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  1. - Top - End - #451
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    The reason there's no earth shards seed is because no earthbender in the show has ever been seen using one, at least that I can remember. If there is a scene wherein an earthbender uses shards, post it up and I'll happily draft a seed.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    yeah, a shard thing doesn't really fit the earthbender mindset, except maybe the dai li. Even they are a bit subtle for cutting people to ribbons, though. Also, there's no need to give them a ranged pin with their various immobilizing capabilities.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Well, the Dai Li have a ranged pin, but normal earthbenders wouldn't.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    From playtesting and thinking (shock horror), I have realized something.

    Benders need more skill points.

    Let's take an Earthbender. He gets 2 skill points per level. One goes into earthbending, the other goes into knowledge (bending) You may think that this is a bad example because a bender would have more skill points because of Int.
    However this is the priority of Ability Scores:
    Wis
    Con (or Str)
    Str (or Con)
    Dex (for Ranged attack and AC)
    Then Int or Cha.

    A bender simply doesn't have enough skill points to use other utility skills like spot.

    Most classes skill points are built on the assumption that you can still function without them (I.E. A fighter still hits stuff, a wizard still zaps stuff), bender classes are built on the assumption that you need two specific skills to function.

    So I propose giving the bending classes an extra 1 or 2 skill points per level. I don't want to keep lowering the spot modifiers in the playtest campaign

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Theoretically, all benders should have 4+int for skill points I think, as before, they were more like warlocks, and bending had nothing to do with skill. Now since bending entails skill point usage, all benders should have 4+int, otherwise they would kinda be... well gimped.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    No objections here.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth View Post
    If there is a scene wherein an earthbender uses shards, post it up and I'll happily draft a seed.
    just watched crossroads of destiny again the other night, the Dai Li shoot the fingers of their gloves. perhaps add it as a seed for that PRC?
    Last edited by Pirate_King; 2008-03-21 at 04:07 PM.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Pirate_King View Post
    just watched crossroads of destiny again the other night, the Dai Li shoot the fingers of their gloves. perhaps add it as a seed for that PRC?
    When I wrote the Dai Li up I took that into account with their class feature Grasp of the Dai Li, because they're able to shoot their stony fists/fingers/what have you, they are allowed to add precision damage on those attacks due to their pin-point accuracy with them.

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  9. - Top - End - #459
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I have refined my bending for non-bending classes a bit more, to reflect those who have the skill but do not have the mastery of the bending class (like katara at the beginning of the series, or maybe haru from his first appearance)

    Any given bending skill is a cross-class skill if the character does not have levels in the appropriate bending class.

    The skill grants the appropriate manipulate ability (including freeze/melt for water) and a 1d6 blast (though it incurs a -4 penalty to the attack roll without the appropriate bending study or exotic weapon proficiency feat).

    Features that grant bonuses or penalties, such as the child of the sun/moon affect this skill. In addition to the synergy from knowledge (bending), 5 or more ranks in any other bending skill* grants another +2 synergy bonus.

    Bending range is 30 feet, save DC 10 + 1/3 character level + the character's wisdom modifier.

    Seeds: For each level that the character adds ranks to this skill, she may learn 1 seed, the maximum seeds known being her half wisdom modifier, rounded up. (Ideally, the character would have access to a teacher or scroll to learn these seeds.)

    Should the character choose to take a level in the appropriate bending class, the seeds learned before taking the level do not stack with the class's seeds known. Effectively, the character cannot gain new seeds until the class's seeds known is greater than the seeds she knew before taking levels in the bending class.

    Example: a level 5 monk with 18 wis has been learning a bit of airbending on the side, and knows 2 seeds. She wants to expand this ability, and decides to multi-class to airbender. She gains all the other abilities of an airbender, but will not learn any more seeds until she gains 4 levels in the class.

    Bottom line - no character will ever know more than 11 seeds without the extra seed feat.

    *I added this clause for the non-canon purposes of learning multiple bending skills, but I decided to post this here rather than the non-canon thread because the bulk of the implications are for npc benders or characters who want a bit of bending ability without multi-classing.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Do you realize that "defense bonus" isn't explained at all in the classes?
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    That's because it's already explained in the D20 SRD. I think there's a link; if there isn't, just google d20 SRD and it's one of the first things up.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    ??? I didn't know that the SRD had rules regarding the class features of non-WotC classes. Unless I'm missing something very obvious (I don't think I am).
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I've been meaning to add a page that explains which variant rules are recommended/assumed in the system. Maybe I'll get around to that one of these days...
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    So what alternate rules are you using and what can be done to adapt it to the no variant rules set? You should really include these things.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    You should explain what the fire resistance ability does, all abilities should be explained, even obvious ones (e.g. a barbarian's DR)

    You should also change Freeze/Melt to Freeze/Thaw

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235 View Post
    ??? I didn't know that the SRD had rules regarding the class features of non-WotC classes. Unless I'm missing something very obvious (I don't think I am).
    It's right here in the SRD, if you need a link.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I found it now that I knew it was a variant rule set.

