[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[Pirate_King]

there are some seeds in the non-canon discussion thread. It's been suggested that sandbenders be a prestige class, though since it's really just a different way of bending rather than a more complicated one, I don't know that that's appropriate. Perhaps we could make a feat that an earthbender would have to take before learning sandbending seeds, and perhaps once she learned those seeds, other earthbending seeds would be forbidden?

[Eighth_Seraph]

I think we may have to put the answer to this in my signature, since the question keeps coming up. Basically, we don't know what to do with the sandbender because we really have not seen enough of them to know what they're capable of. Now, there's another seven episodes to be seen in the Book of Fire, and theoretically another twenty in the Book of Air. We're hoping to see some sandbenders in that span of time so we can stat them out.

As for making Chi Disruption and Disrupt Bending the same feat; it's basically been a balance thing from what I can tell. If we make it so that loss of limb control incurs penalties to bending, then they'll start stepping on each others' toes. Can anyone make a table for the guidelines we've laid down for the bending penalties so far? I think it was -5 per arm lost and -20 for both arms. -5 for legs, -20 for both legs. -15 for an arm and a leg. -30 for both arms and a leg or both legs and an arm. -50 for all limb movement lost. I'd make the table myself, but it's getting late over here on the east coast.

[Mephibosheth]

Wow, a lot of discussion has happened since last I checked this thread. Hopefully I’ll touch on everything…

Bending Study for non-benders
I love the idea, and think it can only make a good feat better. I do have some specific issues, however. I think that Evasion is too powerful to grant via feat. Perhaps Airbending Study could grant a +1 bonus to Reflex saves and a +1 dodge bonus to AC instead. Similarly, I think re-rolling once per encounter is too powerful for Waterbending Study. How ‘bout once or twice per day, but you can wait until after you hear the result of the roll before using the ability. I also think the Earthbending Study ability is too powerful, and think that the bonus against bull rush attempts is enough, especially if (as is usually the case) we extend it to cover trip and overrun attempts as well. I like the Firebending Study bonus, though. It fits very well with the firebending style. Pending any objections, I’ll add these to the feats.

Signature Moves
I don’t think we need to create a formal class ability for a signature move. In a system like this with severely limited options, signature moves kinda arise on their own, in my experience. Eighth_Seraph’s Specialized Bending and Form Mastery feats also do this very well (but more on those later). I think a class feature is just needlessly complicated.

Slowed Bending
I’m still mostly opposed to this idea. I say this for several reasons. The first is that I’m still not convinced that it’s demonstrated by the show. I could see an argument from times when benders seem to struggle with a bending move, straining to complete the form. However, this doesn’t fit with the focused and careful flavor on which we’re basing this ability. Rather, it seems like overbending with a bit of interesting description. Second, the proliferation of feats like Specialized Bending, Form Mastery, and Focused Bending could easily combine with slowed bending to make really difficult combos easy to perform. I’m still a little uncomfortable with the ease of some seeds (to re-open a can of worms, Blue Fire is the top offender on this list for me), and this could only make them easier to use. I know a lot of people like this idea, but it just seems too difficult to manage to me.

Firebending Armor
I like the idea, but I’m not too excited about creating a whole new type of armor. What if we created a masterwork ability that does the same thing?

Specialized Bending and Form Mastery
My worry with this feat is the same as I expressed above. If combined with other feats (and possibly slowed bending), you can make pretty impressive combos very easy to pull off. Plus, Specialized Bending is really just a more circumstantial version of Focused Bending, but the two stack with each other. I’d keep Form Mastery and jettison Specialized Bending. It’s a good idea, but somewhat redundant and I’d never take it over Focused Bending.

Combustion
I really like how you dealt with this ability within the confines of the system instead of creating a new feat or PrC. This is exactly the kind of thing I love about this system. Were I DM, I’d allow it.

Bending and the loss of limbs
I think this is something we need to deal with, but I think it’s going to be pretty difficult. The reason I say this is that D&D’s abstract hp/wound points system doesn’t do a very good job of dealing with limb loss. Similarly, the system never really deals with entrapping specific limbs. You’re either trapped, or your not. Plus, targeting specific limbs raises a whole host of other issues. What’s the AC of an arm? Does it get a Reflex Save bonus for being so agile and small in comparison to a leg or a whole body? How many hp does an arm have? Can you see where I’m going with this?

