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    Ettin in the Playground
     
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    Default You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Offtopic Note: I could really use a table, should ye be kind enough to provide one. Please?

    Whirlwind Bastion
    "On my honor, Seeress, you will not be touched."
    Kaylee Laythe, a Whirlwind Bastion, shortly before escorting Seeress Balai through the Battle of Kalak

    Defenders. Martyrs. Bodyguards, protectors, knights - all have laid their lives down to serve something greater than themselves. Some of the toughest people in the world belong to these professions, but none of them hold a candle to the Order of the Whirlwind Bastion. They embody protection, defense, discipline, and the iron will to carry a duty out past the grave. Through sheer force of will and physical fortitude, they can force their bodies to take blows that would kill lesser men three times over and keep working at perfect functionality.

    Fighters, paladins, knights, and monks are the most common Whirlwind Bastions. All other classes lack either the defense, the protection, or the dedication to pursue this path.

    Requirements
    In order to qualify as a Whirlwind Bastion, your character must meet the following prerequisites
    Saves: Base Fortitude save +8, Base Reflex save +4, Base Will save +4
    Skills: Concentration 8 ranks or Autoypnosis 8 ranks, Craft (Armorsmithing) 8 ranks.
    Feats: Endurance, Diehard, Improved Initative, Danger Sense, Shield Proficiency
    Special: The character must travel to the Monestary of the Whirling Shield and pass the Test of Ten Thousand Blows. Alternatively, she may travel to the Monestary of the Whirling Shield and challenge the High Bastion there to a duel to the death and succeed.

    Hit Die: 1d12
    B.A.B.: Good
    Fortitude: Good
    Reflex: Poor
    Will: Poor

    {table=head]Level|Base Attack<br>Bonus|Fort Save|Ref Save|Will Save|Special

    1st|
    +1
    |
    +2
    |
    +0
    |
    +2
    | Whirling Shield, Tough as Nails

    2nd|
    +2
    |
    +3
    |
    +0
    |
    +3
    |Ignore the Pain

    3rd|
    +3
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Uncanny Dodge

    4th|
    +4
    |
    +4
    |
    +1
    |
    +4
    |Shield Specialization

    5th|
    +5
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |Shield the Worthy

    6th|
    +6
    |
    +5
    |
    +2
    |
    +5
    |No Martyrs (-20)

    7th|
    +7
    |
    +6
    |
    +2
    |
    +6
    |Trust Your Armor

    8th|
    +8
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Improved Uncanny Dodge

    9th|
    +9
    |
    +6
    |
    +3
    |
    +6
    |Whipping Boy

    10th|
    +10
    |
    +7
    |
    +3
    |
    +7
    |Vengence, No Martyrs (-40) [/table]

    Class Skills: Autohypnosis (Wis), Concentration (Con), Climb (Str), Craft (Int), Handle Animal (Cha), Intimidate (Cha), Jump (Str), Ride (Dex), Swim (Str)

    Skill Points per Level: 2+Intelligence Modifier

    Weapon and Armor Proficiencies: The Whirling Bastion does not gain proficiency in any weapons or armors. Unless otherwise stated, the Whirling Bastion cannot use her class abilities in any armor lighter or heavier than Medium and with a shield any heavier or lighter than Heavy.

    Tough as Nails: The Whirling Bastion rigerously conditions herself, gaining +2 H.P. per level in this class.

    Whirling Shield (Ex): The Whirling Bastion is ever ready, her shield arm moving before her mind can even register a threat. Her Shield A.C. is applied against all attacks, including Touch attacks, unless she is paralyzed or otherwise helpless.

    Ignore the Pain (Ex): "Pain is the sensation of fear leaving the body," goes one of the creedos of the Whirling Bastion, and at second level, she attains this. The Whirling Bastion becomes immune to pain and fear effects. This ability can be used in any armor, with any shield.

    Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at level three, as the barbarian class feature.

    Shield Specialization: At level four, the Whirling Bastion recieves Shield Specialization (Heavy) as a bonus feat, regardless of whether or not she meets the prerequisites.

    Shield the Worthy (Ex): The Whirling Bastion is a bodyguard, first and foremost, and starting at level five she perfects the craft to an art form. Whenever an ally within five feet of the Whirling Bastion would be damaged by a melee or ranged attack, the Whirling Bastion may enter their square as an immediate action and take the blow for them. If she chooses to do so, she takes any other blows that would have hit that ally until the beginning of her next turn.

