Order of the Stick: November II

[saraswati]

I'm glad the Giant articulated the whole differentiation between Lawful and Good. We have been having a long discussion here about Miko's alignment, and we have drawn a lot examples from real life.

I think that there is a big gap sometimes between Lawful and Good in real life. So does everyone else on the planet, that's why we argue so much about laws and governments. Here is a very short list of things that are lawful in the US that people regularly come to blows over whether they are "good" :

abortion
the death penalty
the power of cops to shoot suspects who flee
political lobbying

I'm not comparing Miko's actions to any of these. I'm just saying that when Miko does something that we personally think is very very wrong, it doesn't necessarily mean she is non-lawful, even according to the varying D & D interpretations of what non-lawful means in a multi-cultural, multi-religion world.

Personally I think that Miko is a big huge hypocrite. And rude. And intolerant. And so narrow minded that she makes the worst leader in the world. Unfortunately, no matter how much I want it to, the PH's doesn't say those are offenses worthy of stripping one of paladin-hood.

I guess she needs a big smack upside the head. It would be very satisfying if it were Shojo that served it up, so that she would have to accept it.

Unfortunately, just like in real life, it might be Shojo's society and leadership that creates people like Miko.

I guess I find these latest strips so satisfying because just like real life things are never quite as comfortably absolute as we would wish them to be. As others have said, Roy is a good person, but he seems to have been a tad harsh and inconsistent. Probably cause he was pushed to it.

Anyway, Kudos to the Giant for making us all care so much.

And also, a bazillion thanks Giant for the unseen battle write up, it was ALMOST as good as seeing it in a cartoon. (But not quite, so get cracking! JK).

[NEO|Phyte]

Personally I'm not much for your argument, but this paragraph had me thinking of a certain other Paladin that the Order could conceivably meet in the future, who is more "Good" than "lawful" (though he is that too, but not like Miko), and who also would understand Roy quite well (despite likely never having met him).

OTOOPCs people know who I mean...

Aw man, not again!

[SpaceCoyoteVega]

You are quite right of course, psychotic and psychopathic are different things. My apologies to you.

No offense taken. The words are way too close to one another anyway.

I suppose that depends on where you look it up. If you google for it and pick the definition link, you are redirected to answers.com: "Psychopath: A person with an antisocial personality disorder, manifested in aggressive, perverted, criminal, or amoral behavior without empathy or remorse." I think Miko qualifies for the "manifested in aggressive behavior without empathy" part. (And that's not only when dealing with the OOTSers--consider the missing tag from the mattress.)

I'm using the medical definition of sociopathy here. I've had personal experience with individuals with antisocial personality disorder, and judging from that and from what I've read about the psychological condition, I don't think Miko has it.

She's not automatically self-serving, for one. She's not impulsive or unpredictable in her violence, and only employs it in accordance to the law as she understands it. And, going back over her dialog and actions from the Order's first encounter with her, it seems (to me anyway) that she shows a great deal of respect to the members of the Order, and that she actually does care about the rights and even the opinions of others. (I'm thinking in particular about the ogre-tracking incident with Belkar... let me find the comic, justasec... here it is :) http://www.giantitp.com/cgi-bin/Gian...tscript?SK=213) People with antisocial personality disorder do not show this kind of respect for the law or for other people.

Using lethal force does not require your targets to be killed. Any attack that potentially (and especially if typically used for that purpose) can kill someone is lethal force. Miko brought several (most) of the OOTSers down into negative hit points, some she very nearly killed in the process. Had not Durkon been there to heal them, it is very likely that at least one OOTSer would have failed to stabilize on their own and died. That seems pretty lethal to me.

You're right. I had the wrong definition. My bad.

In the game (not that this comment about lethal force is restricted to the game) it's said outright that "non-lethal damage is subdual damage." Miko had every chance of dealing subdual damage (even with her weapons, under the rules, although not as efficiently as lethal damage), but didn't (in the scenario the Giant presented).

