[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[dman11235]

I agree, full round action, release at end of the turn. Or, just have it be like spells with a one round casting time, takes the full round to perform, releases on the next round, but you have a full round's worth of actions. Also, it says nothing of attack method. Should be touch attack. And yes, it does still matter with the defense bonus: defense is less than armor. It'll be 8 more than the average touch AC of a normal monk/bender/etc, but it's still lower than total AC. And heavy armor characters (which still exist) will have the same problems. Also, the first attack even with med BAB is likely to hit. If you want though, you can give a bonus to hit for lightning.

[Pirate_King]

And yes, it does still matter with the defense bonus: defense is less than armor. It'll be 8 more than the average touch AC of a normal monk/bender/etc, but it's still lower than total AC. And heavy armor characters (which still exist) will have the same problems.

Touch attacks are less effective under this system, since most characters’ touch ACs are significantly higher than in a standard game.

defense bonus stacks with touch AC, whereas armor bonus doesn't. Heavy armor characters have the highest defense bonus, anyway. It still goes through DR, but that's it.

[dman11235]

Yes, they are still higher, but the NA still doesn't apply, and heavy armor characters will still have a better AC bonus that the defense bonus, and that will not apply to touch attacks. The point is that they are less effective, but it's still more effective than regular attacks. If only by a couple points. And the characters that benefit from the defense feature will likely have had high touch ACs anyways, so moot point there.

I don't know, I'll run some math later, and see where it leaves us. May want to add a +4 bonus to the attack roll or something for it like I said though.

[Pirate_King]

I think making the whole thing doable in a single round would probably be enough, if touch is still useful.

[Ceiling009]

Firekick...Though theoretically, since fireblasts can be delivered as unarmed strikes, it actually makes firekick less useful; remember unarmed strikes are from any part of the body. So it really needs to be something interesting, but canon. Fire kick could be used for a feint attempt? Often times the kick is just a precursor for a larger blast that's higher up; or like in TBR, there's a two footed kick which seemed to be pretty large, more so than a normal blast. There's also the ubiquitous flying axe kick thing, where the firebender does a forward flip, and the foot and hand land doing a huge fiery flare (look at the opening of the show.) So, either it does something like a feint, or it's a much stronger blast from the foot than a normal blast.

Lightning, since we've seen only two people ever do it; either it's an autohit or a touch attack that has to have an extra to hit modifier (it seriously never misses). Azula almost always takes a full round action, with the shot happening at the end of her full round action, or it happens right before her next turn. The only time it's missed is Ozai's quickened lightning blast...

There are two possible explanations, it's a touch attack, which has a bonus to hit (probably wisdom), if taken as a full round action; otherwise you gain a penalty for quickening it. Or two; it's an autohit (since theoretically you can't actually direct lightning, as mentioned by Iroh), and Zuko has evasion or improved evasion. I'm really liking the first proposition.

[dman11235]

Wait, I thought it was just that the fire can be dealt instead of an unarmed strike or as a blast?

On lightning, good suggestions, but I'll think about more tomorrow. I'm kind of tired and have an early morning, so I'm checking out mentally. I'll think about these thing tomorrow, before I go over Earth (sorry I didn't do it tonight like I said I would).

[Gmmaster42]

I have a question. What about bypassing DR? Not being able to do that would put benders at a disadvantage compare to other characters wouldn't it?

[Ceiling009]

Look to the Non-Canon Thread for issues pertaining to DR bypass, and other things I think that would fit in normally to a more standard DnD game.

[ErrantX]

Well, I've been moderately absent lately, seems new blood has started our rock rolling again.

As far as Lightning goes (we really should just remove the reference Cold Fire under the seed as we've removed Redirect Lightning from it and have it simply just be lightning), by reading it I'd assume it was an autohit that allowed a Reflex save. There are pros and cons to that, obviously, so it definitely should be decided. Keep in mind, we've only seen lLghtning strike it's intended target once, i.e. Azula shooting Aang (the other few times it was manifested at someone it was redirected, see Iroh in 112 & 201 and Zuko in 311). It could very well be an attack roll, but I'd prefer it to be an autohit and allow for a Reflex save. That's how I'd run it, just by looking at it how it's written.

