[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[Rogue 7]

Proposition 2 was suggested various times and rejected repeatedly, for good reason. All the great benders we've seen, regardless of bending discipline, has had an obvious focus on Wisdom. Master Pakku, Jeong Jeong, Hugh, Giatsou, Bumi, Roku, Katara, and Azula can all be seen to be focused, calmer under pressure, and more likely to spout advice and philosophy than those around them.

...aaand then there's Zuko.

[Lord Tataraus]

...aaand then there's Zuko.

I think its been demonstrated sufficiently in the show that he is not the best firebender. The flashbacks to his childhood show him struggling and its only been recently while his uncle is rubbing off on him that he has been able to do anything better than average like the redirect lightning. And then he lost his ability to bend...then he gained the wisdom of the dragons and can bend again.

On the trading seeds for feats, how about allowing that option every 5 levels? That way it caps, but you a regular increment as well so you don't front-load on feats or something for some dipping cheese.

[Rogue 7]

I meant that more in jest than anything else. I haven't had any input on this project (though I've been following it with great interest- I'll possibly run a campaign based on this sometime) because I think you guys know what you're doing and you don't need my input. I do agree that most of the benders on the show have shown high wisdom, and that it works for the system. So don't take anything I say too seriously.

[Pirate_King]

I don't mean to re-open this can of worms, but toph definitely displays a use of circular bending against the guy in the red cape

[Backlash3906]

I came up with a few feats to cover the "Jing" aspect of combat that Bumi discussed in Return To Omashu. Each of these obviously embodies a Bending style, but are also applicable to other combatants as well. These are all eligible as Fighter bonus feats, with the exception of Adaptive Jing Specialist.

Positive Jing Specialist [General Feat]
Prerequisite: BAB +6
Benefit: If you attacked last round, and have made only a single move before attacking this round, add +1 to your attack roll. This benefit stacks for each subsequent round it, as long as the player makes either a standard attack action, or full-attack action. If you do not attack, or double-move, this benefit ends.

Negative Jing Specialist [General Feat]
Prerequisite: Base Reflex Save +6, Tumble 8 Ranks
Benefit: If you did not attack last round, and make at least one standard move this round and do not attack, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. This benefit stacks for each subsequent round, as long as the player makes at least one standard move action, and does not attack. If you attack, or do not move during a round, this benefit ends.

Neutral Jing Specialist [General Feat]
Prerequisite: Base Fortitude Save +6, Listen 8 ranks
Benefit: If you did not take any action last round, and do not make a move action this round, you gain a +1 to AC and attack rolls this round. This benefit stacks for each subsequent round, as long as the player does not move, and takes only one attack. If you take a move action, or make any full-round action, this benefit ends. You may not take a 5ft move without losing this benefit.

Adaptive Jing Specialist [General Feat]
Prerequisite: Level 10th, Dex 17, Wis 15
Benefit: For a duration of 1 round/level, you gain the benefits of one of the following feats: Positive Jing Specialist, Negative Jing Specialist, or Neutral Jing Specialist. The feat selection cannot be changed for the duration of the effect.
Special: A waterbender or monk is eligible for this feat at 8th level, as long as they meet the other prerequisites.

[Shades of Gray]

Argh, Backlash, don't post the same thing in four threads. Chances are people will check this thread the most, you don't need the extra four.

[Backlash3906]

Argh, Backlash, don't post the same thing in four threads. Chances are people will check this thread the most, you don't need the extra four.

Sorry, wasn't sure what thread was most active. I'll remove the others.

Feedback?

[Shades of Gray]

You should probably increase hte prereqs, it is a powerful ability.

Couldn't a person theoretically utilize the negative jing ability by walking a lot? They could walk aruound for a while, and the would gain insane bonuses so that no one can hit them. Essentially, a long day of walking around makes you impossible to hit.

[Zeal]

I don't mean to re-open this can of worms, but toph definitely displays a use of circular bending against the guy in the red cape

I don't know, after watching the clip, it doesn't seem like she used the same earth to attack. It was likely just a near miss and a readied action.

[Mephibosheth]

Ok, I’ve let this thread get away from me a little bit (again). *catches up*

Here’s a write-up of my “degrees of impediment ” system for your review. I’m more than open to changes or scrapping the system entirely, if there’s an alternative the community prefers.