I suggest a system similar to the concealment rules instead of relying on called shots and specific limbs. We create several categories of impeded movement. Light Impediment (feet frozen to the ground) gives a -5 penalty to Bending skill checks, Moderate Impediment (bound wrists) gives a -10 penalty, Sever Impediment (encased in a metal box) gives a -20 penalty, and Immobile makes bending impossible. This way, we make things easier on DM’s when they’re trying to adjudicate these complex situations and we’re not relying on called shots.

I hope that’s everything. If you want me to elaborate on any point, I will do so gladly.

Mephibosheth

[Pirate_King]

And thus descended from on high, Mephibosheth. Meph, whenever you post, I read it in Patrick Stewart's voice. I don't really know why.

perhaps for the chi disruption/disrupt bending, we could say that anything that implies a dex penalty has an correlating affect on the bending skill?

and could you explain the skill point difference?

[Mephibosheth]

perhaps for the chi disruption/disrupt bending, we could say that anything that implies a dex penalty has an correlating affect on the bending skill?

I think I would rather just leave this a DM call, encouraging the use of the various degrees of impedement to adjudicate its effect on bending skill checks. Either that, or add a sentence into the Chi Disruption/Chi Immobilization feats to that effect.

and could you explain the skill point difference?

It is my impression (and correct me if I'm wrong, Eighth_Seraph) that the skill point difference is a hold over from the version 1.0 benders, where skill points weren't crucial to bending ability and the difference in the number of skill points wasn't a big deal. The reason I gave airbenders and waterbenders more skill points is that their style of fighting seems less direct and repetative and more varied, terrain-dependant, and adaptive. This greater dependence on mobility and adaptability seemed to point to granting more skill points. Airbenders and waterbenders have access to more mobility skills than firebenders and earthbenders, and need the skill points to exploit those skills. I also tend to view airbenders and waterbenders as closer to monks or rogues while viewing firebenders and earthbenders as closer to fighters. I wouldn't be averse to bumping up the skill points for firebenders and earthbenders, if the community deems it necessary.

I hope that helps.

Mephibosheth

[Shades of Gray]

Just letting you know I'm running a playtest campaign for the project.

Autumn Twilight

[Eighth_Seraph]

Bending Study for non-benders

Signature Moves


Slowed Bending


Firebending Armor

I'm either on board or willing to accept everything you've laid down here. I actually already changed the firebending armor once Tataraus gave me permission to use his item enhancement system. It's now a level 2 craftsmanship bonus.

Specialized Bending and Form Mastery
...If combined with other feats (and possibly slowed bending), you can make pretty impressive combos very easy to pull off....I’d keep Form Mastery and jettison Specialized Bending...It’s a good idea, but somewhat redundant.

That was my initial reaction when I made it, too. The reason I decided to post it anyway is because I needed more bonuses in order to make Hugh's enormous golem and Combustion Man's special ability, even after handwaving Breath of the Dragon as part of the latter form. the way I see it, any one character has eight feats available for use as bending feats, since no other class we allow under this system gives restraint-free bonus feats. One of those eight will be Skill Mastery, the rest will begin to pigeonhole the bender into a specialization. I understand that Specialized Bending is a thinly-veiled stacking feat to make a single form easier to do. Yes, it does have the potential to make impressive forms easier to do. Or rather one impressive form easier to do. I'm not sure if it has potential to be broken. I don't think it does in any overt way, but I want to playtest it in the arena before I conclude that. I'll make a level 10 bender in the arena and start using very specialized forms, and see if it's game breaking of not, alright?

