[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[dman11235]

She does seem to be able to control her forms very well (high wis), but her physical movements don't indicate very high dex or str. Decent dex maybe, but not high enough to do what she's done with Water Whip.

[Shades of Gray]

On the table for Waterbender it lists Heat/Chill, however the seed is called Freeze/Melt, and a form of the seed called chill. Either their should be a heat form, or the seed on the table should be changed to Freeze/Melt (I still prefer Freeze/Thaw )

[Pirate_King]

I thought it had been changed to that at some point? meh... semantics

Should there be a subclause that makes a bending class an exception to the rules for multiclassed monks? the classes seem similar in fluff, if not in actual ability, and I think a character could continue to gain monk levels after multi-classing to a bender.

[Shades of Gray]

I believe Eight_Seraph's monk doesn't have the restriction, and it is assumed we are using that (Jenshin is passive style Avatar d20 monk/ Firbender not PHB Monk/ Firebender.

[Pirate_King]

Jenshin was actually the reason I brought it up

[dman11235]

What ability is used for determining blast attack bonus? Wisdom (like it should be)? You don't specify.

[Mephibosheth]

A bending blast is a ranged attack. So, Dexterity.

[dman11235]

I have idea to fix up Water Whip. And you still haven't answered my question of when that screen shot was taken. Anyways, how about using wis as your str score for it? Like, how the tentacles and plants are done, except with, well, a whip.

[Mephibosheth]

The screenshot was from The Waterbending Master (season 1, episode 18), when Katara used her water whip to antagonize Master Paku and goad him into fighting her. The technique Aang and Katara use in The Waterbending Scroll (season 1, episode 9) is called the Single Water Whip, and isn't explicitly included in the system. If I remember correctly, they don't use the Single Water Whip after that episode, prefering to use whips that are connected to their arms and wielded in a more traditional whip-like manner.

I'm on the fence about allowing the Waterbender to use Wisdom for attacks with a Water Whip. It isn't really that big of a change, so I could see hopping on board.

On the other hand, I have a few objections that are causing me to lean against the change. First, the show describes a direct link between a bender's bending ability and his or her martial prowess. The bending disciplines are presented as a combination of spiritual/mental prowess and martial training. Benders aren't wizards, they're closer to monks in their outlook and ability sets. It makes sense, given this system, for physical ability scores to remain important. Second, I disagree that Katara and the other waterbenders don't show high dexterity scores in the show. Watching the fight between Paku and Katara or between Katara/Aang and Zuko/Azula in The Crossroads of Destiny or even Katara dancing in The Headband, she shows a impressive reflexes, speed, and body control. She (an acknowledged waterbending master) even explicitly claims that waterbenders have good reflexes (read: high Dexterity) in Bitter Work when she tells Aang that he "[has] the reflexes of a waterbending master" (implying that good reflexes are characteristic of waterbenders). Finally, I think the change sets a bad precedent for the system as a whole. We've intentionally worked to ensure that there's a degree of MAD built into the system, and this change sets a precedent for eliminating physical ability scores as important for "to hit" rolls.

That said, I'm definitely open to arguments in favor of the change and will gladly make the change if that's the consensus.

Hope that helps.

Mephibosheth

[dman11235]

That's when I thought it was. Don't remember her using Water Whip though. It's been too long I guess. Oh, wait, I remember now, it was before the fight actually started.

But can reflexes not be a part of the perception of the world around them and thus allow avoidance and reaction? See the PHB monk, wis to AC.

Even if they were using the whip in a whip like fashion, wouldn't it still not be a function of the physical attributes, since without the mental part (controlling the water), the water wouldn't do anything, and just fall down.

Now, the physical scores would still matter for stuff like AC and the blast attack. And Combat Reflexes (which any waterbender worth their salt will have). At least though you need wis to damage with the whip since it does not make sense that a liquid will get you str to damage, and without any bonus damage (also does it suffer from DR? That might just make it near worthless) it will be completely terrible compared to the tentacle (also, DR yes or no?).

EDIT: I understand the need for MAD. Really, I do. I'm just trying to make it all make sense and be balanced. MAD can be a good thing (see ranger), but it can also be a very bad thing (see PHB monk). I will try to preserve the feel of the class as much as possible (I always do).

[Pirate_King]

I think water whip should stick with str(or dex if weapon finesse is taken)Your arguments for wis are reasonable, but I think it's more balanced this way. Read the rest of the seed, wisdom is reflected in the clause that allows the waterbender to increase the range by 5ft and/or the damage die by a step by increasing the DC. Same deal with fire whip, wisdom enters in by the bonuses you can add to the whip outside it's normal whip stats; I'd say that's enough.

[Ceiling009]

I'm completely on board with Wis substituting for Str in terms of damage for water whip. Cause, for benders MAD would be Wis, Dex, and Con; so I agree that water whip is sort of getting the shaft in terms functionality later in game.

[dman11235]

But...how are you dealing damage with it? Do you add you str to damage like normal? If so, how is this happening? If wis gave bonus damage I could so the wis hardening the whip at just the right times and such. Dex can be placing the strike in the right spot (but that's a job for Shadowhand, if only the whip was a shadow hand weapon...).