    And thank you Shades, that's what I was trying to say. Always explain all of your class abilities. Especially when you assume variant rules that not everyone uses. In fact, you should make the classes with the assumption that no variants are used, and if the class works better with one, explain that in the "general" section of the class or system.

    EDIT: You should change freeze/melt to match the table in some fashion. Freeze/Thaw is probably best.

    EDIT 2: For the tentacle seed (water), does the use of a tentacle replace one of your attacks per round? Or is it in addition? You should clarify. I have more issues that need clarification, but I have other places to be. Later then.
    Last edited by dman11235; 2008-04-09 at 05:36 PM.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I've added a page to the website that outlines what variant rules are used and/or recommended in the system. The page also contains a short paragraph about adaptation. I hope that clarifies everything. If it falls short, please let me know.

    Now to address specific issues:

    Quote Originally Posted by Shades of Gray
    You should explain what the fire resistance ability does.
    Done

    Quote Originally Posted by Shades of Gray
    You should also change Freeze/Melt to Freeze/Thaw
    Why? Isn't it effectively the same thing? Note I'm not necessarily opposed, I just want to hear the reasoning. It just seems unnecessarily nitpicky to me.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    In fact, you should make the classes with the assumption that no variants are used, and if the class works better with one, explain that in the "general" section of the class or system.
    Hopefully the page I added about variant rules addresses this concern, especially the brief paragraph on adaptation. If you have any more concerns, let us know.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    For the tentacle seed (water), does the use of a tentacle replace one of your attacks per round? Or is it in addition? You should clarify. I have more issues that need clarification, but I have other places to be. Later then.
    Done. It takes a full-round action to control and maintain the tentacles. Thanks a lot for pointing out unclear rules. What are the other issues that need clarification?

    I hope that addresses everything.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    You say that vitality and wound points are not assumed in the creation, but are used for the Disciple of Healing Waters (Sense the Lifestream).

    Also, I will get on the other clarifications (waterbender first, then I'll go through the rest) in just a bit.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    That's true. I forgot about the Disciple of the Healing Waters. I'm not quite sure how we're going to deal with that. I'll have to think about it. Thanks for pointing that out.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Something I've noticed from the Autumn Twilight playtest: it's never stated how long the +4 DC bump on Healing Waters lasts. The duration of the encounter? The rest of the day?

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Hmmm, after looking at the New Paizo Material (alpha test); they're re doing the skill system. The current alpha skill system involves Class Skills that a character chooses to train in getting an automatic full character level + 3 + mods; while cross class have half full character level + 3, and non-trained skills have basically no character level + mods. This means that, as long as a bender chooses their bending as a trained class skill (I don't see why they wouldn't), they are automatically maxed ranked in it per level. And so far, every 2 levels you can choose to train a new skill... So I'm wondering, do you think the current bending system would work without any serious tweaks in Paizo's Pathfinder?

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    First off, I'd like to point out that in the show when they failed, they did not become fatigued. However, it might be that they didn't fail to initiate it, it's hard to tell (only instances I can remember are when Aang tries to learn Earthbending and when Aang and Katara try to learn the Water Whip).

    Now, on to the WB.

    You should say something that allows the Water Blast to be counted as a weapon for certain effects (weapon focus, spells (not GMWeapon though), etc).

    Why isn't there a way to use Freeze/Melt while using another seed? Seems to me that they should be able to.

    Water Whip shouldn't rely on str for attack/damage. Try wis instead. You aren't actually holding the whip now, are you?

    Ice Shards: Would it be possible to coat a weapon you hold with ice?

    Also, you need to state how most of these seeds react with damage reduction.

    Water Shield: Ignoring for a moment that facing no longer exists, this should not be a deflection bonus. It should be a cover bonus. It should also be a much lower bonus. Same goes for the hemisphere.

    For templates, you should say that they only work with seeds mentioned, or that they work with all seeds, or something.

    Rise with the Tides: you neglect to say what period of time that changing of altitude happens. Add in "per round" after 20ft.

    Water Walk: for surf, you should add in a clause that allows for more creatures to join you. Maybe +5 DC per extra medium creature, a large counts as two medium, etc. Because I can totally see this happening. Also, add in a way to increase speed and decrease time spent concentrating.

    Propel: put in a minimum of one round to launch, otherwise you can launch a boat in -6 seconds eventually. For Navigate, you should refer to the boat in terms of size categories, you should refer to it in terms of....whatever boats are termed in (check the storm book, or PHB under boats). Size categories are for creatures.