And Fire Kick... while it's a decent seed at low level (to get that range boost), it quickly loses it's luster. That spinning/jumping axe kick that gets done should be part of it... I could see it adding an additional die of damage but then everyone would have it and no one would punch...ever. So I liked the suggestion where someone said it changed up the damage type to half slashing... except then it would be greater subject to DR. Really, what it comes down to is that Fire Kick just isn't all that useful. The only thing I could think of that might make it moderately worth it (but then again, everyone would use it constantly) would be that it also increases the threat range for critical hits with your fire blast. My last idea for a revamp of Fire Kick is that it has a caveat that says it can only be used once per round, adds +1d6 to your Blast damage and improves the threat range for your blast to 18-20/x2. Make the Template have two uses then so it would sorta like this:

Fire Kick (Template)
Base DC: +5
By using a series of quick kicks to propel his Fire Blast, a firebender can greatly increase the range of his abilities.
• Applications: Applying this seed to a Fire Blast doubles the firebender's effective bending range for the purpose of that Fire Blast. The seed also allows the firebender to use his Fire Blasts while his hands are full or immobilized. Note that this template cannot be applied to any form that cannot be performed with the feet (such as by applying another template involving a body part or when stuck in a waterbender’s Steady Stance).
• Axe Kick (DC +20): By delivering a fierce axe kick while firing a Fire Blast, the force of his blast intensifies. Once per round, he may add an additional +1d6 to the Fire Blast's damage and increases the critical threat range of his Fireblast to 18-20/x2.

That's my 2 cents. I'll try not to fade into obscurity anymore.

-X

[Mephibosheth]

Here's what I think about these issues.

Fire Kick:

I agree it needs a powerup. I propose the following:

1. Fire Kick doubles the range of any firebending seed (even AoE seeds). Furthermore, it doubles the range after range increases because of a high firebending check are added. We've seen firebenders use long-range attacks frequently in the show, and it could easily be a huge tactical advantage, especially given that no other bending class has an ability like this.

2. Fire Kick allows the firebender to bend even when his/her hands are full or immobilized. Yes, a firebender can deliver a Fire Blast through an unarmed strike, but not at range. Since all of these classes are essentially ranged combatants (or at least, they're often better at range than at melee), this can be a substantial benefit.

3. I'd be comfortable with a small damage increase, but it should pale in comparison to Blue Fire and Lightening. Maybe +1d6, with the ability to increase that by adding +10 or +15 to the DC for each additional d6. I don't think this should be a heavy damage seed.

Break Stance:

I think I'm going to advocate revamping the seed to make it represent the kind of "shoot fire at the opponent's feet to knock them off balance" move that Zuko uses so frequently. Perhaps something like this:

Unbalancing Blast (Template)
Base DC: +15
By adding +15 to the Firebending DC of a Fire Blast, a bender can attempt to unbalance an opposing bender. The bender takes -4 to attack rolls on these blasts. If the firebender hits with a Fire Blast while using this form, the target must make a Reflex save or be rendered flat-footed and pushed back 5 feet. When using this seed, the firebender's Fire Blasts deal half their normal damage.

Then, I support removing the Break Stance seed from the firebender seed list and making it a feat. We need more feats and when Zuko breaks Commander Zhao’s root in The Warriors of Kyoshi (Season 1, Episode 3), he does so with a simple kick, not a firebending move. Perhaps something like this:

Break Stance [general]
You know how to attack to unbalance a bender, reducing his ability to bend effectively.
Prerequisites: BAB +6, Knowledge (Bending) 3 ranks
Benefit: When executing an unarmed strike or a targeted bending seed, you may attempt to break your opponent's stance and hinder his ability to bend. Attempting to do so requires a successful attack roll at a -4 penalty. If you hit with this attack, your opponent is rendered flat-footed, pushed back 5 feet, and takes a -5 penalty to all Bending skill checks. Additionally, your opponent must make a Reflex save or be considered dazed for one round.
Special: A fighter may select Break Stance as one of his fighter bonus feats.

