[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[Onibi]

Hello Mephibosheth. I was originally the one asking about the stacking blasts thing. It was because of Xin Fu's number of rocks thrown at Toph in The Blind Bandit. I have another question, though.

After looking at the Fossilize (Dust + Immobilize) form, both Dust and Immobilize have a DC increase for a larger area/capture target. If you, say, wanted to capture a huge creature, would you need to add another +15 to the DC (+5 for 15 ft area of dust, and +10 for a huge creature)? Or is there a better way to do this?

The reason I ask is because Dust initially covers a 10 ft area, and according to the monster manual, a huge creature covers 3x3 squares, or 15 ft, which means adding +5 to Dust, and +10 to Immobilize for two size increases (medium to huge).

Is this making the form too hard to do? Or is there a better way to do this? For example, if I wanted to make a form with Dust + Immobilize + Column(Crush), and had the proposed feats Focused Bending (Immobilize), Specialized Bending (Immobilize), Focused Bending (Column), and Form Mastery, the basic DC is 32.

Further, since Column has no DC for increasing the number of columns at a time, would you have to add +10 for each additional creature you want to crush at the same time you add +10 for each additional creature you want to capture?

[dman11235]

I know I promised that I'd do the Airbender yesterday, but I've been having internet troubles. As in, it's a wonder that I'm able to post this it's been going off so much. Since I don't know whether or not I'll have enough time to go over the class right now (it'll go off right before I hit post, I know it), put a rain check on that review until at least tomorrow night, as the guy is coming in the morning.

[dman11235]

Feels good to be back with access!

Anyways, onto the Airbender.

Blast: so... at level one they can't affect any creature (except really small ones)? Or does the "or objects weighing" only apply to objects? Possibly just the English language being stupid again. If the weight thing only applies to objects, I'd suggest just making it 5 lbs per level rather than 10 lbs/2 levels, means you can actually affect objects at level 1 and you constantly get better. Also, does it have to originate from you? Same with all blasts actually.

Deflect:see my waterbender review for any possible problems (I assume it's the exact same).

Body of Air: fine, I like it. It's actually quite powerful for a skill enhancing ability, but it's fine. However, two things. You neglect to mention that the Airbender is not limited by height with jump checks and in the second sentence you heve "alternatively, and airbender".

Windshaping: Is it a bull rush then? And does the stuff just end up 5' away, same orientation?

Flight: Seems like a really short duration to me. I mean, what's flight constant after level 10? Same with infinite healing (why is there a limit with the water bender?), it's not that big a deal, and by level 15 every character that can't fly through magic will have Wings of Flying or something similar. I know that this setting doesn't have magic items, like, at all, but i pretty sure Aang could fly for much longer periods of time than just his wis modifier (which is likely around +4 or so) Maybe have it be like the Raptorans (RotW), with a short duration at level 4 and then indefinite later on. And increase speed and maneuverability, statring with 20/poor, building to average/whatever you feel is appropriate (not perfect or good: no hover).

Dodge: Right-o. But why not just say that they gain the monk's AC bonus like the Monk's Belt does?

Particles: Some more copy/paste issues, you refer to the fog. Other than that it should be fine.

Palm Blow: Is this in addition to the normal blast? You kind of allude to that with the concentration bit, but you should make it perfectly clear. Ambiguity is what killed unarmed combat. Or better yet, have it not be a template, not really much of a reason for it to be one anyways.

Air Burst: Specify that it only applies to forms that target a single creature/object.

Air Thrust: Why is this a template? How? Should be a separate form.

Resonating Sound: You know, one would think that the few ways an airbender can actually deal damage would do a good bit of damage. I mean, you've got this, the blast when used creatively, air thrust, Air Scythe, and maybe one or two more when used creatively. Air Scythe puts this to shame. Though I guess it might be fine as it also deafens and is a line.

Flowing Air Strike: You know, I saw attack bonus based on skill check and thought the worst, but really it's not THAT bad. It's still really powerful, but not as bad as I originally thought. It's within acceptable limits.