Maybe. But remember, she is in real danger of being killed herself. In a combat situation what one usually wants to do is to make the people who are trying to kill you stop doing this as quickly as possible.

So, some questions arise: How much subdual damage does it take to knock someone out? How much subdual damage can Miko deal with her non-lethal attacks? How much time would it take to subdue the Order in comparison to taking them out without holding back?

Excellent. We at least agree that such actions would still be considered sociopathic, regardless of her cultural background.

With one clarification- that the society itself is sociopathic, if this is possible; and that individuals and actions committed according the structure of the society wouldn't necessarily be called sociopathic.

I don't really want to get into the absolutism-vs-cultural relativism debate just now; I've had it too many times and am not in that mood today. Maybe later.

I just want to make the point that cultural context really does make a difference, and that people acting in accordance to that context, whether they are executing someone else or submitting willingly to death for not fulfilling a duty, are not necessarily themselves mentally or socially ill.

As for the fact that she didn't kill any of them, that is mostly due to a combination of luck (that none of her attacks happened to bring anyone down to -10 or below--unless you want to argue that she knew exactly how much damage to deal in order to just bring them to dying, rather than outright killing them, which I find doubtful) and that Durkon was around to heal the OOTSers (which she shouldn't have been able to count upon). AND, of course, she didn't kill them after they were defeated/had surrendered, which should come as no surprise--her goal was not, after all, to kill them. This does not change the fact that she used lethal force and that there was a fair chance of her killing at least one of them, and that she still had other options open to her, had she chosen to consider them.

Given- except that no one said that she didn't heal any of the Order after combat was finished. Flimsy argument, I know, but I think it would have been in character for her to do so.

Ok, I guess I'll bite: What is it that I should find familiar about it?

Um, general statement about Miko. Sorry if that sounded like an attempt at snideness.

[Draedan]

That is so not what Belkar is like. He won't smile to your face and stab you in the back, he'll tell you he's going to harvest your kidneys and then do his best to accomplish that goal. To your face. There's no pretense about him.

He's not an "okay guy". Killing him might remove some evil from the universe. But killing him might also remove some potential for good. With 4 more Wis, he declared that all he wanted to do from this day forth was heal. Isn't that potential worth holding out some hope for?

Hitler wanted to be a painter. We all know how well THAT went...

Um...

GO BELKAR!

Edit:

Unfortunately, just like in real life, it might be Shojo's society and leadership that creates people like Miko.

Im hoping for a lazy/goofy Lord Shojo, myself. I think it would be incredibly funny if Shojo forgot he had even sent Miko in the first place.

[Sir_Banjo]

Is anyone else curious as to why Haley's EYES have been blindfolded?

If Haley was so annoying (and even, perhaps moreso, in gibberish she can be) why didn't Miko gag the mouth? And if she didn't want people to know where they're going, why only do it to Haley?

V's been gagged as well, but you always gag captured wizards, but I still suspect there is some joint conspiracy on their part.

The gags/blindfolds could just be because they were too annoying or there could be some darker purpose in mind. Maybe Haley's the only member of the party who is to be allowed to leave alive and Miko doesn't want her knowing the secret location of Lord Shojo's estate.

[Nightmarenny]

I'm sorry if this has been said before.


I'm wondering what would happen now. The comic seems limated so long as the OotS is chain their is little that can be done so I see a few possibilitys.


!.They get to Lord Sojo's withen the next three or four comics. Inbetween are some only joke strips and Maybe try and escape.

2.The Liniers show up, or Xecon, or Tyrant king guy, or just some random guys. Miko is forced to release them because she is screwed alone.

3.they escape and Miko seeks them again.

[Grey Watcher]

Of course, there's always the possibility that the narrative will shift away from the Order and we have a few strips feature Xykon and Co. or the new and improved Linear Guild. Or maybe we'll see Hilgya again?

[Nightmarenny]

Oooooh yes thats a large possibility.