Lightning:

I'm fine with eliminating the full-round "charging" action and simply making the seed a full-round action. I also think it would work better as a ranged touch attack, but I'm not too attached to that mechanic and will gladly accept the will of the community.

Those are my thoughts, anyways.

Mephibosheth

[Ceiling009]

For Lightning, I prefer the range touch with bonuses, because then redirect lightning makes a little more sense. I don't feel like it's an autohit, cause both Azula and Ozai at least have to aim; or at least direct the lightning a little more than what I think most autohit "spells" require.

About firekick, I was saying to add a little more damage, but I agree with Meph, about the scaling issues; I don't really see it as damaging as blue fire, but the blasts themselves coming from the kicks are always a little bigger.

I like that Break Stance Feat, so that any bender can use it.

[ErrantX]

I like your Break Stance feat and your Unbalancing Blast seed Meph. And here I thought we were all done with seeds ;)

I'd definitely vote those in, I think they make more sense then the current Break Stance seed and the big nothing that non-benders get. Gives Ty Lee something as well as warriors like Suki against benders. Good show.

As far as Lightning, I'd say yes to it simply being a full round action to do, but if we're going to make it an attack roll, I'd say either make it a ranged touch attack (as the lightning arcs around and is so fast that it's harder to dodge) or add Wisdom to the attack roll. I'd prefer to make it a ranged touch attack if it's not an autohit with Reflex save like lightning bolt.

Any thoughts on my proposal for Fire Kick?

-X

[Ceiling009]

I like the proposals. Makes Fire Kick worthwhile. Since there isn't any other way to actually extend the crit range of blasts... in fact, you can't even crit with a blast can you?

If you can't, then well this makes this seed a little too good. But if they're like unarmed strikes (blasts), then they only crit on 20's (can you take improved critical or improved natural weapon or what not?).

[dman11235]

We will never be done with seeds! Never I say! At least, they may change as long as there are still episodes left. And I say we leave the movie out of it and any possible additional episodes that will fall under the shameless sequel category. Only original run counts for canon content. Additional episodes and the movie and any possible subsequent movies are less accurate to the original setting, and this is true for all shows/movies/books/etc., no matter how good they may be.

Anyways, on to the task at hand, I will get to the Earthbender later tonight, after I respond to this new stuff on fire.

I like the idea of break stance being a feat. It's not like it's exactly a new blast, and why can't a waterbender do that? Also, I say don't add that template if you add the feat: too similar.

For lightning, I'd prefer a ranged touch with bonuses. Like Ceiling said, they did have to aim it.

I also agree with Meph. Increased power seems to be the main advantage in the show, and since the bending forms are based off of martial arts, and kicks are more powerful than punches usually, makes sense. Though it'll take a while to figure how much to increase it by. Maybe just 1d6. On a related note, blue fire: does it increase blast damage to d8/d6, or is the dice increase the entire thing (so level 12 would be 6d6, level 8 4d6)? My guess: the first one. If so, it's not very powerful. That's an average of +6 damage at 20, which is not much. The firebender needs quite a bit of work still I guess. Mainly in the math department. I say we return after I finish the Earthbender, that way I can focus on it.

[dman11235]

Let's get to the grit!

Earth blast: same issues as other blasts.

Deflect Attack: see other instances.

Move a Rock: Looks fine.

Climb: you fail to indicate that they gain the climb speed indicated on the chart. Also, I'd be inclined to allow them to just have the climb speed on bendable surfaces, rather than DC 0 surfaces.

Head On Defense: Fine, but it does arrive a little late for something like this (usually stat to ability bonuses happen in the first two levels). Though since it is to reflex saves, it'll work.

