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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    SamuraiGuy

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoxus View Post
    I don't understand how the elf is supposed to be granting the group awareness thing...
    How about this: the elf guides the party in how to keep watchful. Designates a visual search pattern. Or, they have an air of watchfulness that inspires others to be the same way. Or, they have a pseudo-magical aura. Maybe they produce a pheromone that affects the parts of the brain that processes perception in others nearby. Maybe it's an effect of an herb that elves smoke as part of a cultural ritual. The +1 is due to second-hand smoke.

    Yeah, lots of fluffy reasons you could put on it. Personally, I like the idea of psychotropic elves over hippie elves, but whatever suits your fancy.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiirseva View Post
    "Group Awareness: You grant non-elf allies within 5 squares a +1 racial bonus to Perception checks."
    You know, i think this is a bad combination of trying to make all characters team players without making them use actions to do so, and trying to put logical limits on it.

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiirseva View Post
    Here's to hoping that Group Awareness, and other party bonuses, just flat-out apply to your party/allies/friendlies.

    I'm surprised they aren't moving towards that just with the way spells like Bless work in D&D Minis (it hits your entire warband for simplicity, and last the entire battle) and other spells are moving towards per day/per encounter/at will.
    Well, first off, that 'all in the warband' approach works in small scale encounters (as typically seen in minis), but not so well for larger scale activities. For instance, if the elf gets separated fro the group, the ability shouldn't apply.

    Here's the big distinction: elf and non-elf go scouting down the hall. The non-elf scout gets the perception bonus. the rest of the party does not get the bonus, should something come sneaking up behind them.

    Now, if you want to houserule it for simplicity's sake, go for it.

    Ew, houserules on a system that hasn't been finished yet. Maybe we should avoid that for now...

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiirseva View Post
    Well, I mean more for the range.

    Why stop to check 5 squares when you could just have that +1 on your sheet?

    Maybe just when in the same encounter with your elf buddy? It's not that big of a deal with this one, but I'm thinking of the bonuses that players will always be moving just a few more squares to get, whether they're aware of them IC or not. I care less about the IC/OOC awareness of these things, and more about it slowing the combat round down with players counting squares and hmming and hawing about saying they're done.
    Yeah, I do agree with you there. Though, I would be leary about making it encounter-based, as perception is one thing that is definitively useful outside of an encounter.
    Last edited by fendrin; 2007-12-21 at 01:52 PM.

  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by M0rt View Post
    First, it's not my fault I don't like most things I recently see about 4ed- though maybe I've really been to whiny. Second, I tend to focus on things I don't like, because otherwise I'd just say "alright, that was good". If you want to interpret it as "hating everything about 4ed", that's your choice. I actually found this article perfectly fine, except those two issues- but since everyone likes it as well, why should I repeat what everyone else says? And while squares are quite minor, lack of racial ability penalties is preety bad.
    No one is saying you should necessarily like it. I haven't liked everything about it, nor do I expect anyone to. I haven't been very vocal about my likes or dislikes myself. I don't think there is a game system that is perfect for anyone's needs, but they are working on a best-fit. This seems to support my best-fit so far. Sorry if I seemed a bit blunt with my other post (or even this one).
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  3. - Top - End - #63
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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Meh. I don't much like how there aren't racial penalties anymore, since I think that gave the races a lot of their flavor. It just seems weird for all races to be all beneficial.

    They're definitely making the elves basically all wood elves. I guess I'm glad that they're splitting off the elves and eladrin, if only because it means we won't have tons of subraces that have nothing in common except pointy ears and "[adjective or environment] elf" in their names.
    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by SurlySeraph View Post
    Meh. I don't much like how there aren't racial penalties anymore, since I think that gave the races a lot of their flavor. It just seems weird for all races to be all beneficial.

    They're definitely making the elves basically all wood elves. I guess I'm glad that they're splitting off the elves and eladrin, if only because it means we won't have tons of subraces that have nothing in common except pointy ears and "[adjective or environment] elf" in their names.
    I'll give you a great case against racial penalties: It starts with Half and ends with Orc.

    Orcs and Half-Orcs got screwed because they were strong. Then people avoided playing them and found they could make better builds without them.

    I admit though, one thing that bothers me about the all positives thing is that it almost forces you to go point buy. It's almost like they are balancing against point buy... however if *everything* is equally strong, then I guess it doesn't matter.