Levitate: Wait, what about Hand of Air? Isn't that the same thing, but less powerful? You should probably change it to be more different. And yes, I know that this is self only and 10' per move action, but still, it is very similar. twinkle Toes is fine though, but kind of runs into conflicts with the sound form.

Air Scythe: As one of the few offensive abilities, it's fine. Though why you have both buffet and batter is beyond me, when you can just say it mimics your staff.

Engulfing Winds: What about something that weighs 80 lbs per level +1 lbs (Updraft)?

Tornado (Capture): Is the height a function of the top width?

[Mephibosheth]

Dman11235:

Blast: so... at level one they can't affect any creature (except really small ones)? Or does the "or objects weighing" only apply to objects? Possibly just the English language being stupid again. If the weight thing only applies to objects, I'd suggest just making it 5 lbs per level rather than 10 lbs/2 levels, means you can actually affect objects at level 1 and you constantly get better. Also, does it have to originate from you? Same with all blasts actually.

I changed the blast so that the weight limit doesn't affect creatures. That's what size bonuses to bullrush-related checks are for.

Body of Air: fine, I like it. It's actually quite powerful for a skill enhancing ability, but it's fine. However, two things. You neglect to mention that the Airbender is not limited by height with jump checks and in the second sentence you heve "alternatively, and airbender".

Whoops. Thanks for the catch. I've made the changes.

Windshaping: Is it a bull rush then? And does the stuff just end up 5' away, same orientation?

Pretty much. This ability is intended to be just like Manipulate/Play with Fire/Move a Rock. Prestidigitation for airbenders. Aang pushes small creatures and objects (mud, bugs, etc) away from himself using airbending on a relatively regular basis.

Flight: Seems like a really short duration to me. I mean, what's flight constant after level 10? Same with infinite healing (why is there a limit with the water bender?), it's not that big a deal, and by level 15 every character that can't fly through magic will have Wings of Flying or something similar. I know that this setting doesn't have magic items, like, at all, but i pretty sure Aang could fly for much longer periods of time than just his wis modifier (which is likely around +4 or so) Maybe have it be like the Raptorans (RotW), with a short duration at level 4 and then indefinite later on. And increase speed and maneuverability, statring with 20/poor, building to average/whatever you feel is appropriate (not perfect or good: no hover).

I increased the duration and allowed unlimited flight at 10th level, as you suggested. I'm keeping the original speed/maneuverability progression. Aang's flying is agile enough that I'm comfortable with good maneuverability at 20th level.

Dodge: Right-o. But why not just say that they gain the monk's AC bonus like the Monk's Belt does?

I dunno. Cuz we felt like it?

Particles: Some more copy/paste issues, you refer to the fog. Other than that it should be fine.

Done and done.

Palm Blow: Is this in addition to the normal blast? You kind of allude to that with the concentration bit, but you should make it perfectly clear. Ambiguity is what killed unarmed combat. Or better yet, have it not be a template, not really much of a reason for it to be one anyways.

Yeah, I don't quite know why this was a template. I changed that.

Air Burst: Specify that it only applies to forms that target a single creature/object.

I kept it as only applying to an Air Blast because I don't want airbenders to be able to use abilities like Air Scythe on every creature in the radius. We've seen Aang use this ability many times, but always to push creatures away.

Air Thrust: Why is this a template? How? Should be a separate form.

Changed

Levitate: Wait, what about Hand of Air? Isn't that the same thing, but less powerful? You should probably change it to be more different. And yes, I know that this is self only and 10' per move action, but still, it is very similar. twinkle Toes is fine though, but kind of runs into conflicts with the sound form.

An airbender can't use Hand of Air to levitate himself. This seed is supposed to mimic Aang's helicopter-like ability to move straight up and down and hang in the air. Also, the main focus of the twinkle toes application (in my opinion) is gaining concealment against tremorsense-based foes. Plus, the bonuses are unnamed, and would stack with each other.

Engulfing Winds: What about something that weighs 80 lbs per level +1 lbs (Updraft)?