Bending and the loss of limbs

I think those bonuses are far too low. Remember that the loss of two limbs completely incapacitated the earthbender guide in The Great Divide. A level 1 bender has a bonus of +10, on average. Move a Rock has a DC of 5. I think loss of two limbs should have a -20. My ideas for loss of limbs goes like this: the Steady Stance seeds take out both legs, and they need to be chiseled out one by one. The Chi Disruption tree can knock out individual limbs, and I was going to propose Dai Li abilities based on this and this. What with spells gone, there's alot less immobilization going on. Avalanches, cave collapses, and limb breaks are going to be main thing that prevent motion here. If anything, DMs can handle the special cases, I think. Unless you've got some specific situation in mind, I think we can make it work. Whether we should or not is a different question.

That's my take on our contemporary issues. What do you guys think?

[Rayzin]

I thought there was the promise of the updated PFD!!! ROAR!!!
*Rayzin bang's head against wall repetitively*

[Lord Tataraus]

I thought there was the promise of the updated PFD!!! ROAR!!!
*Rayzin bang's head against wall repetitively*

I'm so sorry, I've been really busy and haven't been able to do much recently. I should have some time tomorrow and over the weekend and I'll possibly have it up on Monday. However, I can't guarantee I'll get it done 'cause I have no idea what kind of stuff my profs are going to pull and what else will come up. If I don't update on my progress, you can PM me to annoy me until I get it done.

I'm also having a few issues with the software I used before so I might have to use something a little less professional.

[Mephibosheth]

The reason I decided to post it anyway is because I needed more bonuses in order to make Hugh's enormous golem and Combustion Man's special ability, even after handwaving Breath of the Dragon as part of the latter form. the way I see it, any one character has eight feats available for use as bending feats, since no other class we allow under this system gives restraint-free bonus feats. One of those eight will be Skill Mastery, the rest will begin to pigeonhole the bender into a specialization. I understand that Specialized Bending is a thinly-veiled stacking feat to make a single form easier to do. Yes, it does have the potential to make impressive forms easier to do. Or rather one impressive form easier to do. I'm not sure if it has potential to be broken. I don't think it does in any overt way, but I want to playtest it in the arena before I conclude that. I'll make a level 10 bender in the arena and start using very specialized forms, and see if it's game breaking of not, alright?

Ah, I see. I don't really have a problem with at least playtesting this, and I can see why you would introduce it. I suppose I wouldn't be opposed, but I might want to see a few seed DC's increase.

I think those bonuses are far too low. Remember that the loss of two limbs completely incapacitated the earthbender guide in The Great Divide. A level 1 bender has a bonus of +10, on average. Move a Rock has a DC of 5. I think loss of two limbs should have a -20. My ideas for loss of limbs goes like this: the Steady Stance seeds take out both legs, and they need to be chiseled out one by one. The Chi Disruption tree can knock out individual limbs, and I was going to propose Dai Li abilities based on this and this. What with spells gone, there's alot less immobilization going on. Avalanches, cave collapses, and limb breaks are going to be main thing that prevent motion here. If anything, DMs can handle the special cases, I think. Unless you've got some specific situation in mind, I think we can make it work. Whether we should or not is a different question.

I think my system of degrees of impedement would work fine to represent the situations you're talking about, especially since it only presents guidelines to the DM (obviously, I'd have to write them up in a more formal manner). I would rule that two broken arms counts as a severe Impedement for the purposes of bending, and would result in a -20 penalty. Similarly, Zuko having his feet pinned by the Dai Li would be a Minor Impedement, while having one hand pinned would be either Moderate or Severe, depending on the DM. We could even expand the system to cover things other than Bending checks, imposing penalties to attack rolls, ability and skill checks, and AC based on degrees of impedement.

I just think it's going to be really hard to model attacking specific body parts n the d20 system. Chi Immobilization isn't as bad because it doesn't require hitting the specific limb, it has a very specific purpose, and it relies on a relatively simple mechanic (save v. Stunning Fist) as opposed to damage, grapple checks, or any others.

Mephibosheth

[Pirate_King]

I think broken arms would impose even more of a penalty than just immobilized arms, because of the pain involved. A firebender bender using fire sweep (which, in fluff, utilizes spinning kicks) might take a -5 or -10 penalty for immobilized arms because it's just loss of balance, but would take a -20 for broken arms because they hurt while he's performing the seed. I think trapped feet wouldnt imply any sort of penalty to a water or fire whip, since that's all arms. I think to work this out, any given player and DM has to sort of have in mind how individual seeds or forms are performed.