    No Martyrs (Ex): "No Martyrs," is another motto of the Whirling Bastions, meaning that they will never die in the line of duty. Starting at sixth level, they are dead a -20, not -10. At tenth level, this changes to -40. They may continue to move and act without penalty until death.

    Trust Your Armor (Ex): The Whirling Bastion takes her hits with grace, presenting chains, pauldrons, helms, and shields to take her blows for her. Starting at level seven, she gains DR equal to her Armor bonus to AC plus her Shield bonus to AC, divided by two, rounded up (so a Whirling Bastion in Chainmail with a Heavy Steel Shield has DR 4/-). This ability cannot be used if the Whirling Bastion is helpless.

    Improved Uncanny Dodge (Ex): Starting at eighth level, as the Barbarian class feature.

    Whipping Boy (Ex): At this point in her career, the Whirling Bastion has developed a slight tendency to masochism, entering every battle smiling a little on the inside at the prospect of taking blow after blow. Stating at ninth level, for every ten points she is below her full normal health, she gains a +1 on all attack and damage rolls. Additionally, the Whirling Bastion becomes immune to death effects.

    Vengence (Su): The last teaching of the Whirling Martyr is one of energy and its motion. If you can turn your opponent's blows back upon them, then the fight can be won. The Whirling Bastion takes this to an extreme and literal degree, becoming capable of inflicting mirrors of the blows she has taken upon her foes. Starting at tenth level, she may choose to forgo rolling her own damage for attacks, instead dealing damage equal to the amount of damage she has taken in the last round to any foes she strikes. Note that this means she does not get any bonus damage from Strength, magical weapons, or her Whipping Boy ability (or any other damage modifiers), nor does this ability copy magical effects such as a Nine Lives Stealer.
    Last edited by Lord_Gareth; 2008-01-11 at 05:28 PM.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Lady Tialait's Avatar

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Try here

    As far as I can see, this is pretty nice. The 2D8 HD is a bit odd, and the other abilites basically scream "You can kill me...but good luck" snece you have to be Melee to get a good amount of use out of this class i'm not likeing it...but then again...melee and this little poor druid are not good friends...I would give you the Thumbs up..but right now i'm a puppie..so I give you two barks up.
    Last edited by Lady Tialait; 2007-12-09 at 02:09 PM.


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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    You can find all the tables in a sticky thread.
    Steampunk GwynSkull by DR. BATH

    "Live to the point of tears"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyntonian View Post
    What. Is. This. Madness.

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Allow me to rephrase - I have read the sticky, and my brain does this, "Umm...yeah...you're screwed, buddy." I dunno why, I just don't get it T_T


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Gwyn chan 'r Gwyll's Avatar

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    First thing first. Copy and Paste the Template. It should be in the spoiler in the spoiler. Than, you fill in all the blanks. That's really all.

    I didn't get it either, at first.
    Steampunk GwynSkull by DR. BATH

    "Live to the point of tears"
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    Quote Originally Posted by Wyntonian View Post
    What. Is. This. Madness.

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    find the table you need on there and Copy Paste it..yay you have a table!


    "I laugh at life, it's antics make for me a giddy game. Where only foolish fellows take themselves with solemn aim.
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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    {table] level|bab|fort|ref|will|special
    1|1|2|0|0|Stalwart Contempt, Whirling Shield
    2|2|3|0|0|Ignore the Pain
    3|3|3|1|1|Uncanny Dodge
    4|4|4|1|1|It's Less Than a Flesh Wound
    5|5|4|1|1|Shield the Worthy
    6|6/1|5|2|2|No Martyrs
    7|7/2|5|2|2|Trust Your Armor
    8|8/3|6|2|2|Improved Uncanny Dodge
    9|9/4|6|3|3|Whipping Boy
    10|10/5|7|3|3|Vengence{table]

    take out the space between {table] and level at the beginning for your table.

    (o snap, i seem to have been beaten to makin a table for you xP )
    Last edited by ronnyfire; 2007-12-09 at 02:40 PM.

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Just made it ^_^

    Alright, everything's peachy - critiques wanted and appretiated. And O Furry Puppy One, I thank ye for your review.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    The 2d8 thing seems to be a problem, mainly since there are alot of abilities that effect based on hitdice, so does this mean a level 10 fighter/level 5 WB would count as having 20 hitdice?