And I see somebody beat me to this part. Wis to damage and all.

[Pirate_King]

creating a water whip that does d8 damage is a DC 22. also, the more levels in water bender you have, the better bonus you've got at the trip and disarm attempts, and the closer you are to using the capture ability with it. That fits perfectly with how water whip has been used in the show, more often to knock opponents over than to actually injure them, re: Katara's awesome water whipping in The Earth King. How does it get less functional at later levels? With all that, does it really need the extra few points of damage from adding wis instead of str or dex? Seriously, leave heavy damage dealing to earth and fire benders. Waterbenders don't end fights by bashing the crap out of their enemies, they neutralize their opponents, not pulverize. Though wisdom makes sense as a damage stat for how we've built these classes, it doesn't make sense with the water bending philosophy.

sorry I keep editing this post.

[dman11235]

Point. I take back my statement. I'd just like to be able to do damage though, is that so much to ask? To take advantage of the build?

Anyways, optimizing aside, I had another issue, but I can't remember what it was. It wasn't the DR one (though I need that one to be cleared up), it was something else.

[Pirate_King]

Point. I take back my statement. I'd just like to be able to do damage though, is that so much to ask? To take advantage of the build?

Anyways, optimizing aside, I had another issue, but I can't remember what it was. It wasn't the DR one (though I need that one to be cleared up), it was something else.

Play a Firebender Waterbenders are all about indirect damage, except when you build up stuff with ice shards...

I think your only other question was the blast attack bonus, to which the answer was dex, as any ranged attack.

[dman11235]

No, it was a new one. Gah I hate this, my mind's all wonky right now. I'm going though the class again and seeing if anything pops out at me. Tomorrow I will probably go over the airbender. If not, sometime soon.

EDIT: Maybe it was this: how does Deflect Attack work with stuff like FoB and TWF? Haste?

[Pirate_King]

I'm pretty sure Deflect Attack is only for ranged attacks, so FoB and TWF have no influence, either defensively or offensively. Haste, however, is an interesting thing to bring up. Maybe it could grant one more deflect attack opportunity?

[Mephibosheth]

Point. I take back my statement. I'd just like to be able to do damage though, is that so much to ask? To take advantage of the build?

If you really want to deal damage with a water whip, try working with your DM to allow combining Water Whip (DC 10) with Water Blast (DC 5, total DC 19) or Ice Shards (DC 10, total DC 24). Ultimately, though, I'm with Pirate King on this one. That's not what waterbenders are for. Waterbenders are all about immobilization (Steady Stance, Wave + Freeze, etc.) and battlefield control (Water Whip tripping, Tentacle, Bend Plants, etc).

Anyways, optimizing aside, I had another issue, but I can't remember what it was. It wasn't the DR one (though I need that one to be cleared up), it was something else.

I still maintain that the DR issue is addressed by specifying the type of damage dealt by a given attack. Just because the damage is caused by a whip of water rather than a whip of leather doesn't change the fact that it's still the same damage. If a character is hit by falling boulders, the rules don't specify that DR applies to that damage even though it does. Bludeoning/Piercing/Slashing are physical damage types, and DR applies regardless of the specific source.

Edit:

how does Deflect Attack work with stuff like FoB and TWF? Haste?

Two-Weapon Fighting is immaterial for the number of Deflect Attack attempts a bender has. It's based on iterative attacks because of BAB. Flurry of Blows and Haste are different. I would allow them to grant extra deflect attempts. I'll try to find some time to clarify this in the ability description. Note though that Haste only exists in one form in this setting (Chi Enhancing Tea). Nevertheless, it's best to be thorough!

[dman11235]

The fact is that people are stupid, and unless you say that it is a weapon they will assuming that you are being redundant (see Deadfall and Splinterbolt).

But since they do suffer from DR, how can one avoid DR with it? You obviously can't make it magical, so even DR/magic will hurt. Heck, DR of any sort other than damage type is a problem.

EDIT: I see that an edit answered this question.

[Mephibosheth]

The fact is that people are stupid, and unless you say that it is a weapon they will assuming that you are being redundant (see Deadfall and Splinterbolt).

No idea what Deadfall and Splinterbolt are. I'll try to find some time to clarify.

But since they do suffer from DR, how can one avoid DR with it? You obviously can't make it magical, so even DR/magic will hurt. Heck, DR of any sort other than damage type is a problem.

Except DR X/magic doesn't exist in the setting. Few (if any) of the creatures in the setting even have DR and none of the item enhancements or special items grant any type of DR other than X/- or possibly X/(damage type). Don't forget, magic doesn't exist in this setting.

[dman11235]

I get it now! Hmm, I'll have to adapt it somehow.

[Pirate_King]

No idea what Deadfall and Splinterbolt are. I'll try to find some time to clarify.

splinter bolt's a druid spell.

[dman11235]

Same with Deadfall btw. Oh, and Deadfall is one of the most overpowered spells of existence, at least comparatively. It doesn't even follow the DMG spell creation, it's created like a 9th+ level spell but is only 8th level.