Not quite sure what you mean by this. Could you clarify?

Tornado (Capture): Is the height a function of the top width?

The two dimensions are independent of each other, but higher airbending checks increase both dimensions simultaneously.

Omnibi:

Most of these questions should be answered by your individual DM when you worked out the functioning of the form. The forms in the Forms Compendium aren't intended to be 100% canon, but rather to demonstrate how you could use the system.

I can't find Specialized Bending and Form Mastery at the moment for some reason, but the Focused Bending feats only give you a +4 to bending checks related to a specific form. Depending of course on the feats you mentioned, the DC for the maneuver you described would be 54 (4 [combining seeds] + 10 [dust] + 10 [column] +30), with the bender gaining a +8 bonus on the attempt because of Focused Bending.

[dman11235]

In order...

Yeah, I thought it was just the language being stupid.

done.

Well, you don't say that it is resolved as a bull rush, even though that's pretty much what it is. I have no problem with the ability, just the wording which can be abused, I'm sure of it. I'm paranoid like that.

Good maneuverability-hover. Can Aang hover? Didn't think so. At least, I don't remember any instance where he did hover. Or reduce speed at all. Though you might be able to say that the airbender must retain a minimum forward movement to stay aloft, having it be an exception to the rule. But the more I think of it I think he only had average. He didn't turn on a dime (90 degree), he always used an arc (a characteristic of average maneuverability). Average is more maneuverable than you think, and so is good.

Heh.
Ehe.

Heh.

Did you change the wording? Cause I could've sworn it didn't specify Air Blast last night. When I read it last night I thought it could be applied to any form, even Tornado.



Alright.

I realize that Hand of Air isn't powerful enough to levitate yourself, but the point was that it's the same idea, only weaker. It's just so similar, you'd think they'd be the same ability. But since mechanics dictate that they aren't they have to be different forms.

You don't say what happens if something weighs more than 80 lbs per level. What, does it spontaneously turn into potatoes? If nothing happens to those really heavy objects, you at least need to say that they aren't affected.

Right! Because it says "height an top width", not just top width! I can read, really!

[dman11235]

Dude: NEW EPISODES! Not sure if you knew.

[Darkkwalker]

Actually, in several episodes and during fights Aang hovers.

What he does is blow a bunch of air out of his mouth to slow a fall or to avoid the horizontal slash of a bladed weapon.

[dman11235]

But is that the flight? I don't think it is, I think that's the other form, levitate. The flight is what he uses with his staff.

[Shades of Gray]

Apparently a firebender couldn't firebend in "the cooler" in the burning rock.

So, maybe we should impose a -5 or -10 penalty to firebending in extreme cold, except on using that endure elements seed.

[Pirate_King]

or perhaps the fire in the stomach seed is what allows them to firebend at all in extreme cold.

[dman11235]

That's better than the penalty, because I'd bet that that guy was not a very powerful bender, but a -10 penalty is simultaneously crippling and too easy. You won't find a happy medium there. But requiring a specific seed is...limiting. Unless Fire in the Stomach was granted at a higher class level (I know it's not, but if it was) like level 7.

I know personally I don't want to have to build my character a certain way to not be useless, I'd like there to be variety.

EDIT: I'll be going over the Firebender next. Not sure if it'll be today or tomorrow, but soon. In fact, I'm thinking it'll be tonight that I do it. And probably Tuesday for the Earth.

[dman11235]

Alright, it's time to play with fire!

First off, I'm pretty sure some firebenders are fine in medium armors. Maybe they have a couple fighter levels, but something to consider would be giving them proficiency in all light armors. Maybe medium, but like I said, they could have (and likely did) fighter levels. Or warrior.

Child of the Sun: This is a fairly powerful ability, since daytime is, well, when most campaigns are active. I was fine with the water bender one since night isn't a common adventuring time. Also, where does it indicate in the show that firebenders are more powerful during the day? Same with water for night. I know that the solar eclipse/full moon/comet/lunar eclipse (maybe?) affects them, but just day/night?

Fire Blast: see other blasts. Also, why does it deal half-damage to flammable materials?