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Hmm. Technically, as a unique (so far) situation, I get to make up the ruels for this. Excuse me while I add, "It counts as one hit die per level" right next to, "You only add your con modifier ONCE, Captain Munchkin".


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    This would make for a great villain, especially if he showed up while the party was still low level and he just let them beat on him before backhanding them back to town.
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    DM: "Alright, you've successfully hidden in a tree without the pack of Wyld-tainted tigers noticing you. What now?"
    Me: "Oh! I know! I'll use Sense Riding Technique to use one as a spy, so I can see if someone is controlling them at all."
    DM:"Alright. Did you have a specific tiger in mind?"
    Me: "I'll take the most normal looking one near me."
    DM: "Cool! You see nothing. This tiger has had its brain replaced with a brain-shaped cantaloupe."

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    What sort of entry build are you expecting for this? It looks like you're planning on prospective Whirling Bastions to have multiclassed or presclassed already in order to double up on some of those +2 save first levels- a straight-classed Fighter wouldn't be able to make the Fort requirement until level 12, and the Ref requirement wouldn't catch up until 18. (I find it slightly odd that they have a high Ref requirement, too, since the first ability they get lets them use Fort instead.)

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Umm...however you get it? I'll lower the Reflex to +4, but there's a reason for it - look at Shield the Worthy and tell me you don't have to be fast for that.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    I think a way to make the hit die issue more clear cut would be just to give him a d10 and a class feature for 1d6 bonus hit points each level.

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Well this reminds my "immortal" PrC from some time ago. check my sig. you might get ideas.

    But this is utterly broken. I mean truly, fully, undoubtfully broken. its nigh-impossible to kill. far harder then my immortal (yet with both the synergy is even harder to handle.)


    Quote Originally Posted by Cormag81 View Post
    2117: No matter how good a debater I am out of character there is no way to logically get out of falling after your paladin kills his patron god.

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Broken. While it does prevent you from gaining abilities you might have from your previous class(es), the abilities and hit die are incredibly powerful. It seems to be similar to the PrC that someone on these boards created earlier based on never dying, except you also can become very good at attacking. I think that it is overpowered. I could be wrong, but it is what I think.

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    A dual-wielding Hero with an idealistic heart. An ancient, magical, sentient sword with a sarcastic and snide sense of humor whose spirit takes the form of a girl. A conflicted mercenary with split loyalties. A former assassin with the powers of a Sage. It is a new tale of destiny in the land of Hyrule. The Legend of Zelda: Sword of Souls! (my fanfic)

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    As was pointed out earlier, WITHOUT multiclassing, you need to be level 12 to get in. Factor that into your thoughts.

    I have read Immortal, and I sorta like it. Mind, I do not like self-ressurection, but I like the idea. I'll accept that maybe 2d8 is a bit high. However, what else about this class, SPECIFICALLY, is broken? Let me break it down -

    Stalwart Contempt: Fort instead of reflex on certain Reflex saves. Doesn't seem too bad to me - you sit still and take the fireball in the face.

    Whirling Shield: Uncanny dodge for your shield A.C. Is that too bad? No, seriously, is it?

    Ignore the Pain: Common immunities, and at this point, the character is level 14 if he's single-classed, 8 if he multied to hell to get in. Still no issues I can detect.

    Uncanny Dodge: ?? If this is the part where things are borked, I'll be confused.

    It's Less Than a Flesh Wound: Maybe here's where things start getting bad. Let me explain - say you have LTaFW 5 and someone jacks you in the face for 6. YOU STILL TAKE ALL 6 POINTS OF DAMAGE. However, if someone hits you with a dagger for 1, you ignore the 1. Get it?

    Shield the Worthy: You can take shots for an ally once a round. YOU STILL TAKE ALL THE DAMAGE, unless it's negated somehow. This does not stop you from taking said damage right in the face if it goes through.

    No Martyrs: It extends the death threshold a bit, but all other death rules still apply. Well, except limited actions, that's covered by the ability itself. But they're still DYING.

    Trust Your Armor: It's got some synergy with ILTaFW, yeah, but if you have a +5 suit of chainmail and a +5 Heavy Steel Shield, it's DR 8/-. That's not a lot of damage that really gets shrugged off. If you toss a power attacker, most beings Large or larger, or, god forbid, a spellcaster in front of this guy, he's still gonna take it in the face.