Something completly random. When Belkar reapeared in the final panals I wish he had had Popcorn. That would have been awsome

[Winged One]

Could you please take your predictions to the Sealed Predictions thread? The Giant doesn't exactly like them, after all(infering from the FAQ).

[Nightmarenny]

I didn't think he would mind since both are sorta forgone conclution that either they make it to Sojos or escape.

[Duskrider_Moogle]

Something completly random. When Belkar reapeared in the final panals I wish he had had Popcorn. That would have been awsome

Indeed.

[Devils_Advocate]

I wasn't debating "polite" versus "friendly," I was debating "polite and friendly" versus "good." It seems like people would prefer to be around a completely evil person who would smile to your face before he stabs you in the back, than a stern person who does what's right.

I dont understand why Miko takes such flak when Belkar (who should be killed on the spot... it would be good for the universe) is considered an "okay guy."

If they were real people, and I had to choose which one of them would die, I would definitely pick Belkar. No question. In the grand scheme of things, Miko is probably a positive force, and the world might well be better off without Belkar. If I had to pick which one of them to hang out with? Definitely Belkar, so long as I didn't think he would try to kill me. Maybe even if I wasn't sure he wouldn't kill me. Miko strikes me as that unpleasant to be around.

I'd sooner people be good than nice, but I'd rather spend time with nice people. It's rather understandable, I think, that people would even dislike someone good but extremely unpleasant. That's not really the same as valuing niceness over goodness.

Is anyone else curious as to why Haley's EYES have been blindfolded?

Probably to make it more difficult for her to escape. (A few other people mentioned this.) Miko seems to have inferred that that's the sort of thing Haley might be good at. ("Criminal.")

[eof]

Belkar isn't an "okay guy." He's CE. That pretty much rules out any chances of considering him "okay." BUT, Belkar isn't a paladin, either. Miko is. As a paladin, she's "supposed" to be an example for others to aspire to, a champion for good in particular, and law as well. Miko doesn't do too well on the "champion of good" part. Belkar would do even worse, but then, he's not LG and not a paladin.

Is Belkar a less decent individual? Certainly. But he is CE, he does what is expected of him. Miko is LG but possibly just as devoid of empathy as Belkar, and as LG that is a highly questionable attitude.

In the context of what their characters "should be," Miko fails to a far greater extent than Belkar. Combine this failure on her part with the "I'm a paladin and thus always right" attitude paladins tend to dsplay from time to time, and you've got something that will grate on most people's nerves.

Ok, I'm responding to myself. Having given it some thought (and some sleep), I think I want to expand upon what I said above. I still think it applies, but there might be more to it.

One of the things that irritates me with Miko is that she is so extremely lawful. Don't get me wrong, I like lawful. But as with most things, when taken to extremes, it stops being a positive thing. Miko could easily be replaced with a set of rules: "if this happens, do that. If that happens, do this." As she says herself, there is no room for compromise, and evidently no room for interpretion, either: if something that matches a "rule" but wouldn't do so when taken in context, it always triggers the same response--in other words, context is discarded. She is 200% rigid and as lawful as she can be. She's effectively a robot, with no deducting capacity of her own. That she is good is a very minor detail and mostly a consequence of there being two components to alignment; she has to pick one on the good-evil axis. She could as easily have been LN or maybe even LE; since the good-evil axis is so insignificant, it would have very minor effect on her behaviour. (It would prevent her from being a paladin, though.)

It's not merely lawful alignment that becomes a negative thing when taken to extremes. As probably anyone who has had the dubious pleasure of playing in a game where there has been characters like that, the same holds for extremely good, chaotic or evil characters. The extremely good character might steal the party's equipment and money and sells it and gives the money to the poor, because they need it better. He might then even sell the party as slaves, because that is the only way he can get some more money to give to the poor. The extremely chaotic character actually rolls randomly for each of his actions every round. The extremely evil character is the mass murderer someone mentioned earlier, gleefully killing every person he meets.