Seeds: The DCs are off. At level 1, the DC to escape is 10+wis, or typically 13. That's a 9 or an 8 for someone with EA maxed, and a 10 for the typical high str character. At level 20, it's probably going to be 25 or so. That's auto make for EA maxed, and a 20 for the str guys. This is assuming no magic items, so wis will be 15+5 most. Same with str. Not sure how to fix this, I've already run through some common methods, and they all suck for it (make it worse). I'll get back to you on it, maybe there can be some brain storming.

Dust: Blind: Me no likey. Called shots are a new mechanic, and it's sort of iffy. Also, why not just have it be a touch attack, and allow a reflex save to shut your eyes really fast? I mean, don't you do that when wind blows dust in your eyes? My suggestion: touch attack, no penalty, allow reflex negates, augment with some increase in the DC to increase the reflex save DC (better at manipulating the dust so it's harder to avoid).

Earth Wall: You shouldn't need to call out stone wall. Just specify in the notes section that earth is stone or soil (or any other acceptable material, talk with DM) and refer to the DMG hardness and HP rules to determine these things.
push: you neglect to say what happens if they fail the reflex save.

Column: why can't the column come from the floor, or the wall and crush the opponent into the ceiling or other wall?

Tilt: the balance DC is simultaneously too low and too high. What I mean is, skill check DCs that follow the same formula as saves DCs are way too low. But balance is a skill that people throw 5 ranks at most into, so they will never make the DC. When I figure out the escape artist/str check thing, we can come back to this, likely the same solution will be had.
Twist: wait, so you can either tilt the rock 45 degrees (I assume) or 90 deg? Same DC? Maybe I'm missing something?

Stone Armor: well, specify that they are automatically proficient with the armor they create. I'm not sure what I think of the DR bit. Though you do need to say that it is a +2 bonus to AC, rather than just +2 to AC. Just to be more formal about it. Well, on the one hand it's really easy to get a high DR (by level 20 you're looking at DR 10 easy, and DR in this setting is big), on the other, if you go with a high DR, the duration won't be as long, but battles last for 4-5 rounds at the most (though might be more or less with this system, you guys've played with it, what's the tendency?) so that's a mere -5 or -6. Not that hard to keep up. Maybe if it was -4 for more than 2 rounds, and then -2 for each round after 2 (so 3 rounds is -6, and 2 rounds is no penalty).

Tremorsense: Include a way to eliminate the miss chance with a much higher DC. Like Toph could.

Steady Stance: See the water bender ability for any possible issues.

Create Rubble: I shy away from things that affect specific body parts, but you guys did a nice job with this one. Though are you going to add that the difficult terrain form can make them fall prone? Also, make it more explicit that you are readying an action for misstep. Though it might not be a necessary addition (the whole thing that is, you can already ready a standard action).

Compact: Immediate actions can already be only taken once per round.

Golem: Fine, see the water bender golem for more, and you need to clarify the enhancement thing more. Can a bender with a +5 wis give the golem +5 str and dex or must the +5 be split (I say let it stack).

Earthen Stride: Please clarify this. A lot. Like, a lot. Earth Jump is fine, but I have no idea on half of what the first part even does.

Catapult: fun...

Excavate: But...move a rock. I guess this is simpler, but you can still do this with move a rock.

Earthquake: I fail to find anything wrong with this.

Metalbending: Fine I guess.

Rift: Ah the thing that was missing from earthquake! It's fine.

[Ceiling009]

hmmm... I thought Dust was more like the fog cloud spell, or dust cloud spell?

[dman11235]

That's the first part of Dust. The second part is Blind.