    Liquid Armor: So...do these benefits only apply to bending attacks? They shouldn't... Also, you should include a way to increase to AC bonus. Ice Armor: does this count as armor for things like monks? You should also add in a way to increase max dex/decrease ACP (at least make it masterwork).

    Wave: Facing doesn't exist anymore.

    Golem: how can a waterbender control earth? I think you messed up a copy/paste. Also, does it use the bender's wis for strength, period? Just say that, instead of singling out attack. Also, you reference earthbender near the end. Under reach, you say they can increase the hardness... For Enhancement, do you have a maximum of your wisdom modifier to allocate throughout the stats? Or can each stat have a bonus of up to your wisdom modifier? Ex.: you have wis 21, and create a medium golem. It has 21 str and 10 dex (no mental stats). You up the DC by 20 and make it, allowing +5 for each str and dex? Or can you only give it +5 str and then no dex? Also, do I have that str thing wrong? Also, add in a clause that allows quicker controlling.

    Bend Plants: why is the DC not like it says at the top of the bending? Entwine: "...control of a larger or larger...". Also, have it just use your wis as the str of the plants.

    That's all I got for water.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth View Post
    Why? Isn't it effectively the same thing? Note I'm not necessarily opposed, I just want to hear the reasoning. It just seems unnecessarily nitpicky to me.
    Mephibosheth
    Well, it's a matter of taste, doesn't melt sound like a firbender seed? You can melt solid rock, however you can't thaw anything but liquids.

    On that note, could waterbenders bend any liquids?

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I believe that you can, as long as they are water based (so no olive oil or grease). Juice, milk, blood, etc you could. Even mud...
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Alright! Thanks a lot for the comments. Note that in my responses I’m using the classes as presented on the website at avatar.d20.googlepages.com. I’m not sure if there are discrepancies between this version and the version at the beginning of the thread. I’ll try to find some time to go through and reconcile the two.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    You should say something that allows the Water Blast to be counted as a weapon for certain effects (weapon focus, spells (not GMWeapon though), etc).
    Yeah, you’re right on this one. I’ll make the change, most likely on all of the bending Blast abilities.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    Why isn't there a way to use Freeze/Melt while using another seed? Seems to me that they should be able to.
    There are two ways to use Melt/Freeze in combination with bending seeds. The first would be to combine it with the seed directly by increasing the DC as explained in the bending overview. The second is to simply increase the DC for Melt/Freeze by 10 or 15 and use the ability as a move or swift action (respectively).

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    Water Whip shouldn't rely on str for attack/damage. Try wis instead. You aren't actually holding the whip now, are you?
    Actually, you are.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    Ice Shards: Would it be possible to coat a weapon you hold with ice?
    I don’t see why not, though I’d probably rule it a combination form of Ice Shards and Manipulate. I don’t think it needs to be a specific application of the Ice Shards seed. Plus, we never see anyone doing that in the show, which is the benchmark for what gets included in the classes (in most cases).

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    Also, you need to state how most of these seeds react with damage reduction.
    In most cases, the specific form states what type of damage it deals (and therefore how it interacts with damage reduction. For example, Ice Shards deals piercing and cold damage. I’m sure there are some instances where we missed it, though.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    Water Shield: Ignoring for a moment that facing no longer exists, this should not be a deflection bonus. It should be a cover bonus. It should also be a much lower bonus. Same goes for the hemisphere.
    I don’t have a problem with reducing the bonus or changing it to a cover or shield bonus. Also, the rules are based on line of effect rather than facing.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    For templates, you should say that they only work with seeds mentioned, or that they work with all seeds, or something.
    Templates are explained in the bending overview. Specific application of template forms is probably to be left up to the DM or to a DM/player agreement. In order to maintain the flexibility of the system, we put a lot of trust in DM/player agreement and DM adjudication of some of the more specific details. It is a feature of the system that has its benefits and drawbacks but allows us to more accurately represent the show, imo.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    Rise with the Tides: you neglect to say what period of time that changing of altitude happens. Add in "per round" after 20ft.
    Done.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    Water Walk: for surf, you should add in a clause that allows for more creatures to join you. Maybe +5 DC per extra medium creature, a large counts as two medium, etc. Because I can totally see this happening. Also, add in a way to increase speed and decrease time spent concentrating.
    Yeah, this seed seems pretty redundant given the Ski class ability. I’m not quite sure why it’s still there. Perhaps I’ll make some changes to the seed to make it less redundant.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    Propel: put in a minimum of one round to launch, otherwise you can launch a boat in -6 seconds eventually. For Navigate, you should refer to the boat in terms of size categories, you should refer to it in terms of....whatever boats are termed in (check the storm book, or PHB under boats). Size categories are for creatures.
    Good call on the time required to launch. I’ll make the change.