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Degrees of Impediment

Certain conditions and effects can prevent movement and impede the bending or fighting ability of a character. These effects come in a wide variety of forms, from broken or damaged limbs to entangling. The DM can determine the degree of impediment a specific condition or effect imposes, using guidelines presented below. Additionally, varying degrees of impediment may impose penalties in addition to those listed here, to be decided by the DM.

Minor Impediment:
A character under the effect of a minor impediment has difficulty moving her limbs, making bending and fighting difficult. Characters under this effect take a -1 penalty on attack rolls and armor class and a -5 penalty on all skill and ability checks that require movement (including Bending skill checks). Examples of minor impediment include having one’s feet frozen to the floor or being tangled in hanging (but inanimate) vines.

Moderate Impediment:
A character under the effect of a moderate impediment may have lost the use of a single limb or has relatively significant difficulty moving. Characters under this effect take a -2 penalty on attack rolls and armor class and a -15 penalty on all skill and ability checks that require movement (including Bending skill checks). Examples of moderate impediment include firmly bound wrists or a single injured arm or leg.

Severe Impediment:
A character under the effect of a severe impediment may have lost the use of multiple limbs or has severe difficulty moving. Characters under this effect take a -4 penalty on attack rolls and armor class and a -30 penalty on all skill and ability checks that require movement (including Bending skill checks). Examples of severe impediment include at least two immobilized or injured limbs.

Extreme Impediment:
A character under the effect of an extreme impediment can hardly move any part of their body. Characters under this effect take a -10 penalty on attack rolls (if they can make any attacks at all) and armor class and a -50 penalty on all skill and ability checks that require movement (including Bending skill checks). Examples of extreme impediment include complete loss of limb function or encasement in a metal box.

Immobilized:
An immobilized character cannot make attack rolls, takes a -20 AC penalty and is denied his or her dexterity bonus to armor class, and cannot make skill checks that require movement (including Bending skill checks). The character can still take purely mental or verbal actions, and is not considered helpless.

Possible Additional Penalties:

• Unable to move – The character’s legs or feet are somehow immobilized, and she cannot move out of her current square.
• Prone – The character is so highly impeded that she loses her balance and is rendered prone. This condition can be negated with a successful Balance check (at the DM’s discretion).
• Feat/ability usage penalties – The character’s impediment makes using certain feats impossible or difficult. Examples include attempting to use Two Weapon Fighting or fire a longbow with bound hands.

Also, here’s a simple re-write of the Chi Disruption feat tree to incorporate this system (changes underlined).

Chi Disruption [General, Fighter]
Your accurate strikes block the flow of chi with a person’s body, hampering their movement.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, BAB +6, Wis 13+
Benefit: At the cost of a Stunning Fist attempt, you may make a precisely-placed strike at a weak point in your opponent’s body, blocking the flow of her chi and making even simple movements difficult. If you hit with an unarmed strike, the target must make a Fortitude save (DC 10 + half your character level + your Wisdom modifier) or take a -2 penalty to Dexterity or Strength (your choice). Additionally, a bender affected by this feat may become impeded at the DM’s option. If you miss with your unarmed strike or the target successfully saves, you still count as having expended the Stunning Fist. Unlike the Stunning Fist feat, you can use this feat multiple times in a single round and multiple uses on the same target are cumulative. This feat can never reduce a creature’s Dexterity score below 1. You can only use this feat against foes of the Humanoid type.
Special: A fighter may select Chi Disruption as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Improved Chi Disruption [General, Fighter]
With a flurry of precise blows, you are able to render a foe unconscious or immobile.
Prerequisites: Improved Unarmed Strike, Stunning Fist, Chi Disruption, BAB +9, Wis 13+
Benefit: Your Chi Disruption attempts deal ability damage instead of imposing ability penalties. This means that you can reduce an opponent’s abilities to 0 using this feat. In addition, the DC to resist your Chi Disruption attempts increases by 2. Finally, if you reduce an opponent's ability score to 0 using this feat, the opponent must make a Will save or fall unconscious. As with the Chi Disruption feat, a bender may become impeded at the DM’s option. You can only use this feat against foes of the Humanoid type.
Special: A fighter may select Improved Chi Disruption as one of his fighter bonus feats.

NPC and low-level benders:
I support the decision to switch Deflect Attack and Manipulate/Play with Fire/Move a Rock/Wind Shaping. I’ll make the change this evening when I have access to my drawing programs.