Deflect Attack: see others.

Play with Fire: fine.

Firestorm: fine.

Endure Elements: fine.

Energy Resistance: Fine, considering the rest of the class.

Fire Kick: Fine, but not sure why people would use it. Double range, woo-hoo! At level 1 that's a full 45', making it 90'. That's further than all close range spells, and really that's all you ever need. I'd consider just dropping it.

Fire Whip: How come it doesn't have the increase damage bit that Water Whip does? I'd advise putting in an increase damage part to this. Also, what about adding str to damage? If you do, is that fire damage as well?

Explosion: "The explosion also deals on damage..." Is that supposed to be "one"? Also, aren't templates only supposed to be a + to the DC, not a base DC, or is it supposed to be a base DC and you just follow the normal combining seeds rules? Anyways, if it is one dice of damage, is that in addition to the normal, or is it (like it is suggesting) replacing the normal? And is the damage dice fire damage, or something else (bludgeoning or straight damage, probably straight, avoid DR)?

Blades of Fire: Why only one attack per round? It should be able to apply to all of your attacks, even in the first round. At least if you increase the DC to make it a swift action.

Intensity: fine.

Burning Rush: Taking into account the latest episode, I'm thinking a limited form of flight is in order. It looked as though she was flying for a moment, not just jumping with aid. Though I guess it could be jumping with aid, but the force is applied throughout, and not just at the beginning. One thing is for certain, feather fall like effects are in order sometime.

Fire in the Stomach: See previous discussion bits.

Incandesce: I fail to see anything wrong with it, other than the fact that Melt Stone can become really powerful. Also, choose a new name, this isn't a word.

Break Stance: fun.

Breath of the Dragon: fine.

Fireburst: Fine, but can they choose to lower the size of the area? Does it have to be manifested at the maximum area? This goes for all area bendings with this wording.

Wall of Fire: See Fireburst.

Blue Fire: Doesn't a template just add to the DC?

Flamethrower: fine, but why separate the abilities that affect an area?

Lightning: Me likey.

[Ceiling009]

The Child of the Moon/Sun bits are... it's not explicit that firebenders are stronger in the day, but Siege of North Part 2 sort of explained it. While Katara was basically owning Zuko at night, soon as it hit daybreak, zuko was clearly much stronger. But, it's hard to say how much.

[dman11235]

Really? I didn't notice that. I'll have to watch that episode again.

EDIT: Unless you meant a different episode, Katara was only that much better because of the full moon. Not because it was night.

[Ceiling009]

There aren't many particular episodes at night, and outside of mooks, most firebenders in the day time tend to be pretty noteworthy. But it's a lot based with the line "You may rise with the moon, but I rise with the sun!". A +2 sounds powerful, but a smart player of a Waterbender will probably the first one to do scout missions at night, or stand watch. I'd really like to figure out a way to give all benders a +2 depending on the situation, but how would you do that with Earthbenders? Or Air? If there's a storm... for an Airbender maybe a +2... but Aang didn't particularly fare well in storms...

Well.. how about he Painted Lady episode? Katara seemed even more like water ninja at night (though really cause it was dark and she was dressed up), it looks like she was even better then...?

[dman11235]

It's really hard to place those instances as night/not night/etc. I agree that the full moon/comet thing should do something (it's very obvious), but even that +2 for firebenders that no other one will get. And the +2 for water at night. It just doesn't seem fair is all. And not really supported well by the show. And who knows, it could be that those time that Katara was more powerful at night were just coincidence.

Oh, and a +2 goes a long way when you base a class ability off of a skill check. Especially at low levels.

[Mephibosheth]

A couple of quotes to provide evidence for the effect of night/moon on waterbending and the day/sun on firebending:

Season 1, Episode 19 - The Siege of the North: Part I

It's almost twilight, Admiral. As your military consultant I must advise you to halt your attack. The waterbenders draw their power from the moon and it is nearly full tonight.

I've always noticed my waterbending is stronger at night.

You rise with the moon. I rise with the sun.