    It’s true that multiple sourcebooks have rules for ship maneuverability. However, we wanted the system to remain as accessible as possible and so decided to devise our own rules for ship movement based on OGL sources instead of relying on Stormwrack or the Arms and Equipment Guide, which might not be available to everyone. Incidentally, both of these books use size categories for their ships.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    Liquid Armor: So...do these benefits only apply to bending attacks? They shouldn't... Also, you should include a way to increase to AC bonus. Ice Armor: does this count as armor for things like monks? You should also add in a way to increase max dex/decrease ACP (at least make it masterwork).
    Good points all. I’ll make the changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    Wave: Facing doesn't exist anymore.
    That’s true, but the face of an object (i.e. how long/tall it is on a given side) is still a part of the rules set.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    Golem: how can a waterbender control earth? I think you messed up a copy/paste. Also, does it use the bender's wis for strength, period? Just say that, instead of singling out attack. Also, you reference earthbender near the end. Under reach, you say they can increase the hardness... For Enhancement, do you have a maximum of your wisdom modifier to allocate throughout the stats? Or can each stat have a bonus of up to your wisdom modifier? Ex.: you have wis 21, and create a medium golem. It has 21 str and 10 dex (no mental stats). You up the DC by 20 and make it, allowing +5 for each str and dex? Or can you only give it +5 str and then no dex? Also, do I have that str thing wrong? Also, add in a clause that allows quicker controlling.
    Whoops! Missed that one. I’ll clarify and make the changes.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    Bend Plants: why is the DC not like it says at the top of the bending? Entwine: "...control of a larger or larger...". Also, have it just use your wis as the str of the plants.
    The DC is a normal save DC for a bending seed. The Strength and Escape Artist DC’s are based on the Entangle spell. As far as the Entwine application goes, I think the language is intended to indicate that the bender controls larger plants or a larger number of smaller plants. I’ll clarify. Finally, the seed does just use your Wisdom modifer for adjudicating grapples.

    Quote Originally Posted by Shades of gray
    On that note, could waterbenders bend any liquids?
    Dman11235 has the right on this one, imo. We’ve seen waterbenders bending perfume, soup, slurry, and mud, and manipulating people’s bodies by bending blood. I think it’s safe to extrapolate it to any water-based liquid.

    Hope that helps. I’ll make the changes as soon as I get a chance.

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  27. - Top - End - #477
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Going in order...

    sweet.

    Ah, I guess I forgot about combining seeds.

    That's a new one. I keep remembering when Aang and Katara were trying to learn it, and I remember seeing them control the whip with bending rather than their hands. I could be wrong though, but if I'm not there appears to be a discrepancy within the show. For the record I don't remember seeing that screen shot in the show though (is it in the North Pole when Katara was trying to prove to the master that she could learn?)

    Alrighty then

    That doesn't say how it reacts with DR (though smart people like us could figure it out). That says what kind of damage it does. You need to say that seeds like this suffer from DR like normal (this can be taken care of by the weapon stuff in water blast and seed overview).

    Alrighty

    So say that in the bending overview. I can (right now) see people claiming that the Pressure template can only be applied to Water Blast.

    Done

    Try changing it so that you can form a "boat" out of ice (for surf) and change ski to include the clause that you have to keep moving at at least half speed with average maneuverability. Also add in a way to allow multiple people to stand on water with the water walk part.

    They do? That seems silly. Well, in that case there is no difference between a fishing trolley and an aircraft carrier. That's why I wanted a different size determination factor.

    OK

    Where does it explain those? Other than fluff ways. And walls don't count. Well, I guess it's fine, but I saw "face" and thought the worst.

    Okay

    What I meant was, use your wis as the plant's strength score. It just makes sense (and avoids any confusion, like what damage they do (which is currently 0 due to lack of strength) and eliminates some words, improving readability). This same logic went into the golem and wherever else it was needed.

    EDIT: I will get on the others as soon as I can. I just needed the WB cleared up first cause I'm playing one...

    When I have time between my project and other PEACHes I will go through the other benders and then the feats, then PrCs, then everything else.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    About the Water whip, that's the only time (the picture) where we see her actually hold the whip; often times it's a floating string of water, or almost a tentacle appear from a source of water; actually as the show progresses it becomes a really big tentacle like thing (season 2, the earth king episode is a good place to see this) where it's basically just addition to her arms. I think making the water whip attack use wis instead of str, or dex seems perfectly in order. Remember she did hit pretty precisely with that whip, and with a low score in either str or dex, Katara would have had a hard time doing so.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    why would you imply that katara has a low dex?
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  30. - Top - End - #480
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    BardGuy

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I'm not really implying low dex; but it means if water whip used Wis to hit, versus dex, it's probably a dead on hit. For her to use a water whip like that, she would have to have weapon finesse, and it she doesn't quite seem weapon handy, save for any of her water forms (she did punch Pakku sort of).

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