[Superglucose]

You know what I really like about the system? From what I've seen (in independent play testing) the Benders (especially the Water) stack up fairly well in normal campaigns. Face a Water Bender, for instance, against a lvl 20 Wizard. If the Water Bender wins initiative, the Mage gets to be trapped. He had contingency still spells? What about Stilled AND silent spells? (Good luck making noises with your mouth frozen shut). I'm going to talk to my DM about letting me play the 2.0 versions in 'normal' D&D settings, because I like them so much. They seem remarkably balanced throughout all levels.

[Eighth_Seraph]

...I'm sure that was meant to be a compliment, but I'm a little apprehensive at a waterbender being able to stand toe-to-toe with a wizard. We made a point of trying to avoid that level of power, after all.

Anywho; I guess I can conform to Meph's "Degrees of Impediment" system for immobilization, on one condition. Break it down into at least four categories, such that the highest category of impediment will represent Bumi being trapped in the the coffin box...thing. Bending with nothing but your chin has got to be a -50 or something. Nobody even expected it to be possible.

As for the forms; I'm going to stat up Combustion Man. Oh yeah. Then I'm going to play him in the arena. Come one, come all.

[Pirate_King]

I just had an idea that is either awesome or ridiculously complicated. I shall let the playground decide

We've been seeing a lot of similar builds for benders of all types, and we've yet to figure out how to make a bender of npc proportions, such as Katara at the very beginning of the series.

Proposition 1: Make the bending skill available to non-benders.
since we have origin instead of race, a character could take ranks in a bending skill appropriate to that origin. They wouldn't know any seeds or any of the abilities of a bender aside from manipulate and it's variants. they could attempt to perform a seed (not form or template) by making a knowledge bending check equal to the seed's base dc, and the bending DC would have a +5 to the seed's base DC, -1 for every 5 by which the character beats the knowledge DC. This reflects Katara's attempt at the water whip when they found the scroll.

Proposition 2: Make different abilities affect different bending styles
Fire: Con (for breath's importance) Earth: Str (for the head-on power)
Water: Wis ( um. not actually sure. maybe something else) Air: Dex (for emphasis on mobility)
This would prevent bending characters from having the almost identical stat builds, and allow for more diverse characters.

Proposition 3(not really as good as 1 and 2, but worth suggesting)
Additionally, we could add half the benders level to the bending modifier, to allow more character flexibility (since Toph is neither incredibly wise, nor incredibly physically strong, but is a master bender). We would balance this by raising the DC's on some seeds, or get rid of synergy from knowledge(Bending).

[Shades of Gray]

Re-Watch the Blind Bandit and you will see how wise she is. She just chooses to be a kid a lot of the time.

[Pirate_King]

Fair enough. That was kind of just an after thought, though. What about the rest?

[Eighth_Seraph]

Proposition 2 was suggested various times and rejected repeatedly, for good reason. All the great benders we've seen, regardless of bending discipline, has had an obvious focus on Wisdom. Master Pakku, Jeong Jeong, Hugh, Giatsou, Bumi, Roku, Katara, and Azula can all be seen to be focused, calmer under pressure, and more likely to spout advice and philosophy than those around them.

I would actually be all for allowing non-benders the ability to use Manipulate and its siblings, maybe based on a Commoner feat (see Fax's Complete Commoner), or else arbitrarily assigned by the DM for plot purposes.

On that note, I would like to propose one more time to switch Deflect Attack and the Manipulate family in the class progressions. It's pretty clear that the first thing any bender learns is the basic ability to move their element around (see Bitter Work and The Firebending Masters to see Toph's progression). Of course, in order to make sure that the first level doesn't get too charged and overly dip-worthy, something has to be moved out. Deflect attack seems to be a good candidate for this.

[Pirate_King]

That would certainly make sense. Deflect attack is basically the same as the deflect arrows feat, and to have that at first level is a bit powerful

[Shades of Gray]

I figured people would learn how to control their element rather thatn use it to deflect other elements. Walk before you run and all that.