Season 1, Episode 16 - The Deserter

Feel the heat of the sun. It is the greatest source of fire. Yet, it is in complete balance with nature!

Hope that helps. I'll respond to the rest of your comments tomorrow, dmann.

Mephibosheth

[dman11235]

Points then. But I still don't like the fact that water/fire benders are better than others depending on the time of day. It just feels...tacky. It just doesn't sit right.

[Mephibosheth]

Points then. But I still don't like the fact that water/fire benders are better than others depending on the time of day. It just feels...tacky. It just doesn't sit right.

I understand. It didn't feel right to me at first either. However, the fact that firebending is noticeably more powerful during the day and waterbending is noticeably more powerful at night is the central premise of at least three episodes of the show. Ultimately, I don't think it has to be as big of a deal as you make it out. If anything, it should fall upon the DM to vary the time of encounters/adventures. There are plenty of quests that only happen at night or are usually done at night.

[dman11235]

I know it's not much of a bonus, and the time of day can vary, but it still just doesn't sit right. I can't place it really. Maybe I'm being paranoid again. Who knows, I'm going to sleep now and see if I can make more sense of it tomorrow. Just ignore that part until tomorrow.

[Mephibosheth]

First off, I'm pretty sure some firebenders are fine in medium armors. Maybe they have a couple fighter levels, but something to consider would be giving them proficiency in all light armors. Maybe medium, but like I said, they could have (and likely did) fighter levels. Or warrior.

We had a huge debate about this a while ago. This was the compromise people seemed willing to agree on. I'm with you on the armor issue, but this is the group consensus.

Child of the Sun: This is a fairly powerful ability, since daytime is, well, when most campaigns are active. I was fine with the water bender one since night isn't a common adventuring time. Also, where does it indicate in the show that firebenders are more powerful during the day? Same with water for night. I know that the solar eclipse/full moon/comet/lunar eclipse (maybe?) affects them, but just day/night?

See previous posts. It seems pretty important to the show, so I'm reluctant to jettison it.

Fire Blast: see other blasts. Also, why does it deal half-damage to flammable materials?

I changed the description. It now deals half damage to non-flammable materials instead of flammable ones.

Fire Kick: Fine, but not sure why people would use it. Double range, woo-hoo! At level 1 that's a full 45', making it 90'. That's further than all close range spells, and really that's all you ever need. I'd consider just dropping it.

This seed is a holdover from the version 1.0 benders (which I still haven't gotten around to updating yet ). It works better when you don't have a way of extending the range of your blasts built into the system. We've had complaints about its low power before, but I'm reluctant to jettison it completely without the support of more contributors. What says the playground on this issue?

Fire Whip: How come it doesn't have the increase damage bit that Water Whip does? I'd advise putting in an increase damage part to this. Also, what about adding str to damage? If you do, is that fire damage as well?

What if I changed it to have the whip deal Fire Blast damage instead of a set damage amount? Better? Also, I specified that any additional damage is half fire, half slashing. The whips seem to have some physical damaging capabilities. Zuko uses them to cut through stone in one scene.

Explosion: "The explosion also deals on damage..." Is that supposed to be "one"? Also, aren't templates only supposed to be a + to the DC, not a base DC, or is it supposed to be a base DC and you just follow the normal combining seeds rules? Anyways, if it is one dice of damage, is that in addition to the normal, or is it (like it is suggesting) replacing the normal? And is the damage dice fire damage, or something else (bludgeoning or straight damage, probably straight, avoid DR)?

Whoops. Typos. Templates are supposed to be a + to the DC and avoid the +4 required for combining normal seeds. I've fixed it. I also changed the seed so that it simply functions as a Fire Blast (dealing normal damage) that pushes an opponent back. Any objections?

Blades of Fire: Why only one attack per round? It should be able to apply to all of your attacks, even in the first round. At least if you increase the DC to make it a swift action.

That's a good suggestion. What would you suggest by way of a DC increase for allowing multiple attacks?