Now, Belkar. Is he CE? Yes. Is he a worse person than Miko? Yes. But, he is neither as extremely chaotic nor as extremely evil as Miko is extremely lawful. He can be worked with to some extent, can be influenced by others and is not as disruptive to the party harmony as Miko is. Miko can only be worked with and influenced within the limits that her "programming" allows. Additionally, it has been suggested that Belkar's alignment is because of deep-seated emotional problems and a poor WIS. He's redeemable. Miko can also become a more productive member of a party, but she has a longer way to go.

Miko is an excellent character, but also one that is extremely difficult when in a party not entirely composed of others just like her. This probably triggers a visceral response in most people who have experienced such characters in a game with a specific goal to accomplish. For people who enjoy PvP style games and inter-party power struggles, not so much.

[eof]

(I said: ) Miko had every chance of dealing subdual damage.

Maybe. But remember, she is in real danger of being killed herself. In a combat situation what one usually wants to do is to make the people who are trying to kill you stop doing this as quickly as possible.

So, some questions arise: How much subdual damage does it take to knock someone out? How much subdual damage can Miko deal with her non-lethal attacks? How much time would it take to subdue the Order in comparison to taking them out without holding back?

In the game? Just as much as it takes to take someone down to negative hit points. In Miko's case, it would have meant taking -4 to hit; the amount of damage dealt would have been the same. She didn't seem to have any problem hitting even the best armored of the OOTSers, so it is difficult to say how much the -4 penalty would have prolonged the battle, if at all.

It is also worth mentioning that if she had dealt subdual damage rather than lethal damage, I think the OOTSers would have used non-lethal means as well (with the likely exception of Belkar, but he never got to make a single attack anyway, so it doesn't matter), so the danger of Miko getting killed is up for discussion; it depends on what you think the OOTSers would have done in that situation. And she could have switched to lethal attacks later, if the situation warranted it. OR, she could even have used a combination of lethal and non-lethal attacks (in no particular order) to ensure that none of the OOTSers were in any chance of dying, if she felt the -4 penalty hindered her too much to use exclusively non-lethal attacks.

And she could have tried to argue with them some more.

She had options. She chose not to consider them.

Um, general statement about Miko. Sorry if that sounded like an attempt at snideness.

To be honest, it did sound a bit like that to me.

English is only my third language. Opportunities to actually speak english are rather rare, and so I have extended my vocabulary mostly by reading books. It tends to show when I write something myself.

Anyway, no offense taken, and thanks for the clarification.

[ref]

it's a shame no one had his ears plugged. You know, see no evil, speak no evil... where's hear no evil? ;D

[Kish]

That she is good is a very minor detail and mostly a consequence of there being two components to alignment; she has to pick one on the good-evil axis. She could as easily have been LN or maybe even LE; since the good-evil axis is so insignificant, it would have very minor effect on her behaviour. (It would prevent her from being a paladin, though.)

I would venture that it makes a rather big difference to the farmer who got kidnapped by the ogres--a LN Miko would have told his wife, "That's too bad. We're in a hurry," and a LE Miko would just have said, "Out of my way, insignificant scum."

It might be true that it wouldn't have made a big difference to how she acts toward the Order--depending on exactly what her orders are, and how a LE non-paladin Miko would rate her own ability to beat up the Order over refusing to sleep in the muddy ditch--but really. A Blackguard could act exactly like her? What? If Blackguards walk into burning inns to make sure no innocent people are still inside, those are some pretty nice Blackguards.

Edit: Actually, I just realized one way in which it could possibly be true that it wouldn't make a difference--if you're assuming she'd act exactly the same way regardless. In that case, it is true that it would make little difference; the farmers and inn evacuees presumably do not care whether they were helped by a paladin or a Blackguard, and some people could protest a Blackguard getting away with risking her own life to rescue innocent people with no hope of any kind of gain in sight as vigorously as other people can protest a paladin getting away with stabbing Elan.

[Ashbless]

[quote author=eof The extremely good character might steal the party's equipment and money and sells it and gives the money to the poor, because they need it better. He might then even sell the party as slaves, because that is the only way he can get some more money to give to the poor.