I’m not sure how I feel about using different abilities to represent bending. Every time bending is explained in the show, it’s in terms of discipline and understanding of both self and the element, which seems like wisdom to me. Additionally, all of the very powerful benders we see seem wise in their own ways. Even benders like Toph and Aang, who sometimes seem flighty or immature, have nuanced understanding of the philosophies behind their respective elements/roles that go beyond simple rote learning. On the other hand, I could see a pedantic bender becoming relatively skilled through rote learning and hard study, and force of personality could potentially aid bending as well. I would consider a sidebar rule to this effect, but not a main rule. Also, I’m opposed to basing bending on physical attributes, no matter how much this may seem to represent the various disciplines. For one thing, this ensures that at least some MAD occurs. It also seems to represent the way the show portrays the disciplines, where Aang’s physical toughness isn’t critical to earthbending, but rather his mental and emotional resolve. Watch the episode Bitter Work for more information.

Finally, I don’t really like Pirate_King’s proposition 3, merely because it seems like unnecessary Bending skill and DC inflation. This is especially true with the decision to grant benders’ prestidigitation at 1st level.

Bending Feats:
I’m with Eighth_Seraph on this already. Bending feats can be extremely powerful, and benders already have enough class features. There are (limited) options already available in the SRD for getting a few more bonus feats, and benders aren’t extremely feat-dependant anyway. Sacrificing seeds for feats sounds complicated, difficult to balance, and prone to cheese, imho.

Whip Proficiencies:
Whoops. That (I think) was an oversight in version 2.0. If I remember aright, there was a sentence in the original versions of those seeds that granted proficiency. Regardless, I will add that in when I make updates on the class tables this evening.

Jing Feats:
I like this idea, though I think it could use some refinement. We’re always looking for more feats!

I like the idea of Positive Jing, but I think it could be come ridiculously powerful very quickly. I suggest a cap of some sort (perhaps the bonus to attack rolls is limited to +5 or something similar based on abilities or class level) as well as a penalty to AC to provide a bit of offset.

Negative Jing Specialist is interesting, but I would rather see a bonus to AC when the character is fighting defensively, using total defense, or using the Combat Expertise feat. It just seems clearer that way. Again, if it’s going to increase every round it should have a cap and perhaps an offsetting penalty to attack rolls.

Neutral Jing Specialist is interesting (though again, it needs a cap). The requirement to spend actions doing nothing provides an interesting balancing factor that (with the cap) makes this feat seem pretty good on the face of it.
Adaptive Jing seems like a clearly superior feat to the others, but only becomes available at 12th level (baring bonus feats). Perhaps change the prerequisites to require character level 12 instead of 10, to ensure that the feat comes later than the others.

Those are my thoughts.

Mephibosheth

[Pirate_King]

What of the bending skill for characters or npc's without a level in bender? This could allow some fun RP stuff without forcing a multiclass. Taking ranks in the skill without taking levels in the class would allow you the prestidigitation equivalent, and perhaps 1 seed (not a template), and maybe the ability to imitate another seed, maybe form, a number of times per day equal to the wisdom modifier. To imitate the seed or form, they had to have studied a bender using that ability and attempt it no later than a week, or have some kind of scroll. They wouldn't get to keep this imitated ability (unless they have the scroll, which they'd have to study the day they use the ability) since they'd be working on whatever class they actually have levels in.

Jing feats, I dunno. I thought of Jing as a philosophy, not as a combat ability. I guess more feats is always cool, but I just figured it had more to do with character description.

[Backlash3906]

Jing Feats:
I like this idea, though I think it could use some refinement. We’re always looking for more feats!

I like the idea of Positive Jing, but I think it could be come ridiculously powerful very quickly. I suggest a cap of some sort (perhaps the bonus to attack rolls is limited to +5 or something similar based on abilities or class level) as well as a penalty to AC to provide a bit of offset.

Negative Jing Specialist is interesting, but I would rather see a bonus to AC when the character is fighting defensively, using total defense, or using the Combat Expertise feat. It just seems clearer that way. Again, if it’s going to increase every round it should have a cap and perhaps an offsetting penalty to attack rolls.

