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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I have mixed feelings on armor for benders. Originally, all benders except Airbenders had proficiency with at least light armor and Earthbenders had proficiency with medium armor.

    To be honest, I'm not comfortable with the assumption that earthbenders and firebenders who wear armor multiclassed to fighter or ranger to gain proficiency and spent feats to limit ACP. The vast majority of these benders are members of their nation's respective military forces, and all of them wear armor. Given that your run-of-the-mill bending troops are mid-level at best, it wouldn't make sense for them to dip into fighter just for armor proficiency. If you look at the list of benders who don't wear armor, you get benders like Toph (who has a very unorthodox style and learned from Badger Moles, rather than established bending schools), the Boulder, the Big, Fat Hippo, and Shin Fu (who are the equivalent of professional wrestlers and honed their skills in an arena that discourages armor for reasons of showmanship. Again, a relatively unique style). These characters seem to be the exception to the rule, given that most other earthbenders are members of the Earth Kingdom army and wear armor. Also, we're confronted with almost every firebender wearing armor. I think that allowing earthbenders and firebenders to maintain their armor proficiencies is reasonable, both in terms of canon and in terms of balance.

    I propose the following compromise:

    We retain light armor proficiency for eathbenders and firebenders, giving them both DR opportunities and higher class defense bonus (column B, used for bards, rangers, and rogues). We also give waterbenders this higher class defense bonus. Finally, we give airbenders the lowest defense bonus, which is offset by their dodge bonus class ability.

    Then, in terms of ACP and proficiency, we make a note in the bending overview that armor heavier than light carries double the ACP for bending checks. We also create a feat that reduces the penalties to normal (as opposed to double) and a feat that further halves the penalties (though never bringing them to 0).
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    No, you misunderstand me. The basic troops in the army are fighters. They dipped into bending classes. They don't burn jack feats, because fire blast is DC 5, and they can barely manage that. They don't have to, you see. Fire Blast is just icing on their fighter cake.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    If that's the case, why don't we see them attacking with mundane weapons more frequently? It seems to me that, if a soldier is capable of bending, he or she attacks almost solely with bending. Sure, they might not show a huge variety of bending forms, but they're low level and lack the versatility of other bending disciplines. If I'm wrong, point me to where you see soldiers displaying a substantial mix of bending and mundane combat. I'll gladly revise my position if this is the case, but I'm not convinced at the moment that it is. Being in a formal military force doesn't automatically make you a fighter.

    On the other hand, if the Fire Nation's troops are primarily fighters who dipped into firebender for Fire Blast, why do they surrender without a fight during the solar eclipse in The Day of Black Sun? Fighters with a firebender dip would have plenty of options for conventional combat, especially against a force that seems to be substantially non-bending.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth View Post
    On the other hand, if the Fire Nation's troops are primarily fighters who dipped into firebender for Fire Blast, why do they surrender without a fight during the solar eclipse in The Day of Black Sun? Fighters with a firebender dip would have plenty of options for conventional combat, especially against a force that seems to be substantially non-bending.
    I'd say the majority of the fire nation military is the warrior NPC class, not fighter, many with dips in the firebender class, and they surrendered largely because the opposing force still had all their bending abilities, not because they solely relied on bending. You'll also remember that the military knew about the eclipse, and the whole thing was a trap. They may have planned the surrender.

    Some of the dialog in black sun also suggests the military isn't entirely comprised of benders. In The Deserter, the ex-firenation military guy who took Aang and company to Jong Jong (sp?) was clearly not a bender. Also, if their military solely depended on bending, why issue weapons? Also also, catapults. Why use those instead of having a Firebender army shoot giant fireballs?

    The problem with using the firebenders we've seen in armor as a reason to give them proficiency is that we've pretty much only seen the military. What about the firebending performer in the Deserter? He's a bender, should he have an armor proficiency? Bending is an innate ability that can be honed by training (taking levels in the appropriate class), and that training isn't necessarily provided by the military, even though often is in the case of the show, particularly for firebending. Armor and weapon proficiencies come from the necessities of the class; for a fighter to be a good fighter, he should at least be familiar with all kinds of weapons and armor, for a ranger to be a good ranger, he should be accustomed to armor that allows him to move quietly through his environment. For a bender to be a good bender, he needs to have an understanding of his element, no more, no less. Armor proficiency is unnecessary to the study and a hindrance to the practice of bending.

    rant over...
    Last edited by Pirate_King; 2008-02-18 at 02:12 PM.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    We could probably go back and forth on this issue ad nauseum, so for the purposes of getting this debate over with (because ultimately, this isn't that huge of an issue), here's another compromise.

    Airbenders aren't proficient in any armor, have the lowest class defence bonus, and gain their Wisdom bonus to AC. Waterbenders and Firebenders are proficient with padded and leather armor and have the bard/ranger/rogue class defence bonus. Earthbenders are proficient in light armor and have the bard/ranger/rogue class defence bonus.