Miko is an excellent character, but also one that is extremely difficult when in a party not entirely composed of others just like her. This probably triggers a visceral response in most people who have experienced such characters in a game with a specific goal to accomplish. For people who enjoy PvP style games and inter-party power struggles, not so much.[/quote]

Eof, I would just quibble with one point here - I thought your second example of a 'extremely good' character selling the rest of the party to slavers, was rather far-fetched.
The only way I could imagine a paladin (seing as we're discussing Miho here) doing that would be with the consent of the rest of the party in a devious plan to wreck the slavers organisation from within.

[eof]

Edit: Actually, I just realized one way in which it could possibly be true that it wouldn't make a difference--if you're assuming she'd act exactly the same way regardless. In that case, it is true that it would make little difference; the farmers and inn evacuees presumably do not care whether they were helped by a paladin or a Blackguard, and some people could protest a Blackguard getting away with risking her own life to rescue innocent people with no hope of any kind of gain in sight as vigorously as other people can protest a paladin getting away with stabbing Elan.

That's pretty close to what I'm getting at. Or rather, the possibility of it. Extremely lawful characters might, for instance, be obligated to help those in need, depending on the laws they follow. In this case, it doesn't matter if they are LG, LN or LE--they would do it regardless on virtue of being extremely lawful. Some of them might not understand why they do it, or even on some level dislike having to do it, but they still would do it. I'm not saying that this is definately the case with Miko, but based on what we have seen (a lack of "concern for the dignity of sentinent beings," as Roy said) I wouldn't discount the possibility, either.

[eof]

Eof, I would just quibble with one point here - I thought your second example of a 'extremely good' character selling the rest of the party to slavers, was rather far-fetched.

Of course. That was the entire idea; any alignment, when taken to absurd extremes, takes on absurd forms of expression--in some cases, absurd enough that the alignment doesn't apply anymore.

Here's another example: say we have an extremely good character who thinks that afterlife is paradise. Let's even assume he is completely right. As a good person, he then kills every person he meets that suffer from any form of hardship, because he can't watch them suffer to any degree, and he knows that once killed, they will be all better off. A basically good intention (wanting people to be better off) taken to an absurd extreme, with absurd (and, somewhat depending on your view, no longer good) consequences.

The only way I could imagine a paladin (seing as we're discussing Miho here) doing that would be with the consent of the rest of the party in a devious plan to wreck the slavers organisation from within.

Ah, but Miko is extremely lawful, not extremely good.

What do you suppose would happen if slavery was state-sponsored, lawful and regulated (including, say, listing the exact rights of a slave, and those rights were "decent," as far as slavery goes); how do you suppose Miko would react to that?

[eof]

It's also interesting that everyone thinks Miko captured the OOTSers in another nation, rather than the lawless region just outside Wooden Forest,

It's been a while since you made this post, but I just realized one thing that sort of implies that they aren't in the lawless region right now: the presence of lawyers (here as well). For the court order (or restraining order) to have any meaning, a legal system must be in place. (Or they could just bluff, of course, but I think Miko would see through that. And Belkar just doesn't care.)

This doesn't change anything of what you said, of course. It just provides a rationale for some of the assumptions people made.

[DeathQuaker]

It's been a while since you made this post, but I just realized one thing that sort of implies that they aren't in the lawless region right now: the presence of lawyers (here as well). For the court order (or restraining order) to have any meaning, a legal system must be in place. (Or they could just bluff, of course, but I think Miko would see through that. And Belkar just doesn't care.)

This doesn't change anything of what you said, of course. It just provides a rationale for some of the assumptions people made.