Neutral Jing Specialist is interesting (though again, it needs a cap). The requirement to spend actions doing nothing provides an interesting balancing factor that (with the cap) makes this feat seem pretty good on the face of it.
Adaptive Jing seems like a clearly superior feat to the others, but only becomes available at 12th level (baring bonus feats). Perhaps change the prerequisites to require character level 12 instead of 10, to ensure that the feat comes later than the others.

My revision attempts. Let me show you them.

Positive Jing Specialist [General Feat]
Prerequisite: BAB +6
Benefit: If you attacked last round, and have made only a single move before attacking this round, add +1 to your attack roll. This benefit stacks for each subsequent round it, as long as the player makes either a standard attack action, or full-attack action. If you do not attack, or double-move, this benefit ends. The maximum bonus a player can receive to their attack rolls from this benefit is +6. Furthermore, for every +2 bonus, the player takes a -1 penalty to AC. A player using this feat cannot fight defensively, or they lose the benefit of this feat.

Negative Jing Specialist [General Feat]
Prerequisite: Base Reflex Save +6, Tumble 8 Ranks
Benefit: If you did not attack last round, and make at least one standard move this round and do not attack, you gain a +1 dodge bonus to AC. This benefit stacks for each subsequent round, as long as the player makes at least one standard move action, and does not attack. If you attack, or do not move during a round, this benefit ends. This benefit may only be employed while involved in combat. Fighting defensively or using all-out defense do not end this benefit. Combat Expertise does not end this benefit, so long as only a single attack is made. The maximum bonus a player can receive to AC from this benefit is +6. Furthermore, for every +2 bonus, the player takes a -1 penalty to attack rolls.

Neutral Jing Specialist [General Feat]
Prerequisite: Base Fortitude Save +6, Listen 8 ranks
Benefit: If you did not take any action last round, and do not make a move action this round, you gain a +1 to AC and attack rolls this round. This benefit stacks for each subsequent round, as long as the player does not move, and takes only one attack. If you take a move action, or make any full-round action, this benefit ends. You may not take a 5ft move without losing this benefit. The maximum bonus a player can receive from this benefit is +6.

Adaptive Jing Specialist [General Feat]
Prerequisite: Level 12th, Dex 17, Wis 15
Benefit: For a duration of 1 round/level, you gain the benefits of one of the following feats: Positive Jing Specialist, Negative Jing Specialist, or Neutral Jing Specialist. The feat selection cannot be changed for the duration of the effect.
Special: A waterbender or monk is eligible for this feat at 9th level, as long as they meet the other prerequisites.

--
That help at all? I was really excited to see no other proposals of feats surrounding this concept, so I hope these can be of help. (: If there's any more fine-tuning needed, please reply or PM with your proposed version of them.

[Backlash3906]

Jing feats, I dunno. I thought of Jing as a philosophy, not as a combat ability. I guess more feats is always cool, but I just figured it had more to do with character description.

It was described as "--options in fighting called Jing. It's a choice of how you direct your energy." Based on that, I tried to construct the feats to make sure you could gain the benefit of no more than one at a time. Only directing your energy in one chosen path.

[jagadaishio]

The Airbender's Leap seed on the main site has the wrong descriptive text in it.

[Darkbane]

Big balance problem with Adaptive Jing: the feat description doesn't state how many time per day you can use it. Thus, one could just use it every few rounds for a continuous bonus. Maybe limit it to 1/day, 3/day, or char. level times/day?

[Eighth_Seraph]

Nah, I don't see any need for a per day limit, the same way that Power Attack and Combat Expertise don't have limits. To be perfectly honest, I don't think that there's any need to make these feats, but the concept is canon there's no harm done to the setting, so there's no reason not to incorporate them They look good as they are right now; nicely done, Backlash.

Anyway, I have an idea for something new. I can't get it out of my head that the current system we have for forms is entirely too prone to a munchkin just printing the Bending Forms Compendium and using every form he has the ability to. I don't think that roleplaying restrictions are strong enough to prevent munckinizing here, so I have an idea that I think makes sense.

Knowledge (Bending)
Throughout the four nations, there are benders of all styles and creeds applying their knowledge and experience to the bending arts. Many of these become warriors or soldiers, using the four elements to defend innocents or conquer others. However, there are other benders or even non-bending scholars who apply their knowledge of the bending arts in order to create new ways to apply the four elements by designing bending forms beyond the scope that basic bending techniques can do alone.

