The Grinder Group 2

[TheMeanDM]

I was just waiting on douglas (Ranvor) to do his "thing".

[Kat Steel]

i was away for a few days, but have been waitting for Ranvor to do his thing

[Toliudar]

Yup. Hoping to hear from Douglas.

[TheMeanDM]

I've poked him over in the Kumite thread to come post here....

[Douglas]

Ranvor

"Sounds like a plan, except for the slight problem of I don't think I can hold my breath that long down there. If you could come up with some way to provide air, at least temporarily, without having to wait for the rest of you to come down and then cast, then it might work. Oh, and that kind of sudden stop with my weight might break the rope even if I don't simply fail to grasp it strongly enough. How about tying the rope around me and lowering me down one segment of the hall at a time?"

[Toliudar]

Ex Machina

The big solar brings the representation of another Avoral to their aid.

All right. Let us try it that way. The Avoral and I will prepare to follow you down, creating gusts of wind as we go.

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As I read it, Sxoa, there's nothing that prevents casting a spell within an AMF. It simply has no manifestation as long as the AMF is in place. So, casting a gust of wind from a section of the tunnel that currently has magic, and extending into a part that doesn't, should mean that once the second segment's AMF is temporarily disabled, there'll be air in there, right? Even if we assume that the air from a gust of wind is "magic air"?

Make sense?

[Sxoa]

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Not only does it make sense, I also believe its correct. Carry on with the plan!

[Toliudar]

So, can we take it as happening. My understanding is as follows:

Others outside of the portal hold the rope. Perhaps one of our many shapeshifters can turn into something very big and strong, just in case.
Ranvor reaches through and shuts off the closest part of the AMF with iron heart surge.
Ex Machina and the Avoral fly through (holding the rope but, since they can fly, probably not pulling on it too hard. They start the process of creating another permanent gust of wind further down.
Ranvor descends the rope. When he feels his many enchantments shutting down, he does another surge.
As soon as the new gust is in place, all three descend further, and the process repeats.
When the three get to the bottom, they can do whatever they feel is necessary to secure the area.

My suggestion, then, is that we start to drop through the no-magic/airless part - effectively spending almost no time there, pulling up at the bottom where Ranvor stays ready to IHS whenever the magic kicks out. Not ideal, but it gets the game going again.

[Sxoa]

The first part of the plan goes off with out a hitch, as there is nothing in the tunnel that acts against you. Ranvor and the celestials are at the bottom of the "hallway" and may act as they choose. Ranvor hangs from the rope and the other two hover.

[Toliudar]

Ex Machina

Turning to the Avoral, Ex Machina speaks loudly enough to be heard above the rush of wind.

Please, my friend. I would like you to try to go twenty feet beyond that wall, using your teleportation, and then return to describe what is on the other side. Do you understand?

Nodding, the Avoral focuses, and vanishes.

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So, the avoral will use it's dimension door abillity to try to move beyond the wall and back.

[Sxoa]

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By wall do you mean what you are hovering above or one of the sides?

[Toliudar]

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The "real" wall, not the walls of force. My understanding from Mister Stabby's investigation was that the wall at the bottom/end of the tunnel/pit is material. I'm sending the Avoral 20' beyond it, and (hopefully) back.

[Sxoa]

The avoral disappears for a but a moment and reappears near the floor slightly worse for wear. It seems to have attempted to transport itself into a space already occupied by a solid object and was shunted back to the nearest open space.

[Toliudar]

Undeterred, Ex Machina brings into being a trio of earth elementals, standing on the stone floor. He instructs them:

You, dive in 20' and come back to report anything you sense. You, go 100' straight in, then back, and do the same. You, go in 10', turn a right angle and go another 50', then retrace your steps. Come back and report what you experience.

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Rolling for how many elementals he gets: (1d3)[3]

[Sxoa]

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Huge earth elementals couldn't slip between the force spikes are on the floor so I'm guessing you summon the largest possible ones i.e. large and send them through. Remember the shaft is only 10 by 10.

The elementals plunge through the floor. The first return in a moment and in the slow deep terran of its kind it tells you of what it saw.

The gravity of the room beyond is oriented differently from this one. This passage emerges from the wall of the next room. The room seems round but it is hard to tell, I could not see the other side as the air is filled with driving sand. There are jets of sand blasting down from the 10 ft high ceiling. The floor is a seething shifting mass of sand. The walls curve in gently and are covered in mirrors. We had to break one to enter the room. This is all I saw...

You wait but the other elementals do not return.

You figure that there is probably a gate or portal located within the wall and that when it dimension doored 20 feet through, the avoral bypassed it travelling into whatever solid thing exists beyond.

[Paladin Latham]

Mr. Stabby

"... Sooo, what did it say?"

Mr. Stabby dangles with interest!