[FlyMolo]

I third or fourth the manipulate/deflect attack switch.

Despite my lack of contribution.

[Ceiling009]

Actually, I'm okay with the changing of the Manipulate abilities with deflect in terms of progression. I sort of always wondered why you had to have two levels to be a basic bender... but at the same time, it sort of front loads the classes, so that everything minus the seed progression, and actual bending combat is given quite quickly.

[jagadaishio]

I think that the reason the Deflect ability was presented to early on was for combat balance. That said, it really does make little sense for basic manipulation to come about later than advanced combat maneuvers.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Proposition 3(not really as good as 1 and 2, but worth suggesting)
Additionally, we could add half the benders level to the bending modifier, to allow more character flexibility (since Toph is neither incredibly wise, nor incredibly physically strong, but is a master bender). We would balance this by raising the DC's on some seeds, or get rid of synergy from knowledge(Bending).

You know what? This is interesting.

[Pirate_King]

Would anyone be opposed to giving benders a wizard's bonus feat advancement? Every five levels they may select a bending feat as a bonus feat? Overpowered, yes no?

[Superglucose]

One problem I've noticed while playtesting: Why is a waterbender/firebender not proficient with waterwhips/firewhips? I think it should be explicitly stated that a bender with the 'Whip' seed is proficient with any whip created by that seed. As it currently stands RAW (at least, my reading), a waterbender would need to spend a seed on Water Whip AND a feat on Exotic Weapon Proficiency(Whip) to be able to use the whip proficiently.

[Pirate_King]

I don't know if I should have been, but I haven't been counting the lack of proficiency on the basis that though it functions as a whip for attacking and trip attempts and such, a bender using their element to do those things does not necessarily go through the motions necessary to wield an actual bull whip. When we first see the water whip on the show, Katara isn't even actually touching the water she uses for it. Likewise, Zuko's signature fire whips aren't actually swung like a whip so much as maybe a spiked chain. As I see it, Water and Fire benders learn how to manipulate their element in a certain way that imitates the functionality of a whip when they take the seed, rather than them fashioning an actual whip and using it exactly like one.

[Superglucose]

Still, it would be relatively simple to add a clause stipulating that "A [fire/water]bender is proficient with the whip created." Right now, common sense says 'yes, you are proficient' but it seems to me we can make that RAW for those who don't have common sense Might as well, imo.

[Ceiling009]

Bonus feats would definitely help, but these guys are pretty loaded in class features as it is... how about an option of sacrificing seeds for a feat?

[Pirate_King]

eh, that kind of makes sense, sacrifice a seed for a feat that makes another seed better, but it's also kind of weird in my mind. I mean, I know no one would do it, but just that it would be possible to sacrifice a seed to take the extra seed feat feels odd. Still, I don't think bringing the max feats at l20 to 12 instead of 8 is terribly unbalanced, especially if 4 of those have to be bending feats

[Eighth_Seraph]

Would anyone be opposed to giving benders a wizard's bonus feat advancement?

Um, this is one of the few instances where I'm going to have to say that this is a bad idea, with no doubt in my mind. I've learned through the building of complex forms that [Bending] feats tend to be very powerful when used in tandem with each other, and even a wizard's feat progression would allow a bender to specialize in more than one form, removing the necessity for a bender to become a one-trick pony even after specializing extensively. It also opens up high DC forms much sooner, so that you could have a Gargantuan plant golem walking around in the low teen levels with little sacrifice on the bender's part. No, I'd say that bonus feats for free are definitely not a good way to go.

.. how about an option of sacrificing seeds for a feat?

That...actually strikes me as reasonable, but I can already see the abuse coming up. Benders get twelve seeds at 20th level. The most powerful forms we've come up with yet require three seeds, maybe four maximum. A bender can get the three seeds necessary for the ultra-form by level 5, then just spend bonus feats to lower the DCs from that point on. If we placed a cap on how many seeds can be traded out, then I guess it would be alright, but because we've seemingly achieved a level of power where the benders are well balanced against the melee classes, I'm extremely wary of adding anything new into the mix and upsetting that balance.