In order to design a bending form that goes beyond using the printed abilities of the bending seeds used to make it, you must first make a Knowledge (Bending) check equal to the Base DC of the form. Once you have designed a bending form, you may teach it to anyone or write it upon a scroll for anyone to learn from. If you do not practice the bending art for which you are designing the form, you take a -5 on this check.

Learning a Bending Form
Learning a bending form from an teacher who knows the form requires training for a number of days equal to (the bending DC of the form minus your ranks in the bending art) divided by one-fifth your teacher's Knowledge (Bending) modifier, with a minimum of 2 days of training being required before you can use the form reliably.


The wording's pretty awkward on that last part, but I think it gets the point across. Honestly, if we were making a splatbook for this system, I would devote a chapter the size of the PHB's spellcasting section just to forms. I have some ideas for segmented forms and more specific uses of communal bending. Keep your eyes on the forms compendium for world-shattering overbending-based forms.

[Rayzin]

Where is the PFD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

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[Lord Tataraus]

Where is the PFD!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

It is more than halfway complete. I've changed formatting a few times and have finally settled on one I like. About....75% is complete I'd say, though I need a few clarifications: are the manipulate abilities switched with the Deflect Attack? If so, does the Waterbender's Heat/Chill go to 1st level or stay at 2nd? Are there any other changes that are not on the main website?

Remember I can easily add stuff later so something still in the works doesn't need to be rushed. I will hopefully have the pdf up tomorrow and I'll post the link on the main hub thread. Very sorry for all the delays. 4 exams in one week is not fun.

P.S. Rayzin: you might want to remove those spoilers, they might get you reported and I don't want that to happen, I know you are angry at me and I'm very sorry, but school comes first.

[Shades of Gray]

Maybe we should rename Freeze/Melt, to Freeze/Thaw. Melt sounds like firebending.

[Pirate_King]

Knowledge (Bending)
Throughout the four nations, there are benders of all styles and creeds applying their knowledge and experience to the bending arts. Many of these become warriors or soldiers, using the four elements to defend innocents or conquer others. However, there are other benders or even non-bending scholars who apply their knowledge of the bending arts in order to create new ways to apply the four elements by designing bending forms beyond the scope that basic bending techniques can do alone.

In order to design a bending form that goes beyond using the printed abilities of the bending seeds used to make it, you must first make a Knowledge (Bending) check equal to the Base DC of the form. Once you have designed a bending form, you may teach it to anyone or write it upon a scroll for anyone to learn from. If you do not practice the bending art for which you are designing the form, you take a -5 on this check.

Learning a Bending Form
Learning a bending form from an teacher who knows the form requires training for a number of days equal to (the bending DC of the form minus your ranks in the bending art) divided by one-fifth your teacher's Knowledge (Bending) modifier, with a minimum of 2 days of training being required before you can use the form reliably.

Interesting, but it sounds rather difficult, considering any given bender is probably going to have a much higher bending modifier than knowledge(bending modifier) Maybe make the knowledge check half the DC of the intended form, or the DC without the extra 4 for combining them? or make the synergy for knowledge and bending go both ways? I just think for a bender to be able to reasonably invent their own forms, they'd have to have equal knowledge and bending modifiers, meaning they'd have to have equal int and wis mods, skill focus for both skills, etc. I also feel like this takes away from the spontaneity and flexibility you sought to protect earlier, it keeps a bender from coming up with an interesting solution to her problem on the spot. I think forms are limited enough by the seeds you have to know to perform them.

If you do not practice the bending art for which you are designing the form, you take a -5 on this check.

what does that mean, like an airbender inventing a waterbending form? or a non-bender creating any form?

[Eighth_Seraph]

Maybe make the knowledge check half the DC of the intended form, or the DC without the extra 4 for combining them?

I don't think that's necessary, because remember that it's only the Base DC of the form that has to be matched, and the base DCs tend to be in the 20's and low 30's if the form compendium's first page is any indication. I do like the idea of synergy working both ways, though.

I also feel like this takes away from the spontaneity and flexibility you sought to protect earlier, it keeps a bender from coming up with an interesting solution to her problem on the spot. I think forms are limited enough by the seeds you have to know to perform them.

