about Miko. Sorry if that sounded like an attempt at snideness.
English is only my third language. Opportunities to actually speak english are rather rare, and so I have extended my vocabulary mostly by reading books. It tends to show when I write something myself.
Anyway, no offense taken, and thanks for the clarification.
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2005-12-02, 08:48 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
it's a shame no one had his ears plugged. You know, see no evil, speak no evil... where's hear no evil? ;D
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2005-12-02, 09:00 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by eof
It might be true that it wouldn't have made a big difference to how she acts toward the Order--depending on exactly what her orders are, and how a LE non-paladin Miko would rate her own ability to beat up the Order over refusing to sleep in the muddy ditch--but really. A Blackguard could act exactly like her? What? If Blackguards walk into burning inns to make sure no innocent people are still inside, those are some pretty nice Blackguards.
Edit: Actually, I just realized one way in which it could possibly be true that it wouldn't make a difference--if you're assuming she'd act exactly the same way regardless. In that case, it is true that it would make little difference; the farmers and inn evacuees presumably do not care whether they were helped by a paladin or a Blackguard, and some people could protest a Blackguard getting away with risking her own life to rescue innocent people with no hope of any kind of gain in sight as vigorously as other people can protest a paladin getting away with stabbing Elan.Orth Plays: Currently Baldur's Gate II
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2005-12-02, 09:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
[quote author=eof The extremely good character might steal the party's equipment and money and sells it and gives the money to the poor, because they need it better. He might then even sell the party as slaves, because that is the only way he can get some more money to give to the poor.
Miko is an excellent character, but also one that is extremely difficult when in a party not entirely composed of others just like her. This probably triggers a visceral response in most people who have experienced such characters in a game with a specific goal to accomplish. For people who enjoy PvP style games and inter-party power struggles, not so much.[/quote]
Eof, I would just quibble with one point here - I thought your second example of a 'extremely good' character selling the rest of the party to slavers, was rather far-fetched.
The only way I could imagine a paladin (seing as we're discussing Miho here) doing that would be with the consent of the rest of the party in a devious plan to wreck the slavers organisation from within.
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2005-12-02, 10:25 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Kish
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2005-12-02, 10:38 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Ashbless
Here's another example: say we have an extremely good character who thinks that afterlife is paradise. Let's even assume he is completely right. As a good person, he then kills every person he meets that suffer from any form of hardship, because he can't watch them suffer to any degree, and he knows that once killed, they will be all better off. A basically good intention (wanting people to be better off) taken to an absurd extreme, with absurd (and, somewhat depending on your view, no longer good) consequences.
The only way I could imagine a paladin (seing as we're discussing Miho here) doing that would be with the consent of the rest of the party in a devious plan to wreck the slavers organisation from within.
What do you suppose would happen if slavery was state-sponsored, lawful and regulated (including, say, listing the exact rights of a slave, and those rights were "decent," as far as slavery goes); how do you suppose Miko would react to that?
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2005-12-02, 10:49 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by The Giant
This doesn't change anything of what you said, of course. It just provides a rationale for some of the assumptions people made.
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2005-12-02, 11:32 AM (ISO 8601)DeathQuakerGuest in the Playground
Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by eof
I get the sense that Miko's priorities as far as what rules she follows go 1) Obey Lord Shojo in everything, and Lord Shojo's rules are paramount; 2) Obey Paladin code of conduct to the letter, 3) Obey the local laws (including those of mattress tag removal) where they are not tyrranical. She is of course also obsessed with following the D&D rules to the letter ;) ("They don't even HAVE rules for sleep, you know..."). So where local laws would conflict with her mission assigned her by Lord Shojo, Lord Shojo's order would take precedence. Which I think works fine. After all, no lawful character is expected to follow all laws if two laws they follow conflict; going with what they were raised in/are meant to serve makes sense.
But now, am I making sense? :) That's another question entirely....
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2005-12-02, 11:51 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Originally Posted by Sir_Banjo
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2005-12-02, 12:27 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Oy. People can type a lot about alignment.
I was just going to say, it looks like Belkar got head kicked by a horsie!
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2005-12-02, 12:29 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
The Fairy Modmother:
Offical Announcement about the monthly comics thread: Discussion about the current OotS strip will now be shuffled off, not into a thread that is started every two weeks, but to one that is started with each new strip. The monthly comics threads were getting to be to large and be too intimidating and too clutterd. So use the new each comic threads for anything that you would have previously used the monthly thread for.
Thank you
~Comics modFounding member of the Kaylee club. If your relationship with your batteries has been going on for almost a year now, you can join too! Strawberries and Big City Doctors for all!
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2012-10-15, 09:25 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
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2012-10-15, 10:50 PM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
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2012-10-16, 02:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
I remember somebody necroed an idea from the first 50 strips or so, but not on the original thread. This is fascinating
There must be some sense of order - personal, political or dramatic - and if no one else is going to bring it to this world, I will.
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2012-10-16, 02:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
What the heck I don't even?
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2012-10-16, 04:24 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Do I contradict myself?
Very well then I contradict myself. I am large, I contain multitudes. (W.Whitman)
Things that increase my self esteem:
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2012-10-16, 08:15 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: Order of the Stick: November II
Consequences vs. punishment as I see it. Technically, punishment is a "consequence" of breaking the law in exactly the same way as getting burned is a "consequence" of touching a stove, in that, provided the laws are clearly laid out and fairly enforced (which is sort of a prerequesite for discussion on this issue) then you are choosing to risk being thrown into jail if you steal, or be executed if you murder, jsut as you choose to be burnt if you touch hot iron.