Burning Rush: Taking into account the latest episode, I'm thinking a limited form of flight is in order. It looked as though she was flying for a moment, not just jumping with aid. Though I guess it could be jumping with aid, but the force is applied throughout, and not just at the beginning. One thing is for certain, feather fall like effects are in order sometime.

I was going to make a new seed similar to the Airbender's Leap seed that gives them a sizeable bonus to Jump checks. I don't want to give firebenders flight unless the show demonstrates it explicitly and without a doubt. I'm not too sure about feather fall either. I've never seen them use firebending to slow down a fall (unless I'm forgetting something).

Incandesce: I fail to see anything wrong with it, other than the fact that Melt Stone can become really powerful. Also, choose a new name, this isn't a word.

I think that's a spelling error. I think it's supposed to be "Incandescence." I'm open to name change suggestions, though.

Fireburst: Fine, but can they choose to lower the size of the area? Does it have to be manifested at the maximum area? This goes for all area bendings with this wording.

I hadn't really thought about that. I've changed the wording. I hope that clears it up.

Blue Fire: Doesn't a template just add to the DC?

Fixed

Flamethrower: fine, but why separate the abilities that affect an area?

Cuz firebenders are kinda short on seeds anyway. Firebenders have a very limited focus, so we had to be creative with some of their abilities. Most often, they just shoot Fire Blasts, but that makes for a very boring class, don't you think? If you have any ideas for new seeds (keeping them grounded in the show, of course), post up!

Lightning: Me likey.

I'm glad. We had a devil of a time figuring out lightening and blue fire. Glad they pass muster.

Thanks again for taking the time to do these analyses. They really help.

Mephibosheth

[dman11235]

Hey, it's what I do.

You know the drill, in order.

Did not realize that there was a debate. Well, like I said, many of the ones that actually wore armor probably had fighter levels too, so it would be hard to adjudicate whether or not they have proficiency. But I would like them to have either light armor on no armor, it's not common at all that a class is trained only in specific armors. And besides, armors are general enough that you count as proficient with others of the same type, even if you only trained with one. Just a personal preference, I like there to be precedence as much as possible.

see debate. Yeah.

Sounds good now.

I say kill it. Not worth keeping as is. If there was something else that it did instead, keep it, but double range is worthless.

You can simplify it a lot by just saying half of the damage is slashing, and half of the damage is fire, and as such is not affected by damage reduction. Feel free to quote that. Note that this would indicate that I would not think it wise to have it deal blast damage, even though that would be a fairly reasonable method. I'd personally prefer something similar to the Water Whip. increase the size of the dice by one for every 4 you add to the DC might work. Though it may be better to use +5. I'll run through some math...Yeah, probably +5. The WW might want to do the same with the WW. But I'm sure the playtesting will sort that out.

Well, what about explosions expelling objects? Gah, what was his name, that explody guy? I'm pretty sure his blasts would be doing half fire/half force, and act as if the Explosive Spell MM feat was applied. And I'm not sure if it's possible to create a fire ball with the current system. That can be a new seed, fire ball (or whatever). And then Explosion can be applied to it. It'll cover an area. Oh, and funny thing, I'm pretty sure he was actually using the spell. It even had a "bead" that flew out and exploded against the first thing it hit.

I'm not sure, it'll take me a bit to go through some of the math and try to balance it. I'll get back to you on that. But first, I think a swift action concentrate w...wait, why not just have it be a standard action to manifest it, and then swift action concentrate. You can use the quicken bending rules to make it manifest faster, and have it last for concentration, all attacks deal fire blast damage as well. Shouldn't be overpowered at all.

Actually, I went back on what I originally said. She was just jumping. But instead of a large boost at the beginning and nothing else, it was a constant stream of smaller aid. though I'm still not sure how she's getting propulsion from that. Anyways, the feather fall thing was just the whole, she appeared to be flying. It wouldn't be a new seep to represent what happened in the show, it would be creative use to create something new.

Okay, Incandescence: It can melt stone. Well, lava deals 20d6/round for total immersion. That's pretty powerful. This is a warning. This ability might be able to be abused. Might want to increase the damage required to the HP of the rock. Which is more than 20 for a 5' cube.