[Pirate_King]

Then, I support removing the Break Stance seed from the firebender seed list and making it a feat. We need more feats and when Zuko breaks Commander Zhao’s root in The Warriors of Kyoshi (Season 1, Episode 3), he does so with a simple kick, not a firebending move. Perhaps something like this:

The initial trip was just a kick, but once Zuko was back on his feet, he sends several sweeping blasts with his feet to keep Zhao off balance. Or do you mean making the original break stance seed a feat and keeping unbalancing blast as a seed? Something I'd like to add to unbalancing blast, perhaps the attacks take only a -2 penalty, or not penalty, if the bender has the improved trip feat. (though, I don't think an attack penalty is necessary if it's only doing half damage)

Dust represents what Toph did at the end of Blind Bandit, right?

[dman11235]

I agree with Pirate on that. Though I'll have to look at those seeds again.

And I wouldn't know, it's been, oh, a year since I've seen that episode?

[Pirate_King]

You know that perfect crime of killing someone with an ice sickle and no one would be able to find the murder weapon? I've come up with a feat while creating a waterbending rogue npc for my summer campaign:

insert awesome name for sneaky ice attacks
Prerequisites: ability to use sneak attack, the ice shards seed, water bending 6 ranks, knowledge (bending) 6 ranks
Benefit: A character may apply sneak attack damage when attacking with the ranged option for ice shards seed. Only the iceshards seed may be used; it can't be combine to create another form, and only when ice shards is being used against a single target. As normal, all sources of sneak attack damage stack.

overpowered? should I up the prereq's?

I like the feat version of break stance, but does it really need a knowledge bending prereq now that it's a general feat?

[Ceiling009]

Actually, the feat Point Blank Blast, would do the same thing. Since you can combine ice shards and blast, and with that feat, blast can carry precision based damage (ie sneak attack), within in 30ft, it works pretty well like that I think.

Also, break stance, I think it would require a little knowledge of bending, since I think all styles have a implicit root, which if you know how can be broken.

So I was thinking about same form stacking. Like someone asked a while back about stacking blasts (you can easily stack three at low levels). I'm thinking it should be explicitly stated within the bending overview that you can stack things with a larger increase in DC, not the +4 for stacking different seeds, but maybe a +6 or +8 to the DC so as not be able to abuse it.

Also, about precision damage on blasts; without the feat Point Blank Blast, how would let's say a firebender's unarmed strike blast work for crits? Same as an unarmed strike? Also, could you up the critical of a blast or form?

[dman11235]

I say no bending prereqs for Break Stance. Even though Zuko was the only one I remember using it, that doesn't he's the only one capable. And since no bending is required, anyone should be able to do it. And I say aim for level 6 availability.

[Pirate_King]

aw. Everytime I think I come up with something cool, someone comes along and says it's already possible

definitely clarifies point blank blast for me, though. I was kind of confused, since point blank shot could theoretically be applied to a blast since it counts as an exotic ranged weapon.
Edit: the prereq for PBB is +6 BAB, which a water/rogue character wouldn't have until character level 8, making my feat a bit more viable. The power at low level should be balanced by the fact that it only works with ice shards.

Also, break stance, I think it would require a little knowledge of bending, since I think all styles have a implicit root, which if you know how can be broken.

but all styles have a root, even non-bending styles, and the ability can be used against opponents who don't have bending skills. knowledge of a specific bending ability might make it easier against some opponents, but the knowledge is only so relevant to the ability in general.

[dman11235]

It's not exactly a bending specific root, or even a martial art root that allows you to "break stance". You know, saying that, I think it's just feinting. Wow, we don't even need a new feat. Improved Feint will allow you do feint as a move action, and that's about what he did all those times.

With form stacking, isn't it that you add the two DCs together and then add 4? If so, at level one you'd be hard pressed to add three together, for a minimum DC of 19 (5 is the lowest DC, times 3+4). And adding a DC 10 templateis right out. That is, if you actually had three forms, which you don't until level 4.

[Mephibosheth]

Climb: you fail to indicate that they gain the climb speed indicated on the chart. Also, I'd be inclined to allow them to just have the climb speed on bendable surfaces, rather than DC 0 surfaces.