    Imp Uncanny: ??

    Whipping Boy: Similar to the Masochism trait in the Book of Vile Darkness, it still requires that they've been taking damage to use it. And remember kiddies, nat 1s always fail and ranged attackers are hard to hit ^_^

    Vengence: Not sure on this one's power level.


    So, what needs fixing?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
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    Lady Tialait's Avatar

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Alright, I guess i'll have to help you again..I think peaple are thinking extra HD for the price of one..that is what i see alot of 'Brokenness about' but if you have a first level ability...like...

    Tougher then Adverage(ex): After your Initiation a Whirlwind Bastion seems to Grow at a almost unreal rate, Hereafter, a first level Whirlwind Bastion or Higher gains Twice as Many Hitpoints as a die reads for gaining Hitpoints. (I.E. If you roll a D8 and get 1 you instead get 2..if you roll an 8 you get 16...Con still only applies once)


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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    So an idea like Mr. Moron's, which is basically the same damn thing, but to make people feel better?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
    My extended homebrew sig

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Well, the extra hp go some way to help make sure that all those 'take it in the face' abilities won't actually kill the guy.. I think this is the scenario people are imagining for "it's broken":

    Mithral Full Plate (it's medium) and a Heavy Shield. That's a base DR of 5/-; combine with the highest level Less Than a Flesh Wound and you have to be hit with 25 or more damage before any damage at all is suffered. Add +5 enhancements to both and you get DR 10/-, so the damage threshold is 30. You're also wearing +5 Full plate and carrying a +5 heavy shield, which means your base AC is 30 and is probably in the area of 43 (+5 Deflection, +5 Natural, +3 Dex). That's not usually too hard for higher level melee monsters to hit, but they have to worry about doing more than 30 damage per strike to do any damage at all, so they have to Power Attack. And if they Power Attack for enough to reliably do damage, chances are they no longer reliably hit.

    Me, I don't think that's really broken. For the levels where it's actually achievable (with the class requirements as written, that's in *Epic* for the simplest entry and in the 15-20 range otherwise) melee characters need that kind of survivability if they're going to keep going head to head with monsters.

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Whipping Boy is a nightmare!
    A 20th level character can have over 300hp so when this guy's hp drops to 100 he can power attack for full and never miss. Thus doing +60 damage per hit!
    Any build with a charge related feat can now kill pretty much any NPC enemy and severely damage monsters with a single hit!

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Whirling Shield: A touch attack is just that, it just has to touch you. Your shield getting in the way would assist in most, if not all, touch attacks.

    Dead level at 4th: Shield Specialization?

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroNumerous View Post
    Whirling Shield: A touch attack is just that, it just has to touch you. Your shield getting in the way would assist in most, if not all, touch attacks.

    Dead level at 4th: Shield Specialization?
    There's a feat chain in the PHBII that lets you apply your shield's AC to touch attacks. Called Shield Ward, or something.

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by GoC View Post
    Whipping Boy is a nightmare!
    A 20th level character can have over 300hp so when this guy's hp drops to 100 he can power attack for full and never miss. Thus doing +60 damage per hit!
    Any build with a charge related feat can now kill pretty much any NPC enemy and severely damage monsters with a single hit!
    That's not much difference from a normal optimized charger using Leap Attack/Shocktrooper. Plus that would require, you know, walking around with only 100 hp as a main melee character at level 20. Good way to get killed.

    Level 4 ability: Shield Specialization would be ok; I would suggest Armor Specialization, but that's redundant with Trust Your Armor. Maybe Improved Toughness as a bonus feat?

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Gareth View Post
    No Martyrs (Ex): "No Martyrs," is another motto of the Whirling Bastions, meaning that they will never die in the line of duty. Starting at sixth level, they are dead a -20, not -10. At tenth level, this changes to -40. They may continue to move and act without penalty until death.
    I don't really see the point in this. Since you're letting them act normally at negative hp, just say that they get +10 hp and +20 hp at 6th adn 10th levels respectively, and give them Diehard as a bonus feat. Same exact effects, but by keeping everyone dead at -10 it's less to keep track of.