Right, I understand completely. I kind of want to put this in a glass box of the pdf with sign saying "In Case of Munchkins, Break Glass." I do think that this use of the skill is supported by canon, though (Master Pakku giving Katara a box of waterbending scrolls to study, and Katara's large repertoire of forms displayed in The Crossroads of Destiny). I would also like to point out that you only need to "design" a form that uses the fluff of its constituent seeds but not the crunch. You guys remember my Drillspike form? It had a base DC of 10 and didn't refer to any of the usual abilities that the Ice Shards seed usually does. That's a form that would require a Knowledge (Bending) check to make. The There's No Escape form uses crunch from its constituent seeds, though, so that one could be improvised by anybody that can pull it off.

what does that mean, like an airbender inventing a waterbending form? or a non-bender creating any form?

Both, actually. It took me a few drafts to come up with wording that would be inclusive like that. Still not quite right? Hrm. Maybe this penalty could be removed through application of the [Element]bending Study feats...

Alright, there's my reasoning. What do you guys think? I can totally understand if the idea needs to be scrapped, but I thought that I should at least bring it up.


Also, I'd like to be the first to formally ask everyone to please be patient and cool the flames over the pdf. PM Lord Tataraus if you're concerned; but be cordial, and please do not clutter the thread with angry smilies. There's been two or three occasions of these flames on this thread alone. Any more that follow anywhere on the project will be reported. Now let's get off that note and go back to avatar-brewing and reviewing, eh?

[Lord Tataraus]

Wow, I've just spent the last 5 hours working on the pdf and now I am almost complete, however I need one more clarification, a poll, and a request.

Clarification: Are the prestige classes from the original bending thread (Disciple of Healing Waters and Dai Li Agent) to be included in the pdf? The website does not include them and I don't know if that is because they were overlooked by accident or on purpose, it won't take long to include them, but the pdf is currently 74 pages long and I'd like to keep the size down.

Poll: I have decided that it would be best to split up the project amongst a number of documents instead of one huge one. There are a number of reasons for this, 1: the pdf is currently ~500KB as the printable version (not the high quality color one), 2: The pdf is quite long and it might be cumbersome to navigate throughout the whole thing to find what you're looking for and multiple documents might make referencing a bit easier, 3: I can publish the pdf right now in its current incarnation instead of making you wait another few days or weeks to have everything included. So, my poll is twofold:

Yes or No: should I split up the project into multiple pdfs, publishing the core of the project now?

If I do split up the project what would the best organization of the supplements be? Individual forms compendium, Creatures and Opponents, Machinery, and Variants (currently only the core of the project - benders v2 and Eighth's monk and ranger - are included). Or should I mix them into one or a couple supplements. Or should I split up the current document to create more focused pdfs (i.e. remove all the items, weapons, enhancement system and put it in it's own supplement with the machinery). OR any other ideas.

Request: Alright, this is the big one and one I should have done awhile ago. I need a listing of the contributers to the project. Please read the rules and post on the Avatar D20 Project Contributors Role Call thread. The date for the official release is set as Thursday March 13th after 1pm EST (that's my birthday!!!). If you absolutely require the pdf before that date feel free to send me an email at [email protected] with "Avatar D20 PDF Request" in the subject line and state your reasoning. Thank you for your patience.

- Lord Tataraus

[Mephibosheth]

Clarification: Are the prestige classes from the original bending thread (Disciple of Healing Waters and Dai Li Agent) to be included in the pdf? The website does not include them and I don't know if that is because they were overlooked by accident or on purpose, it won't take long to include them, but the pdf is currently 74 pages long and I'd like to keep the size down.

The PrC's aren't on the website for the same reason the version 1 benders and the warrior base classes aren't on the website: I'm lazy and busy (not sure if that's possible, but it's true). They should be included in the PDF, and will be included in the website once I get around to updating.

Poll: I have decided that it would be best to split up the project amongst a number of documents instead of one huge one. There are a number of reasons for this, 1: the pdf is currently ~500KB as the printable version (not the high quality color one), 2: The pdf is quite long and it might be cumbersome to navigate throughout the whole thing to find what you're looking for and multiple documents might make referencing a bit easier, 3: I can publish the pdf right now in its current incarnation instead of making you wait another few days or weeks to have everything included. So, my poll is twofold:

Yes or No: should I split up the project into multiple pdfs, publishing the core of the project now?