    I guess I'm fighting for some armor for benders for a few reasons. The first (and primary) reason is maintaining the benefits that are available only through armor if we're using Lord T's item enhancement system. Second, I still don't necessarily buy the arguments for mook soldiers in the armies of the various nations being necessarily multiclassed. I can see circumstances where they would be, but I don't want that to be a requirement for armor use. Third is the close ties between bending and combat techniques. The motions required for bending are motions that could easily be performed in armor, especially light armors like padded and leather armor. Fourth is merely my desire to preserve options for benders. If they want some armor, they can wear it (though with limited options). If they don't, it's not required. Finally, I don't buy the argument that they shouldn't have armor because it's use is unnecessary for bending training. One could easily make the same argument for Rogues (who don't need to wear armor to learn how to pick locks, disable traps, lie and negotiate, use wands, climb/jump/tumble, or any of the other myriad of Rogue roles), Bards (who definitely don't need to wear armor while learning how to play the lute), Clerics (again, why do you need to learn how to function in heavy armor in order to learn to cast Cure Light Wounds), and a number of other classes that get armor proficiencies. It's clearly not about the training necessary to acquire their class abilities, it's about providing options for players trying to protect their fragile characters from tragic death.

    So, what do people think about this latest compromise?
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I propose the following compromise:

    We retain light armor proficiency for eathbenders and firebenders, giving them both DR opportunities and higher class defense bonus (column B, used for bards, rangers, and rogues). We also give waterbenders this higher class defense bonus. Finally, we give airbenders the lowest defense bonus, which is offset by their dodge bonus class ability.

    Then, in terms of ACP and proficiency, we make a note in the bending overview that armor heavier than light carries double the ACP for bending checks. We also create a feat that reduces the penalties to normal (as opposed to double) and a feat that further halves the penalties (though never bringing them to 0).
    Airbenders aren't proficient in any armor, have the lowest class defence bonus, and gain their Wisdom bonus to AC. Waterbenders and Firebenders are proficient with padded and leather armor and have the bard/ranger/rogue class defence bonus. Earthbenders are proficient in light armor and have the bard/ranger/rogue class defence bonus.
    I dunno, I like the ideas that Meph has proposed, though I'm leaning towards favoring the second option a bit more. Heck, I'd even consider giving the Airbenders both Wisdom and Dodge (like a monk) and giving Waterbenders just their Wisdom in addition to padded or leather armor.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    If airbenders get a wisdom bonus to AC, all benders should. Airbenders low defense bonus is balanced by the dodge, and there's nothing about the airbender that implies that they should have a second bonus to AC that any other bender wouldn't get. If we keep these armor proficiencies, we should probably drop the wisdom to AC option, unless we make it a level dependent thing, like gaining half the wisdom modifier to AC at say 4th level, and full sometime later.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    If airbenders get a wisdom bonus to AC, all benders should. Airbenders low defense bonus is balanced by the dodge, and there's nothing about the airbender that implies that they should have a second bonus to AC that any other bender wouldn't get. If we keep these armor proficiencies, we should probably drop the wisdom to AC option, unless we make it a level dependent thing, like gaining half the wisdom modifier to AC at say 4th level, and full sometime later.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    If airbenders get a wisdom bonus to AC, all benders should. Airbenders low defense bonus is balanced by the dodge, and there's nothing about the airbender that implies that they should have a second bonus to AC that any other bender wouldn't get. If we keep these armor proficiencies, we should probably drop the wisdom to AC option, unless we make it a level dependent thing, like gaining half the wisdom modifier to AC at say 4th level, and full sometime later.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth View Post
    So, what do people think about this latest compromise?
    I like it and I think that your reasoning is logical and soundly grounded in Avatar canon as seen within the show.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    sorry about the triple post of doom, there.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth View Post
    *COMPROMISE!*

    So, what do people think about this latest compromise?
    Hm. Seems fine to me. I always thought that martial artists, of all characters, should gain proficiency in padded armor, as that's the army many martial arts train in and go to tournaments in, though maybe not in the old days.

    Um, I know that this is a bit of a turn-around, but aside from padded and leather, maybe the firebender should also get proficiency with all light armors? Or atleast those cool-looking black-and-red armors that we see Zuko, Azula, Iroh, and most mooks wear, though that could be a specific quality of the armor, being attributed to the "streamlined" shape that Sokka mentioned in The Siege of the North.

    I like having a viewpoint opposite yours, Meph. It makes for good conversation.
    Last edited by Eighth_Seraph; 2008-02-18 at 09:23 PM.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Pirate_King View Post
    If airbenders get a wisdom bonus to AC, all benders should.
    *ahem* but airbenders are the closest to being monks, they mostly live in monastaries and seem more given to deep meditative thought. ergo, I find no problem with just airbenders alone getting the wisdom bonus.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I'm just wondering, how many rounds of combat does it usually take for a battle between benders using this system?