[Toliudar]

Ex Machina uses whatever combination of telepathy, speech and semaphore that is required to pass along the elemental's information to Mr. Stabby, to Ranvor, and to those waiting above.

So, at least we know that at least some of the portals are two-way, since the elemental was able to return. I will send the elemental back to explore further. Anyone have ideas about how to survive among place of swirling sand? Can anyone render all of us insubstantial, for instance? And are the rest of you coming to join us?

Turning back to the elemental, Ex Machina offers more instructions.

Go back into that chamber and move all around, outside of it, to determine its overall size and shape, then return.

While he waits for the others to respond, Ex Machina summons a single, larger earth elemental, gives it the same task, and sends it through the wall as well.

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Using Summon Monster VII to bring in one Huge earth elemental, sends it through.

[Sxoa]

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Remember that huge elementals can't slip between the force spikes and thus can't "swim" into the wall. I'll presume you summoned large elementals unless you tell me otherwise.

You wait, and wait some more, but the elementals never return.

[Paladin Latham]

Mr. Stabby

Thats not good... Maybe a sand vortex that kills? Would wind take care of it? Maybe its heat from reflective surfaces and friction, could we freeze everything? Should I scout ahead?

Mr Stabby takes a sip of tea

This is so troubling...

[Kat Steel]

Angelique

The she-elf shuffles her feet un-able to think of something usefull to add to their situation.

[Sxoa]

Alright folks I have some bad news, but probably not unexpected. If you look at the time stamps on the last few posts, they're at least 5 days apart. The game seems toast despite an attempt at reviving it so in the interest of not dragging things out too painfully I'm going to declare it officially deceased.

I had a great time playing with you all, and it was a lot of fun while it lasted. Hopefully someday we'll get the chance to play again, perhaps in a game more suited to a lasting storyline.

May you roll high and your enemies always miss you (or some other suitably dorky and cheesey signing off thing)

[TheMeanDM]

Evaluation:

1) Great concept!
Problem-laden dungeons with killer stuff in them are the bread-and-butter of DnD. Using real-life "info" and incorporating it into your game was a master-stroke. I certainly never would have thought about the crushing water pressure or the heat generated by said pressure. If it had been my dungeon, it would have just been water filled and dangerous (with the demon kraken/squid thingie). Quite the intellect you've got to consider those other aspects (especially the adamantine-like material!).

2) Nasty creature
Whatever that thing was (maybe similar to the fiendish kraken I just fought in Krimm's campaign) it was nasty...but unfortunately, not nasty enough. If Douglas' character had rolled an initiative higher than that thing, I suspect we wouldn't have had to get into the whole "did Memphis die, etc" stuff.

3) Nasty environment
Excellent use of the (seemingly) little used Sandstorm book. Those desert storms can be just as bad as a creature--and harder to fight since you can't "kill" them.

4) Nice "gotcha" trap
Great way to make it look like a horizontal hallway, when really it's a vertical shaft. A trap after my own heart!

5) Party alienation
Anti-magic fields are perhaps the worst thing you can do to any party. Personally, I hate them with a passion and don't use them because there is no way around them and in my opinon they're an "easy" button for the DM when they don't want magic used.

When we encountered that shaft with the AMF's, I didn't think it was going to be such an insurmountable challenge. Coupled with the non-air/vacuum, I couldn't see a way past it. But thanks to an odd interpretation of the rules on your part, the creation of air eventually happened.

I think that was the start of the game's demise. It took WAY too long for a semi-viable solution to present itself, and we had to rely upon an "odd" ruling from you, the DM, to set us on the path to solving the problem. It felt like, well, without that "Ex Machina" intervantion (not the Solar) we would still be scratching our arses trying to figure out how to pseud-safely enter that shaft.

Luckily, your interpretation of the Iron Heart Surge rule was...different...than the commonly accepted rule (which I'm surprised Douglas did not point out. The commonly accepted rule is that only effects which personally affect the character are dispellable. Area-affects are non-target-specific, and therefore cannot be "disrupted" or "dispelled" by the Iron Heart Surge.

Otherwise, as someone pointed out somewhere once: Ragnarock is happening! It's affecting me! I use Iron Heart Surge to dispel Ragnarock!

By that same token: I'm a Drow with Iron Heart Surge. I go onto the surface, the Sun is affecting me negatively. I use IHS to dispel the Sun!

--Yeah, extremely dumb examples, but entirely *possible* given the way it's written.

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from the FAQ
What exactly can or can’t iron heart surge (Tome of
Battle, page 68) remove?
Instantaneous effects can’t be removed by iron heart surge. However, any effect with a duration of 1 or more rounds, including permanent-duration spells or effects, may be removed by iron heart surge, nor does iron heart surge restore damage or ability drain.
Iron heart surge doesn’t replace lost levels (though it would remove any negative levels resulting from a single spell or effect). It would neutralize a single poison coursing through your system, or a single disease that afflicted you.
---
In my opinion, Ability Drain by a spell *should* be able to be surged away, since the Enervated condition can be surged away. It's like the Sage (the guy who answers their questions) wants to have things both ways: permanent spells/effecs can be surged away, but not permanent ability or level drain? Where's the difference? Just my 2 cents.