Fixed

Seeds: The DCs are off. At level 1, the DC to escape is 10+wis, or typically 13. That's a 9 or an 8 for someone with EA maxed, and a 10 for the typical high str character. At level 20, it's probably going to be 25 or so. That's auto make for EA maxed, and a 20 for the str guys. This is assuming no magic items, so wis will be 15+5 most. Same with str. Not sure how to fix this, I've already run through some common methods, and they all suck for it (make it worse). I'll get back to you on it, maybe there can be some brain storming.

I'd be interested in seeing what you come up with on this. We discussed this issue, looking for a way to make immobilization seeds useful but not auto-wins, and this was the best system we could think of. Ultimately, though, if a character invests heavily in Strength or Escape Artist, I'm OK with them being able to break out. I can't really think of a better way. Maybe just starting at a higher level (using 15+1/2 class level+Wis)...

Dust: Blind: Me no likey. Called shots are a new mechanic, and it's sort of iffy. Also, why not just have it be a touch attack, and allow a reflex save to shut your eyes really fast? I mean, don't you do that when wind blows dust in your eyes? My suggestion: touch attack, no penalty, allow reflex negates, augment with some increase in the DC to increase the reflex save DC (better at manipulating the dust so it's harder to avoid).

I'm fine with that. I'll make the change. How does +1 to the DC for every 5 points by which the Earthbending check exceeds the DC sound?

Earth Wall: You shouldn't need to call out stone wall. Just specify in the notes section that earth is stone or soil (or any other acceptable material, talk with DM) and refer to the DMG hardness and HP rules to determine these things.
push: you neglect to say what happens if they fail the reflex save.

I think that Stone Wall is there mostly for ease of reference. I'm going to keep it in. It can't hurt, after all.

I clarified the Push application. I think it may just have been a copy/paste oversight or a strange sentence construction on the part of whoever originally drafted the seed.

Column: why can't the column come from the floor, or the wall and crush the opponent into the ceiling or other wall?

It can. The seed says, "An earthbender thrusts a column of earth from the ceiling above, the ground below or a wall beside a creature."

Tilt: the balance DC is simultaneously too low and too high. What I mean is, skill check DCs that follow the same formula as saves DCs are way too low. But balance is a skill that people throw 5 ranks at most into, so they will never make the DC. When I figure out the escape artist/str check thing, we can come back to this, likely the same solution will be had.
Twist: wait, so you can either tilt the rock 45 degrees (I assume) or 90 deg? Same DC? Maybe I'm missing something?

How 'bout a Balance check DC 10+class level+Wis instead of 10+1/2 class level+Wis? Reward characters a little for investing some ranks in Balance while simultaneously being not too difficult.

I'm also not too worried about the DC for the Twist application. It really doesn't do anything all that overpowering.

Stone Armor: well, specify that they are automatically proficient with the armor they create. I'm not sure what I think of the DR bit. Though you do need to say that it is a +2 bonus to AC, rather than just +2 to AC. Just to be more formal about it. Well, on the one hand it's really easy to get a high DR (by level 20 you're looking at DR 10 easy, and DR in this setting is big), on the other, if you go with a high DR, the duration won't be as long, but battles last for 4-5 rounds at the most (though might be more or less with this system, you guys've played with it, what's the tendency?) so that's a mere -5 or -6. Not that hard to keep up. Maybe if it was -4 for more than 2 rounds, and then -2 for each round after 2 (so 3 rounds is -6, and 2 rounds is no penalty).

I changed the seed so that increasing the DR by 1 requires a +4 bump to the DC, not +3. Hopefully that makes it a bit more manageable.

In my experience, combats tend to be a bit longer in this system because total possible damage outputs are lower and there are far fewer auto-win abilities. Even abilities like the waterbender's Wave/Freeze combo don't automatically result in victory.

Tremorsense: Include a way to eliminate the miss chance with a much higher DC. Like Toph could.