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Sir Shadow View Post
    *ahem* but airbenders are the closest to being monks, they mostly live in monastaries and seem more given to deep meditative thought. ergo, I find no problem with just airbenders alone getting the wisdom bonus.
    airbenders being closest to real life monks does not equate to them being the closest thing to the D&D monk class, which is just the Asian-influenced unarmed combat specialist. All the bending classes fit the disciplined martial artist description.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Pirate_King View Post
    airbenders being closest to real life monks does not equate to them being the closest thing to the D&D monk class, which is just the Asian-influenced unarmed combat specialist. All the bending classes fit the disciplined martial artist description.
    um... actually I MEANT that they were closest to the D&D monk class. Why would I talk about real life monks when it comes to bonus AC????
    Last edited by Sir Shadow; 2008-02-19 at 12:59 AM.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    The only things that makes them closer to the class are the dodge and evasion bonuses we've already given them. A third boost to AC would give them a clear advantage
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Personally, Airbenders should get their Wisdom Bonus to AC, and still keep a Dodge bonus, as it seems all of them ever portrayed never wore armor, and I think it keeps with the nature of wind over all. Waterbenders, should get some armor proficiency, though living on ice and the like really impedes wearing it often, as even their fighters barely wore what DnD would portray as light armor.
    I really like the proposed addition of Wis to AC for Waterbenders, especially if you allow it with Light Armor Proficiency, if you make it a higher level class feature. Earthbenders and Firebenders, with all the army mooks, I really think they deserve all the way up to medium possibly, and definitely have light armor proficiency. I think any bender in the army will have to be pure bender, while those who aren't are probably used as cannon fodder or have other less glorious jobs...

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Cieling we've already been over this several times and it has been decided, now we're debating whether or not to give all benders a wis bonus or just airbenders.

    It just seems to be (by the show which is what we're trying to follow here!) that airbenders are the most given to deep, meditative thought. Thus they should get a wisdom bonus. Maybe we can give waterbenders and firebenders a wisdom bonus at later levels than the airbenders, but I don't really see earthbenders ever getting it.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I vote we playtest without the wisdom to AC this round, and see where that leads us.

    that's not the only thing under debate right now, though, so we should probably decide which side we're going to take for this round of playtesting. Whats the updated rule set for that?
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Suggestions for the Avatar Template: Add a rule that says they do not take multi-class penalties for levels in benders. You also may want to add a rule that makes them take an experience penalty for leveling up on their opposite class,(e.g. Firebender taking a penalty on taking levels in Waterbender)
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    nice, fits the fluff from Bitter Work.

    in light of quickened bending, perhaps we can add a slowed or focused bending that gives a +5 competence bonus to the seed or form if the bender increases the bending time by one step(swift to move, move to standard, standard to full-round). This would reflect a bender taking time to do the form perfectly.
    Last edited by Pirate_King; 2008-02-20 at 07:58 PM.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    nice, fits the fluff from Bitter Work.

    in light of quickened bending, perhaps we can add a slowed or focused bending that gives a +5 competence bonus to the seed or form if the bender increases the bending time by one step(swift to move, move to standard, standard to full-round). This would reflect a bender taking time to do the form perfectly.
    It was in the original table, but was retired(to my despair) because it has never been showed in the show.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyr Adamantine View Post
    It was in the original table, but was retired(to my despair) because it has never been showed in the show.
    Neither was quickened, really. It makes sense with the system; Kata is easier to do when you're doing it slower.

    moved from earlier post, didn't edit fast enough:

    I don't think the weapon use of the ice shards seed is at all realistic, particularly after reading some stuff from the forms compendium. Daggers, shuriken, and anything that's small and sharp makes sense, but anything else just isn't realistic given the properties of ice. A masterwork longsword made of ice? It would break the second it came into contact with a real weapon, armored opponent, or a tree, even if waterbending was keeping it from melting.
    Last edited by Pirate_King; 2008-02-20 at 08:03 PM.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Neither was quickened, really. It makes sense with the system; Kata is easier to do when you're doing it slower.
    Eight Seraph had latter made a special table.
    I don't think the weapon use of the ice shards seed is at all realistic, particularly after reading some stuff from the forms compendium. Daggers, shuriken, and anything that's small and sharp makes sense, but anything else just isn't realistic given the properties of ice. A masterwork longsword made of ice? It would break the second it came into contact with a real weapon, armored opponent, or a tree, even if waterbending was keeping it from melting.
    Stop putting reality in it! God just killed a kitten!

    EDIT: And when the hell is the new episode coming?
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    well, no one's even made daggers in the show. the only ice weapon we've seen is the shards and those discs Katara uses against Master Paku
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Pirate_King, I'd just like to point out that there IS ice that is too hard for iron or steel to cut. Diamond edge drills and saws need to be used to cut it.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Not ice made from normal water. Proof?

    Ice's hardness comes from it's thickness, you can't tell me that normal frozen water in the shape of any weapon can be actually used like that weapon.

    also, there's the problem of creating a weapon whose use is based on it's material component, such as a rapier. A rapier made of ice would shatter before it even made contact with anything, simply by moving it in the way that you would move a normal rapier.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    3 kittens to the count...
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    Strongarm Warrior: An actually worthwhile Monkey Grip-focused PrC!
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  30. - Top - End - #330
    Barbarian in the Playground
     
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    May 2006

    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    hey, I'm just cleaning up. Besides, who knows if those kittens would have found a loving home, anyway?
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