If I do split up the project what would the best organization of the supplements be? Individual forms compendium, Creatures and Opponents, Machinery, and Variants (currently only the core of the project - benders v2 and Eighth's monk and ranger - are included). Or should I mix them into one or a couple supplements. Or should I split up the current document to create more focused pdfs (i.e. remove all the items, weapons, enhancement system and put it in it's own supplement with the machinery). OR any other ideas.

I have no problem splitting it into multiple PDF's. I think that there should be two or three PDF's - one for base classes, PrC's, skills, and feats and a second for creatures, machinery, items, etc. If you're going to include any iconic character builds (which I doubt), perhaps put those and some example forms in a third PDF.

Edit: I'm planning on taking some time tomorrow to do a few seed rewrites to clarify things that I've noticed during the playtesting and remove some unnecessary features left over from earlier versions. Look for them soon.

Mephibosheth

[Colt]

Poll: I have decided that it would be best to split up the project amongst a number of documents instead of one huge one. There are a number of reasons for this, 1: the pdf is currently ~500KB as the printable version (not the high quality color one), 2: The pdf is quite long and it might be cumbersome to navigate throughout the whole thing to find what you're looking for and multiple documents might make referencing a bit easier, 3: I can publish the pdf right now in its current incarnation instead of making you wait another few days or weeks to have everything included. So, my poll is twofold:

Yes or No: should I split up the project into multiple pdfs, publishing the core of the project now?

If you want I could go through and bookmark the PDF. I've seen that used very effectively on long PDFs to make them more manageable. It simply gives you a sidebar when you open it that has "Links" to individual pages. You can even create hierarchical bookmarks, where it would be sorted first by chapter, then you could open the chapter 2 folder and have all the classes bookmarked, then just click to the one you want and it'll jump right to it. It wont help with the file size, but it might make it more manageable. I've seen some people go so far as to even bookmark each feat.

[Mephibosheth]

A couple of quick things:

First, I support bookmarks in the PDF. They really do make using PDF's immeasurably easier, especially long ones.

Second, does anyone have any comments on my impediment system (proposed above)? If its unacceptable and people want to work on a system for disabling specific limbs, I'm happy to start working on that, but I think that this system is more flexible, can easily be flavored to represent limb loss (as seen above), and fits better within the d20 paradigm. What says the community?

Now, here are some seed re-writes that have been deemed necessary at various times.

Firebender Seeds

Fire Kick (Template)
Base DC: 5

Spoiler

Show

By using a series of quick kicks to propel his Fire Blast, a firebender can greatly increase the range of his abilities.
• Applications: Applying this seed to a Fire Blast doubles the firebenders effective bending range for the purpose of that Fire Blast. Note that this template cannot be applied to any form that cannot be performed with the feet (such as by applying another template involving a body part or when stuck in a waterbender’s Steady Stance).

The idea here was to increase its utility, especially at low levels where it's often easier just to bump the DC of the blast in order to increase its range without applying the template.

Fire in the Stomach
Base DC: 15
In this case, the concern was that the firebender's Endure Elements class ability makes this seed redundant. While I disagree that it's completely redundant, the class ability certainly makes this seed less attractive. Instead of altering the seed, I propose we alter the class ability to simply grant the +4 bonus on saves against cold weather and eliminate the "exists comfortably in conditions between 0 and 100 degrees Fahrenheit without having to make Fortitude saves" portion of the ability. This leaves room for both ability and seed to coexist. Fire in the Stomach probably still won't be popular, but at least it's worth it in certain circumstances.

Earthbender Seeds

Immobilize
Base DC: 30

Spoiler

Show

Stomping the ground aggressively, the Earthbender causes packed clay or stone to burst upwards, trapping the target creature.
• Applications: Sheets of crystal, stone, or packed clay burst from the ground and wrap around a single medium-sized or smaller target within the earthbender’s bending range. The target must make a Reflex save or be immobilized. An immobilized target may not move, attack, bend, or take any action that requires movement, but is not considered helpless. Those who fail the Reflex save can make a Strength check or Escape Artist check as a full-round action to break free. They can also be dug out by dealing 50 points of damage to the earth. Increasing the Earthbending DC by +5 for each size category above medium allows an Earthbender can capture larger creatures. An Earthbender may capture 1 additional creature for every 10 by which her Earthbending check exceeds the DC.

With the introduction of the rules governing immobilization (found at the end of the waterbender and earthbender write-ups), the two different applications of this seed became unnecessary. This is simply a re-write to reflect this change. I also increased the DC, making it more difficult to pull off.