Better.

Okay.

Alright, I've got one...but it's another area thing that you missed. I'll try to think of anything you missed, but I don't think you did. The thing is, if I can create a line of fire, why not a burst of fire? I mean, I can control fire really well, so why not? Why is the technique so different?

Right.

[Ceiling009]

Fire Kick needs an upgrade I think, Firebenders already really have the least seeds... Firekicks have always been larger, and on the whole, been a large surprise for a lot of people who always forget that firebenders can shoot fire from their feet. I think, to make it a viable seed, make it do an extra die of blast damage, that scales. That would be a lot better than range; since range now scales, and from what I can remember, both kicks and punches tend to probably go the same distance; but often the kicks are dodged versus blocked, mostly.

[Pirate_King]

I agree with half fire, half slashing, but not with dealing fireblast damage. that's what adding the intensity template is for.

As for firebenders leap, I just think it's pretty awesome that we put that in before it actually got used in the show, then they did it.

I think firekick should allow firebending seeds and forms to be performed when the hands are full.

Also, I don't know what to call it, but something we've seen Zuko do a few times is send a blast to the floor to throw his opponent off balance, first in his agni kai, and most recently in boiling rock, when a guard came to interrupt him and Mei. I dunno what to call it, but it could allow you to use a firebending check instead of a bluff check for a feint action, or maybe it could be a bit more complicated since it could actually do a bit of damage.

[dman11235]

They must be reading this. That's why they put it in.

Yes on the firekick. But that's still fairly weak. It would work, but it's still a little weak. That can be one half of it though.

As for the throwing someone off balance, that's Stance Breaker or Break Stance.

[Pirate_King]

the way I understood break stance, though, was through force, since you have to hit with at least two fireblasts at -4 to attack, as well as make a 25 on a firebending check to make it happen. I was thinking something a bit more subtle. Firebenders aren't really known for that, but we've seen it, using low firesweeps to trip, a sort of hot-foot kind of thing. maybe just add another application for break stance that's a little easier, and does less? as it is, Break Stance isn't even possible until 6th level, and even then you have to firestorm with a total attack penalty of -6 to get the needed attacks. Sure, the effect of knocking your opponent back 5 ft, making them flat-footed, and possibly forcing them to lose their next turn and still doing a total of 4d6 fire damage is pretty powerful, but is it worth it to try when you're rolling 1d20-2 to attack? what kind of AC are you looking at on your opponents at 6th level?

[dman11235]

Maybe Break Stance needs to be changed a little? It is a little confusing right now.

[Pirate_King]

while I'm doing math, a L20 firebender can do a maximum of 180 damage with lighting, while he can do a maximum of 144 when firestorming, 192 firestorming with blue fire(without rapid shot) lighting takes a round to prepare before you can actually unleash it on a single target, where as fireblasts are immediate, and attacks can be divided amond multiple targets (and doing damage at all doesn't depend on an attack roll) although, is Lightning a reflex half, or an attack roll? it doesn't really specify. It almost reads like an automatic hit. I'm not really sure if these numbers should mean anything significant, they might be fair, considering blue fireblasts don't do more damage than lighting until L20, but I thought I'd bring attention to it, as well as the wording of the lighting seed.

[dman11235]

Lightning is only one shot at full BAB (if it's an attack roll, which it probably should be), where as the Fireblast with Blue Fire is three (or was your math 4?) at lowering attack bonuses each time, not being touch attacks.

[Pirate_King]

Is lightning at touch AC? does that matter with Defense bonus variant?

my math for 4 attacks was with firestorm. yeah, the attacks get progressively less accurate, but theres still a better chance of some of it hitting; lightning is all or nothing. I'm thinking we get rid of the round of preparation, the DC is already pretty high; did Ozai quicken his lightning? I think when Iroh did it slow, it was because he was showing Zuko how to do it. I think keeping it a full-round action is reasonable, but having to wait a whole round before releasing it is a bit much.