I don't know if I support this change. I view Toph as more of an exception than the rule, and don't think that Toph-like blindsight should be available to the run-of-the-mill earthbender. I've advocated a character trait that enhances her tremorsense in the past, but haven't really received a lot of feedback.

Create Rubble: I shy away from things that affect specific body parts, but you guys did a nice job with this one. Though are you going to add that the difficult terrain form can make them fall prone? Also, make it more explicit that you are readying an action for misstep. Though it might not be a necessary addition (the whole thing that is, you can already ready a standard action).

Fixed

Compact: Immediate actions can already be only taken once per round.

Just trying to be thorough.

Golem: Fine, see the water bender golem for more, and you need to clarify the enhancement thing more. Can a bender with a +5 wis give the golem +5 str and dex or must the +5 be split (I say let it stack).

An earthbender can increase both.

Earthen Stride: Please clarify this. A lot. Like, a lot. Earth Jump is fine, but I have no idea on half of what the first part even does.

Yeah, I got nothing. Is the author of this seed still around? Can anyone clarify?

I hope that helps. I'll address other issues (esp. firebender-related issues) later.

Mephibosheth

[Pirate_King]

Yeah, I got nothing. Is the author of this seed still around? Can anyone clarify?

Without actually reading the seed, I get the image of toph doing her thing in guru/crossroads of destiny after having escaped once she discovered metal bending. I was thinking effectively an earth version of wave. reminder, I haven't actually checked the seed as written, that's just what I think it should be based on what we see in the show.

[Mephibosheth]

Without actually reading the seed, I get the image of toph doing her thing in guru/crossroads of destiny after having escaped once she discovered metal bending. I was thinking effectively an earth version of wave. reminder, I haven't actually checked the seed as written, that's just what I think it should be based on what we see in the show.

No, I get what the seed is trying to represent. I just don't get the mechanic it's using. It involves multiplying the base speed (or base running speed, not sure which) by something to determine how quickly a character can move with the seed, and it's very confusing. I was hoping the original author could clarify so we can work out some clearer language.

[dman11235]

Again, in order.

done.

I'll do it later. I need to make pasta now. Curse you for not being online a half hour earlier! And of course, that's if I actually think of something. The increased DC was one of the things I thought of, as there is precedence in the spider's webs and such, they get a +4 racial bonus to the DC. But it doesn't fix the fact that the str check DC is way too high.

I'm thinking +1 DC per 4 may even be fine. Though I'll have to do some math. Either +4 or +5.

Looks fine then.

I could have sworn it didn't say that last night. When I read it, the only reference to being able to do it in any direction was in the fluff.

My point on twist was, well, why would you ever do tilt? Twist will automatically drop them off. Also, manipulate the earth under them, carry them over to where you want to drop them, and drop them using Move a Rock. On the balance DC, like I said, I'll tackle that along with the general one. Actually, look at Grease. Have the DC be 10+1/2 level+wis and then after the initial drop the DC is as set by the DMG on terrain.

Looks better now.

She's really the only one who exhibited this ability, so it's hard to tell. She's also the only one who ever really needed it. Also, you have the lie detection bit, which requires as much, if not more, accuracy. And remember: Toph is extremely powerful. The DC could just be really high.

Done.

Done.

My point was, the wording is a little ambiguous.

Yeah, I have no idea what's it's supposed to be doing. I get that it makes you fast...I think.

[Ceiling009]

Remember, for most fighters, Bluff is a not a class skill, so actually feinting is sort of useless (not to mention they don't get enough skill points to actually use it). Hmm... Make breakstance have a like a +3 Bab requirement for Breakstance, since it's something a a better trained fighter should or could know. Also, I'm okay with point blank blast have a +6 bab (which might have been an artifact of firebenders having full BAB), but I could see the requirement lowered down to +4 BaB.

[Pirate_King]

I've asked this in another thread, but no one answered...

is there a comprehensive list somewhere of exactly what counts as precision based? so far, I only know sneak attacks and favored enemy bonuses.