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by SurlySeraph View Post
    I guess I'm glad that they're splitting off the elves and eladrin, if only because it means we won't have tons of subraces that have nothing in common except pointy ears and "[adjective or environment] elf" in their names.
    Humans mate with other species to create "Half-X's" (and Centaurs).. elves mate with the dictionary.

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Friendly View Post
    I'll give you a great case against racial penalties: It starts with Half and ends with Orc.
    My group house-ruled that they get +2 Con as well to be balanced. Elves have -2 Con, Dwarves have -2 Cha, etc., and they're balanced. Drawbacks and advantages should come out equal.

    And, though I really like point buy, you're right that they're balancing towards it, and that annoys me a bit. Along with the increasing focus on squares and positioning and whatever the hell that online resource thing they've been talking about is, it seems to me like 4e is going to have a much bigger emphasis on standardizing how to play.

    Quote Originally Posted by Starsinger View Post
    Humans mate with other species to create "Half-X's" (and Centaurs).. elves mate with the dictionary.
    May I sig that?
    Quote Originally Posted by Thespianus View Post
    I fail to see how "No, that guy is too fat to be hurt by your fire" would make sense.

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by SurlySeraph View Post

    May I sig that?
    Yes you may

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by h_v View Post
    It beats:


    Ranger: Keldurn, you must attack the enemies are closing in!
    Keldurn: Aye, lad I can't, me axe only flies 4.56 meters, and they be 7.62 meters away.
    Ranger: Keldurn, I told you to buy the bow, I can strike at 15.42 meters!

    Point taken, but at least meters means something outside of the game, though I always thought it was funny that PC's can automatically know the exact distance of their adversaries at all times. I think I'd have a hell of time knowing if the guy charging me was 30' away or 35' away. So I guess squares are as good as anything.

    Point Conceeded.
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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Theodoxus View Post
    I don't understand how the elf is supposed to be granting the group awareness thing... I mean sure, it might have a higher base chance for perception, but that doesn't mean it will succeed 100% of the time.

    "Shh, I think I heard something" the elf ranger said. The party gathers around and listens intently. "Yeah, definintely coming from the left" says the halfling. - that I get.

    "Uh, i think I just missed my perception check" the elf mutters. "Yeah, there's a goblin ninja in your face, you ninny" the halfling giggles.

    So, the elf provides a +1 perception how? Fluffwise it makes no sense, mechanically it makes no sense... if the elf fails his perception check, everyone else still gets theirs? wtf?
    So, if there is an elf disguised as a human in the group people should find it out because they are more perceptive now? :)

    And what happen if he is asleep or unconscious? the group get the bonus all the same?

    Yeah, it is wonky, but if you want to play 4e is better than you get used to it, it is just a hint of course, but I have the strong impression that in 4e fluff come after crunch, i.e. first they come up with a mechanic, then they come up with some kind of explanation for it, and if the explanation don't work well, patience, it just mean that "a wizard did it". This is not the first time we have seen it, even late 3.x had the same problem but it seem that here are taking it a step further.
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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Mr. Friendly View Post
    I admit though, one thing that bothers me about the all positives thing is that it almost forces you to go point buy. It's almost like they are balancing against point buy... however if *everything* is equally strong, then I guess it doesn't matter.
    The only place I think it really matters, is the place the mighty Wizards are aiming for; the hearts and minds of the player. People who played half-orcs, even a good build, always felt like they were getting ripped off. By going all positive you are much more likely to make people feel better about their choices, whatever that choice may be. So even if it is balanced exactly the same way as 3rd edition was, it will alter the way you see the game by not having any penalties.

    Balance matters less in a game of this scope anyway, with a DM who can shift things to balance out a problem anyway... Well Assuming you have a competent DM of course.

    @Sebastian
    As for the elf having his own version of an Aura of Competence, my guess would be it is an active thing. If the elf is asleep it probably doesn't work, and if the elf is pretending not to be an elf it may not work. Though if a human has something similar (or all races have something similar) it does make disguise much harder.
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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    I like what I see, though it doesn’t completely alleviate my fears about 4.0.