Rift
Base DC: 35
I propose eliminating this seed, replacing it with a flavor note in the Immobilize seed indicating that the earthbender can trap an opponent in the ground instead of bringing the earth up to meet the opponent. The seed does almost exactly the same thing as Immobilize.

I hope these changes are acceptable. Let me know.

Mephibosheth

[Eighth_Seraph]

I completely agree with everything you've laid down, Meph, except for the Rift seed. I propose that we eliminate all crunch text in the seed and instead allow the seed to make fissures in the earth that stay open, like what Avatar Kyoshi did to make Kyoshi Island. I was going to make Gaya's Mantle, a form that involved bringing lava up to just a few feet underground, then making fissures throughout the earth and using Lava Flows to bring the lava up on land. Then I realized that 1) Fissure can't actually do that as written, and 2) We never resolved Lava Flows. I take it that you put it on the back burner 'til we get some precedent from the issue to see what it can or can't do?

Poll: Etc.

Bookmarking sounds like a great idea to me, with my limited knowledge of pdf-making. If the file size is still too much, then splitting it up into multiple pdf seems the best alternative. As for how to split it up, I think that this is a great opportunity to break open to PHB or setting-based splatbook and organize it that way. All the classic sections: Adaptations to base classes, new classes, added rules for the new 'magic' system, equipment, creatures, important people, possible plot hooks, setting locations. We can probably get started on those last two by now.

[Pirate_King]

Say "yes" to bookmarking. very helpful

polishing,

A couple of quick things:

Firebender Seeds

Fire Kick (Template)
Base DC: 5

Spoiler

Show

By using a series of quick kicks to propel his Fire Blast, a firebender can greatly increase the range of his abilities.
• Applications: Applying this seed to a Fire Blast doubles the firebenders effective bending range for the purpose of that Fire Blast. Note that this template cannot be applied to any form that cannot be performed with the feet (such as by applying another template involving a body part or when stuck in a waterbender’s Steady Stance).

The idea here was to increase its utility, especially at low levels where it's often easier just to bump the DC of the blast in order to increase its range without applying the template.

I suggested that firekick allowed the firebender to bend without needing his hands free, so long as the form could be performed with the foot (in otherwords, not firewhip), though the flat range increase does make more sense than the original DC decrease it applied before.

anyone for the bending skill in people without levels in bender? I think a modified version of Eighth's form learning system would work well with it.

I wouldn't try to mess too much with lava; we see it when Roku goes all awesome, but he never manipulates it directly. He suppresses the fire from the volcano in avatar and the firelord, probably through a combination of earthbending and the quench application of intensity, and he melts a lot of rock in, what is it, the avatar state? Even when we saw firebending causing eruptions, it's just a well placed explosion, really. No one moves lava like a waterbender moves water. But I don't imagine anyone could manipulate lava in any way other than creating it with firebending and altering its flow with earthbending.

EDIT:
forgot about skill points. Were we going to equalize those? I think it'd make sense.

also, I was going to bring it up in playtesting, but should fire/water whip be considered a light weapon for TWF? On the one hand, it makes it pretty powerful, on the other, it is seen done on the show.

also also, it should be added to the quickened bending sidebar that a failed attempt makes the seed/form fail, rather than just count as the original action. Similarly, a distinction should (or maybe not) be made between seeds that can be improved by adding the DC and seeds that are automatically improved by beating the DC by x.

[Lord Tataraus]

I strongly urge all contributers of this project that have not yet signed into the role call to do so now. I will not be accepted any more names after 1:00pm tomorrow EST. I know there are many more contributers than have signed up already, even if all you've done is through out suggestions and add to discussions, sign in and be recognized, this project could not have become what it is without you.

Sign into the role call here. You may also click the banner in my sig to go to the role call.

- Lord Tataraus

[Colt]

Out of curiosity, why don't Earthbenders have a stone shard seed? Equivalent to Ice Shard for waterbenders. It would make sense to have something like this, including the ranged pin.

[Ceiling009]

It seems that they (earthbenders) rarely if ever used sharpened stones. Most of the fights earthbenders are, they toss, punch, or kick bolders, as ranged projectiles or use a variant of earth spike really to hit people. Actually, is there an earth spike type seed? Or is it column?