    Trust Your Armor (Ex): The Whirling Bastion takes her hits with grace, presenting chains, pauldrons, helms, and shields to take her blows for her. Starting at level seven, she gains DR equal to her Armor bonus to AC plus her Shield bonus to AC, divided by two, rounded up (so a Whirling Bastion in Chainmail with a Heavy Steel Shield has DR 4/-). This ability cannot be used if the Whirling Bastion is immobilized.
    Instead of "immobilized", the standard phrasing is "helpless", since that's the official condition name. Otherwise it's fine.

    Whipping Boy (Ex): At this point in her career, the Whirling Bastion has developed a slight tendency to masochism, entering every battle smiling a little on the inside at the prospect of taking blow after blow. Stating at ninth level, for every ten points she is below her full normal health, she gains a +1 on all attack and damage rolls. Additionally, the Whirling Bastion becomes immune to death effects.
    Yeah, this is too strong. How about for every 10 below maximum health? With the kind of hp this guy racks up, he can afford to take a lot of damage, so that makes this overpowered.

    Vengence (Su): The last teaching of the Whirling Martyr is one of energy and its motion. If you can turn your opponent's blows back upon them, then the fight can be won. The Whirling Bastion takes this to an extreme and literal degree, becoming capable of inflicting mirrors of the blows she has taken upon her foes. Starting at tenth level, she may choose to forgo rolling her own damage for attacks, instead dealing damage equal to the amount of damage she has taken in the last round to any foes she strikes. Note that this means she does not get any bonus damage from Strength, magical weapons, or her Whipping Boy ability (or any other damage modifiers), nor does this ability copy magical effects such as a Nine Lives Stealer.
    Hm... this is cool in theory, but it seems a bit underpowered for a capstone. Perhaps say that by making one attack roll, she can automatically do that much damage to every threatened enemy? It's still only an ability to use occasionally, when you took a lot of damage in the last round. You'd like to have more utility out of a capstone.

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
    There's a feat chain in the PHBII that lets you apply your shield's AC to touch attacks. Called Shield Ward, or something.
    How, precisely, does that change the fact that having a shield get in the way of an attack that only needs to touch you is pretty silly?

    DM: The wizard casts Disintegrate.
    Guy With Shield: I leap in the way!
    DM: Uh.. Ok.. Rolling damage..
    Guy With Shield: Ah-ha! But my shield applies to touch attacks, and it misses me!

  27. - Top - End - #27
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    Lord_Gareth's Avatar

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Well Zero, the idea is that you use the shield to keep whatever's trying to hit you away, whether it's that Disintegrate (the shield takes it for you, most DMs have teh shield take the damage too) or that dude there and his energy draining touch.

    Shield specalization - Sounds like a plan

    Brian's comments - No Martyrs is worded that way for a very specific reason. I realize it might be a little confusing sometimes, but it exists as a sense of their tenacity and determination, and because extending the dying condition =/= equal adding H.P., though it's close. The one thing that a lot of people miss about the feat Diehard (WHICH, I would like to remind those of who who didn't read, IS A PRE-REQ FOR THIS CLASS) is that you're still, well, DYING. You don't automatically stabalize. You're -bleeding to death- while you fight. No Martyrs has the same weakness.

    Do you mean 10% below max health on Whipping Boy, because your suggestion of for every 10 HP below is exactly what it does right now...

    Vengence - Hmmm.....think I must, Brian-sama.


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
    My extended homebrew sig

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by ZeroNumerous View Post
    How, precisely, does that change the fact that having a shield get in the way of an attack that only needs to touch you is pretty silly?

    DM: The wizard casts Disintegrate.
    Guy With Shield: I leap in the way!
    DM: Uh.. Ok.. Rolling damage..
    Guy With Shield: Ah-ha! But my shield applies to touch attacks, and it misses me!
    Because you've figured out how to deflect that stuff with your shield?

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    Kris Strife's Avatar

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Quote Originally Posted by Cuddly View Post
    Because you've figured out how to deflect that stuff with your shield?
    Because it means a melee fighter in heavy armor might actually dodge a magic attack and not get slaughtered against a caster

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    Lord_Gareth's Avatar

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    Default Re: You'll need to hit me harder than that...[PrC]

    Holy necro batman!

    Why'd you bother reviving this?


    Quote Originally Posted by Chilingsworth View Post
    Wow! Not only was that awesome, I think I actually kinda understand Archeron now. If all the "intermediate" outer planes got that kind of treatment, I doubt there would be anywhere near as many critics of their utility.
    My extended homebrew sig

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