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Nightgaunt View Post
    The only place I think it really matters, is the place the mighty Wizards are aiming for; the hearts and minds of the player. People who played half-orcs, even a good build, always felt like they were getting ripped off.
    Damn straight. Compare what the Half-Orc gets to what the Elves, Dwarves, Halflings, and Gnomes get, and tell me there wasn't any malice or stupidity involved in the design process.

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Heh, these new elves seem to be a lot more humane. Which I like, as I've always bugged myself on any race that, as a rascial charastic seem to have insufferable arrogance hard-coded into their spines.
    Thank alot for that one Tolkien...
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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    I think people are missing one big thing about this article, no mention of alignment. There was no "elves favor the Chaotic Good alignment becuase of blah blah blah."

    Now this doesn't mean that aignment is completley out, but I think it means that it will take a lesser priority, which in my opinion is a good thing. Hopefully we won't see the stupid alignment restrictions on classes either.
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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Maybe I'm not remembering correctly, but didn't they say in some older preview that races we're going to get abilities as they grew in level so that your race actually mattered after creation?

    This preview, to me, doesn't seem to be like that. Sure you've always got that +1 to Perception and the re-roll once per encounter, but it doesn't mention actually gaining (or even improving) abilities at higher levels. Maybe, as someone said, characters will get some bonus racial feats as they grow or something like that, but as of now this seems... well, not as much difference as I expected.

    I sort of thought that each race would have a progression like a class, or (for a better example) like the spell-like abilities of some templates, which are gained by HD. Elves, for instance, would start with extra proficiencies and the alertness bonus, gain a speed boost around 3rd level, get the accuracy thing at maybe 5th or so, and then those would improve or others would be added every few levels.

    Maybe I'm wrong, but what this preview says to me is that they're not really changing as much as I previously thought. The ideas and terms, yes. The mechanics? Not so much, besides abilities being per [round/encounter/day] instead of just per day.


    Other than that, though, it looks decent. I'm looking forward to getting the Races and Classes book at some point soon, so I'm hoping it'll have more info (though probably not).
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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Or he couldn't reveal everything in that article. Or maybe you get a new racial feat every couple levels, allowing you to "customize" your elf.

    And Races and Classes is mostly fluff, no hard crunch, and lots of explaining. Still good to read tough.

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Not specifically about this preview, but... let me get something straight. The Elves, the fey who have been expelled from the perfect hippie paradise of the Feywild, are all arboreal and huntery and illiterate, while the Eladrin, the ones who stayed, are all bookish and living in towers and casting spells? How does that make sense, except in a 'boy, these Elves must be compensating for something' way?

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    It just dawned on me:

    No mention of trance or immunity to sleep effects. No bonus vs. Enchantment (probably due to lack of schools). Hm.

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiirseva View Post
    It just dawned on me:

    No mention of trance or immunity to sleep effects. No bonus vs. Enchantment (probably due to lack of schools). Hm.
    They might get racial feats for those or something. Apparently they made race matter more at higher levels by making it matter less at lower levels.

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Durendal View Post
    I think people are missing one big thing about this article, no mention of alignment. There was no "elves favor the Chaotic Good alignment becuase of blah blah blah."

    Now this doesn't mean that aignment is completley out, but I think it means that it will take a lesser priority, which in my opinion is a good thing. Hopefully we won't see the stupid alignment restrictions on classes either.
    Holy crap, I didn't notice that. Does it mean that races will be no logner pidgeon-holed into stupid "usually X" stereotypes? I realy hope so.
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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Not that it matters in the slightest in actual play, but I notice that elf maximum age is "over 200", whereas (a long time ago) it used to be "about 650"...

    Oh and yeah, getting a "racial bonus" because somebody of a different race is nearby is silly, and it's probably one of those things that people will forget and that won't matter anyway since it's only a +1.

    Haley: Elf senses tingling! There's a secret door over there!
    Vaarsuvius: How can you have elf senses, you are a human, for crying out loud!
    Haley: That's because you are standing next to me.
    Vaarsuvius: And how can you be sensing something with my elf senses when I don't notice any portals around here at all? ARGH!
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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiirseva View Post
    It just dawned on me:

    No mention of trance or immunity to sleep effects. No bonus vs. Enchantment (probably due to lack of schools). Hm.
    I think that was all related to the fluff of elves being naturally magical, and thus will translate over to the Eladrin.