[Darkbane]

Both Deadfall and Splinterbolt are found in Spell Compendium, as far as I know.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Hey, all. I decided to pop in for a little bit as long as I had some time over the weekend.

Anywho, Dman, I'm currently playing two waterbenders: one in a often-interrupted Savage Tides campaign and another as a semi-NPC in my friend's PbP. The first of them, Silas Kuri, would interest you in terms of a damage-based waterbender. Y'see, waterbenders have, from what I can tell, the greatest potential off all the bending classes to make astoundingly inventive forms that can deal damage in all sorts of ways. The basic tools of the trade here are Ice Shards, Water Blast, and Tentacle. Mist opens up all sorts of possibilities, too, as does Water Whip. Check out the bending forms compendium, there's at least a half-dozen very interesting and powerful forms there for waterbenders.

Remember, everyone, that the central point of the bending system is the amount of room we have to be inventive. For example,

• If your opponents run and take cover behind a 30-foot wall of stone and lock the reinforced iron door behind them; any waterbender worth his salt could spontaneously convert the Ice Shards seed into an area-of-effect by making a deal with the DM to cut down damage in exchange for area and changing it from an attack roll to a Reflex Save for half damage.
• If there's an opponent hiding behind a tower shield for full cover, dump some water his way, a few feet to the right, then bring it all back in a flurry of ice shards, impaling him to the inside of his own shield.
• Archer rogue with the sneak attack range-expansion feat closing in? Take one for the team and overbend to extend your water whip to some 45 feat in length and freeze the bowstring but also use the whip's momentum to have a frozen shard of it shank the guy in the head.
• If you're party is set against a single outrageously powerful creature with a ton of hitpoints and durability, try doing a reverse Octopus Form on it. That is, instead of surrounding yourself with tentacles, make a cluster of tentacles around the target; two to trip each round, the rest to pound the thing into oblivion. Toss in Improved Trip if you really want to have your DM tearing his hair.
• Forced to travel on your own as a waterbender? Learn to use mist and Feel the Flow (lake sense) in unison. If you're ambushed and can't run, fill the room with mist, but combine Ice Shards with Manipulate to have the shards come from a different direction each round. It'll cost you some damage-dealing potential in the beginning, but it'll keep you alive.

The possibilities are truly endless; it's just a matter of creativity. However, there are certain seeds that simply weren't designed to do damage right from the get-go; such as Mist, Steady Stance, Feel the Flow, etc. And a battlefield-control waterbender will generally be easier to build than a damage-based one. And be more effective in the long-run, I would imagine. That was the idea when I transferred the seeds from Meph's original system, anyway.

[Ceiling009]

Two questions; one was brought up in the form compendium thread, I'll re-bring it up here, since I don't think anyone can move it...

"Can you stack blasts?" as in stack three blasts, per blast making that 25 DC check every time? For matter, could you stack Water Whip at least twice to get that double water whip effect?

"Is there a Form Mastery feat?" I thought there was one? Or are we missing some proposed feats lost through the largeness of the thread? Cause I really thought Form Mastery was a feat... though it did something like this...

Form Mastery [General]
Prerequisites: Must be able to bend
Benefit: You lower the base DC of a specific form by 5, but the DC can never be lower than 5.

Or something like that?

[Mephibosheth]

"Can you stack blasts?" as in stack three blasts, per blast making that 25 DC check every time? For matter, could you stack Water Whip at least twice to get that double water whip effect?

I'd say this is the sort of thing that individual DM's and players should work together to figure out. If I were DM, I'd probably say no unless presented with a very convincing argument. I can see this easily getting out of control. Firing 3 blasts in a single attack (if stacked blasts are allowed) would only be DC 23 (5+5+5+4+4), which just seems too easy to me.

"Is there a Form Mastery feat?" I thought there was one? Or are we missing some proposed feats lost through the largeness of the thread? Cause I really thought Form Mastery was a feat... though it did something like this...

Form Mastery [General]
Prerequisites: Must be able to bend
Benefit: You lower the base DC of a specific form by 5, but the DC can never be lower than 5.

Or something like that?

There are two feats that might fit this bill. Focused Bending gives a bender a +4 bonus to Bending skill checks to execute one specific seed or a form that uses that seed. Template Mastery reduces the DC of a selected template by 5.

[Ceiling009]

I just thought there was one; so that a bender could pretty much have a signature form. Or you could call that feat that... but; it's okay I guess.

I also did that math, I think, and at level 2, it's quite possible to get a guaranteed 28 against any DC involving blast, if you take focused bending (blast).

Oh yeah, another question, since I went and re-read the Waterbender, does Freeze/Melt actually change the damage type on blast or damaging to forms to cold and adds a d4 (or should that be a d6 now since all blasts are standardized), or does it just add an extra die of cold damage?

[Mephibosheth]

It just adds an extra d4 of cold damage. Most of the damage from Waterbending forms and Water Blasts seems to be a result of manipulating the surface tension of the water to make it "harder" or "sharper" (at least, that's how I'd explain it).