Also, in their use of the term "condition", that means even being Grappled can be surged away. "I surge, and free myself from the kraken's grip."

Yes, the group was pretty heavily magic-dependent (Gregor was perhaps the least magic-dependent, being able to use Wild Shape) besides Ranvor and Martina and Stabby (the rogues).

But even then, we all pretty much felt...useless...I don't fault Stabby's 'owner' at all for not wanting to send him down dangling on the rope and explore the rest of the place by himself. Especially since if he had run into trouble we wouldn't have been able to provide him any backup (can't jump down--force spikes, no air, etc).

Having so many people feel so...useless...and then having the key people that actually might be able to do something to help go MIA/AFK killed the game.

What would I change?

Not much, honestly, except for this one particular "spot". The combination of no air and anti-magic is utterly....disheartening....and ruined the "flow" of the game.

That's my 2 cents. Hope that I can reprise the role of Gregor in another group!

[Douglas]

It's a little disappointing to see this die, but I'm graduating tomorrow and don't have a job yet, so I'll probably get back into it with my new party pretty soon.

1) Great concept!

Agreed. You violated quite a lot of the usual assumptions of what adventurers typically have to deal with, and that made for a welcome change in some ways from just going up against ever more powerful monsters.

2) Nasty creature

Yes, quite nasty, just not as thoroughly min-maxed as we were.

3) Nasty environment

Good use of it, too. I very rarely see the environment actually mattering anywhere near as much as it did here.

4) Nice "gotcha" trap

Yes, that was a bit of a surprise when we discovered that. I'm wondering if Mr. Scary is going to get caught by it or not, as you seem to have started him in the same spot.

5) Party alienation
Anti-magic fields are perhaps the worst thing you can do to any party. Personally, I hate them with a passion and don't use them because there is no way around them and in my opinon they're an "easy" button for the DM when they don't want magic used.

Indeed. The parts of my 6-man party I've already done include some significant investment in things specifically to counter that one spell, all of them things that have to be done in the character building stage to be available at all, and I'll probably add a few more before I'm done.

When we encountered that shaft with the AMF's, I didn't think it was going to be such an insurmountable challenge. Coupled with the non-air/vacuum, I couldn't see a way past it. But thanks to an odd interpretation of the rules on your part, the creation of air eventually happened.

I think that was the start of the game's demise. It took WAY too long for a semi-viable solution to present itself, and we had to rely upon an "odd" ruling from you, the DM, to set us on the path to solving the problem. It felt like, well, without that "Ex Machina" intervantion (not the Solar) we would still be scratching our arses trying to figure out how to pseud-safely enter that shaft.

Definitely. It's hard to top simply declaring that 95% of everyone's abilities don't work and you have a deadly obstacle to pass at the same time for making a game grind to a halt.

Luckily, your interpretation of the Iron Heart Surge rule was...different...than the commonly accepted rule (which I'm surprised Douglas did not point out. The commonly accepted rule is that only effects which personally affect the character are dispellable. Area-affects are non-target-specific, and therefore cannot be "disrupted" or "dispelled" by the Iron Heart Surge.

I'm not sure where you usually play that a target-specific restriction is "commonly" accepted, but that is definitely not RAW. There are ways to interpret it without going to such extremes as your examples.

Otherwise, as someone pointed out somewhere once: Ragnarock is happening! It's affecting me! I use Iron Heart Surge to dispel Ragnarock!

My ruling if someone tried this in a game I DM: Ragnarok is not a spell, effect, or condition. IHS cannot target it.

By that same token: I'm a Drow with Iron Heart Surge. I go onto the surface, the Sun is affecting me negatively. I use IHS to dispel the Sun!

The Sun is neither a spell nor an effect. IHS cannot target it. It causes a condition in Drow, and IHS could conceivably target that condition, but that's the extent of it. You might end up with a Drow in full daylight with no handicap (temporarily, anyway), but the Sun would still be up there.

--Yeah, extremely dumb examples, but entirely *possible* given the way it's written.

My take on it:
Ending spells is pretty clear cut.
Ending effects requires a definition of "effect". I'm not sure I can write out a really good full definition for this, but I can set down a criterion or two: for something to qualify as an effect, it must be caused, preferably directly, by in-game action, or do something similar to what a spell might reasonably do.
Ending conditions removes the condition but not the cause. If the cause is not removed by other means, the condition will return pretty quickly.

That's my 2 cents. Hope that I can reprise the role of Gregor in another group!

I've got a Druid spot that's mostly unspecified as of yet in my one-player party.