    Quote Originally Posted by Durendal
    I think people are missing one big thing about this article, no mention of alignment. There was no "elves favor the Chaotic Good alignment because of blah blah blah."

    Now this doesn't mean that alignment is completely out, but I think it means that it will take a lesser priority, which in my opinion is a good thing. Hopefully we won't see the stupid alignment restrictions on classes either.
    It's probably because WotC is trying to downgrade the importance of alignment as much as possible. From what I've read, 4th won't pay much more than lip service to alignment.

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Kiirseva View Post
    It just dawned on me:

    No mention of trance or immunity to sleep effects. No bonus vs. Enchantment (probably due to lack of schools). Hm.
    Elves are descended from those who lived primarily in the world, and they no longer dream of the Feywild.
    "Dream of the Feywild" == trance, perhaps? That's how this looked to me when I first read it.

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Starsinger View Post
    In place of 2 +2 bonuses in designated spots, humans might get a single +2 to any ability score of their choice.
    I actually expect that they'll be like Saga, they get extra skills and feats. Humans might also have some kind of racial ability that lets them reroll any one skill check for some kind of cost (an action point maybe?). That seems to fit nicely into the human as a generalist concept that D&D tends to espouse.
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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Beleriphon View Post
    I actually expect that they'll be like Saga, they get extra skills and feats. Humans might also have some kind of racial ability that lets them reroll any one skill check for some kind of cost (an action point maybe?). That seems to fit nicely into the human as a generalist concept that D&D tends to espouse.
    Given the new setup, I would expect a re-roll power to be once per encounter, once per hour, or once per day.

    Also, I would expect that there would be a human racial feat that gives them a +2 on the re-roll.

    What is also probably way overpowered but possible is that humans can take general feats in the place of racial feats.

    I also wouldn't be surprised by a human racial feat increasing their skill point bonus from 1 point per level to 2 points per level.

    You know, I think humans must be the hardest race to balance, with their versatility. I mean, there's a reason that most optimized builds in 3.X seem to be made from humans.

    I also hope the dragonborn can't 'carry over' any racial feats or abilities. I would hate to see 'multi-racing' be the new way to cherry-pick. I might have to re-fluff dragonborn to be born as such. Like medium-sized kobolds.

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by fendrin View Post

    I also hope the dragonborn can't 'carry over' any racial feats or abilities. I would hate to see 'multi-racing' be the new way to cherry-pick. I might have to re-fluff dragonborn to be born as such. Like medium-sized kobolds.
    I don't understand what you mean. How would the dragonbord "carry over" racial feats and such? Carry over to what?

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    In 3.5 Dragonborn are other races that become Dragonborn through a ritual. They lose their old racial abilities, keep their old racial stat mods, add the Dragonborn stat mods, and get the Dragonborn racial abilities.

    I think Fendrin is under the misapprehension that 4E Dragonborn are going to work the same way. They're not; they're a race of their own.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Rachel Lorelei View Post
    In 3.5 Dragonborn are other races that become Dragonborn through a ritual. They lose their old racial abilities, keep their old racial stat mods, add the Dragonborn stat mods, and get the Dragonborn racial abilities.

    I think Fendrin is under the misapprehension that 4E Dragonborn are going to work the same way. They're not; they're a race of their own.
    100% correct. I hadn't seen any Races and Classes info yet... too busy spending money on other people to spend any on myself...

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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Wow, this article contains a perfect example of description/mechanical conflict. In the 'Elvish Strife, Separation, and Rebirth' article we're told that few Elves choose to become Clerics, but in the Elf mechanics we're told to choose an Elf if we want to play a Cleric, presumably because they get +2 to Wisdom...

    I call shenanigans on that!
    Last edited by Matthew; 2007-12-22 at 11:27 PM.
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    Default Re: 4 Ed Elf preview

    Quote Originally Posted by Matthew View Post
    Wow, this article contains a perfect example of description/mechanical conflict. In the 'Elvish Strife, Separation, and Rebirth' article we're told that few Elves choose to become Clerics, but in the Elf mechanics we're told to choose an Elf if we want to play a Cleric, presumably because they get +2 to Wisdom...

    I call shenanigans on that!
    Why? Few elves, overall, choose to become clerics. NPCs aren't optimal, and elves making good PC clerics doesn't make Elven culture lend itself to religious devotion.

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