Well, except that I think the real reason the lawyers exist is because they're funny. ("Spooooooky funny!") :)

I get the sense that Miko's priorities as far as what rules she follows go 1) Obey Lord Shojo in everything, and Lord Shojo's rules are paramount; 2) Obey Paladin code of conduct to the letter, 3) Obey the local laws (including those of mattress tag removal) where they are not tyrranical. She is of course also obsessed with following the D&D rules to the letter ;) ("They don't even HAVE rules for sleep, you know..."). So where local laws would conflict with her mission assigned her by Lord Shojo, Lord Shojo's order would take precedence. Which I think works fine. After all, no lawful character is expected to follow all laws if two laws they follow conflict; going with what they were raised in/are meant to serve makes sense.

But now, am I making sense? :) That's another question entirely....

[BurntOfferings]

Is anyone else curious as to why Haley's EYES have been blindfolded?

Other people have already mentioned that blindness imposes a penalty on Dex-based skills (like Escape Artist and Open Lock). In addition, it would prevent her from making a head-butt sneak attack. Her target would have total concealment, and you can't sneak attack someone with concealment.

[Aerysil1]

Oy. People can type a lot about alignment.

I was just going to say, it looks like Belkar got head kicked by a horsie!

[Lilly]

The Fairy Modmother:

Offical Announcement about the monthly comics thread: Discussion about the current OotS strip will now be shuffled off, not into a thread that is started every two weeks, but to one that is started with each new strip. The monthly comics threads were getting to be to large and be too intimidating and too clutterd. So use the new each comic threads for anything that you would have previously used the monthly thread for.

Thank you
~Comics mod

[ReaderAt2046]

Actually, this is what bugs me most about Miko--not so much that the character has her annoying flaws (which have been discussed to death on the forums), or that her character is a stereotype for how the class is often played (the same could be said of Haley's greed--stealing from her own party...). Rather, it's that the people who play paladins like Miko have caused some people to think that that's the only way a paladin can be played. The fact that Miko reinforces this is what bothers me most about her, rather than her interaction with the party per se.

I think Miko was deliberately designed to counter such stereotypes by portraying exactly what a Lawful just-barely-technically-Good Stupid character would look like in real life. Then we have Hinjo, Lien, and especially O-chul showing what a paladin should look like.

[Mutant Sheep]

I think Miko was deliberately designed to counter such stereotypes by portraying exactly what a Lawful just-barely-technically-Good Stupid character would look like in real life. Then we have Hinjo, Lien, and especially O-chul showing what a paladin should look like.

This is...the longest case of necromancy Ihave ever seen. This is a seven year od thread, how do you even FIND THIS? I thought pre2006 threads got purged and archived never to be seen in a decent format again.

[Mike Havran]

I remember somebody necroed an idea from the first 50 strips or so, but not on the original thread. This is fascinating

[The Zoat]

What the heck I don't even?

[Killer Angel]

I think Miko was deliberately designed to counter such stereotypes by portraying exactly what a Lawful just-barely-technically-Good Stupid character would look like in real life. Then we have Hinjo, Lien, and especially O-chul showing what a paladin should look like.

Just a suggestion: if you want to start a debate about Miko and paladin's stereotypes, and you find Reptile's post particularly interesting, it would be better to start a new topic, linking to the old thread/post.

[ReaderAt2046]

I think we'll just have to agree to disagree about lawfulness. Ultimately, by and large, I do obey the law, because I decide for myself to do so.

But to clarify, re: consequences vs. punishment, this is how I see it:

When some "authority" figure says that you'll face the consequences, I think they really mean "punishment," they just say the former so as to not take responsibility for the fact that they're inflicting their will upon another human, and could possible be wrong about it. So they pretend wrongfully to be like a dispassionate force of nature, like a flood or a hot stove.

Of course, I realize that people may feel differently on this, so I will agree to disagree on this as well.

Consequences vs. punishment as I see it. Technically, punishment is a "consequence" of breaking the law in exactly the same way as getting burned is a "consequence" of touching a stove, in that, provided the laws are clearly laid out and fairly enforced (which is sort of a prerequesite for discussion on this issue) then you are choosing to risk being thrown into jail if you steal, or be executed if you murder, jsut as you choose to be burnt if you touch hot iron.