[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[Mephibosheth]

is there a comprehensive list somewhere of exactly what counts as precision based? so far, I only know sneak attacks and favored enemy bonuses.

As far as I know, sneak attack (Rogue, any number of other sources), skirmish (Scout), and sudden strike (Ninja) count as precision-based damage. Incidentally, I think that a Ranger's favored enemy bonus does not. Precision-based damage is effectively anything that creatures immune to critical hits are immune to, as far as I can tell. The three listed above are the big three.

[Ceiling009]

Well apart from those big three, it also means you can't crit right? Cause precision damage means hitting a vital spot; so without point blank blast, all non-weapon forms can't actually crit can they?

[dman11235]

Favored Enemy isn't precision based.

And no, I think you can still crit, but it's kind of iffy. I don't know. I'll think about it more after dinner.

Adding to the list: the Craven feat. And I think there's some more, but I don't know, I'll look into the various sources.

[ErrantX]

Earthen Stride as written

Spoiler

Show

• Running Snail: By shaping crude hemisphere of soil or mud around you feets and moving these swirly ''stilts'' like snails, or by sculpting yourself a stone tower as a full-round action, travelling is not bothersome anymore, nor enemy troops. You may now only move at your running speed, plus one time the normal speed bonus per 5 points you beat the DC. You may make overun attempts normally, and if you add +5 the DC of this seed, opponents may not try to avoid you. Your bulk and the earth you displace means you are one size larger than before, and you gain an additional bonus equal to +1 per 5 points of your check. You may use forced march while running, but must make constitution checks normally, to which you gain a bonus equal to +1 per 5 points of your check. You only have to do one check per hour to maintain the seed.

• Running Snail: By shaping crude hemisphere of soil or mud around you feet and moving these swirly ''stilts'' like snails, or by sculpting yourself a stone tower as a full-round action, the earthbender may now move for extended periods of time at an accelerated rate. The earthbender may now move at his base movement as if he were possessed the Run feat for 1 minute per earthbender level. The earthbender may improve his base speed by +10ft by increasing the DC of the form by +10. While moving in this manner, the earthbender is also considered a Large creature for the purposes of Overrun actions. When utilizing this power to make a forced march, the earthbender receives a circumstance bonus equal to the character's earthbender level.

I didn't write Running Snail (I think?), but that's my attempt. How's that for a clarification/rewrite?

-X

Edit: Fixed some of the wording per suggestions from dman11235.

[dman11235]

Here's what I think on the precision based stuff: either get rid of the crits or get rid of the feat and allow precision based damage from the get go. Really, what's the issue going to be balance wise?

For the running snail, how about just saying that you have the benefits of the Run feat while it's manipulated. It also needs a duration. One minute/BL? And for the bonus to forced march, just state that they get a bonus on concentration checks made for forced marching equal to their BL, rather than stating that they can (which the can if they can run).

[Ceiling009]

I don't know about removing either. I think it was understood that bender blasts can't crit (though I think Warlock blasts can), which kinda hampers them quite a bit (later in game I think, though seriously, at least 3 blasts of 5d6 or more per round really sort of balances it out), but the feat, I think needs it's BaB prereq lowered to +4, so that you can get the feat at least by level 6; or not much later if you're multi-classing. Also, since that blasts can't crit, that means even forms like Ice Shards can't actually crit, unless you've made a weapon with them; either daggers or short swords (yes I still believe that a waterbender should be allowed to make any melee and throw able weapon). Unless of course, you take point blank blast. It requires a feat investment, so the ability to crit versus something like extra seed becomes a real important choice.

[ErrantX]

Edited Running Snail a few posts back, check it out.

As far as blasts/precision damage, blasts can score critical hits (just like warlock blasts), and in theory there is reference in the show to this effect, example being in 208 The Chase when the Gaang corners Azula and she flips off a fire blast at Iroh and takes him down in one blast; if that's not a critical hit I don't know what is. Precision damage is explicitly mentioned in the blasts and that's where the feat comes in. Dai Li are specifically trained to be able to add precision damage to all of their earth blasts, as per Grasp of the Dai Li. They fire their stony fists/finger tips like cannon balls and bullets, very precise if you ask me.

-X

[Ceiling009]

Nope, blasts from what I remember when this started, was that they aren't able to crit at all. That's why Point Blank Blast was proposed and subsequently added in, due to the part where Azula basically speared Iroh with a lightning blast. And I think in the old Dai Li (1.0) write up, they also got special precision damage to their blasts, it was kinda weird (but in 1.0 I think blasts critted like warlocks). So I think it really needs to be explicitly stated somewhere that blasts can crit on a natural 20, and the feat Point Blank Blast, allows someone to add sneak attack, skirmish, or other extra precision based damage to the blast.

Also, thinking about this, though I think this should be in the Non-Canon content, how about feats to emulate weapon enhancements like wounding or keen?

Oh yeah, in the awakening, was it steam or was it mist that Katara managed to summon forth to give them cover?

[Pirate_King]

I'm pretty sure we've allowed crits for blasts in the playtest battles....

[dman11235]

Skipping everything really, except Earth Runner and the non-canon feats. I'll just watch the debate for now.

Running Whatever looks fine now, I don't think anything's missing.

Feats will be more heavily discussed in the non-canon section, but what about epic feats like Vorpal Strike and Keen Strike are for unarmed fighters? I decided that allowing weapon enhancements other than a +x would not be balanced, and wouldn't make sense. Though we can still debate it. See you over there.

[Pirate_King]

Have you looked at the non-magical item enhancement thread? it's got a number of viable weapon and armor enhancements that seem pretty valid and possible in a non-magic world.

[dman11235]

??? What thread is this?

[Pirate_King]

the link in my sig goes to the hub for this project, theres a link to items and machinery, and you can get to the enhancement system from there. alternately, meph has been compiling stuff here. This is rather long-lived project, I only came in half way through.

[dman11235]

Oh! I thought you were referring to something completely different. I'll get to the items and stuff after feats. And before monsters. But I should say that classes and PrCs are my specialty, I don't have anywhere near as much experience with feats, items, and monsters. I can still catch some errors though.

EDIT: But not until after I get some work done on my project. I want my project done in...three weeks. Not that it will be.

[Guyr Adamantine]

No, I get what the seed is trying to represent. I just don't get the mechanic it's using. It involves multiplying the base speed (or base running speed, not sure which) by something to determine how quickly a character can move with the seed, and it's very confusing. I was hoping the original author could clarify so we can work out some clearer language.

This is awkward... I wrote Running Snail, and I failed at clearly explaining it. Here's a more in-depth description:

• Running Snail: By shaping crude hemisphere of soil or mud around you feets and moving these swirly ''stilts'' like snails, or by sculpting yourself a stone tower as a full-round action, travelling is not bothersome anymore, nor enemy troops.(It is activated as a full-round action.) You may now only move at your running speed, and the benefits of the Run feat(You can only move at running speed, and you gain the benefits of the Run feat. If you already had it, you running speed while using Running Snail is six time higher instead of five times, as per Run.), plus one time the normal speed bonus per 5 points you beat the DC.You may make overun attempts normally, and if you add +5 the DC of this seed, opponents may not try to avoid you. Your bulk and the earth you displace means you are one size larger than before, and you gain an additional bonus equal to +1 per 5 points of your check to your overrun attempt. You may use forced march while using Running Snail, but must make constitution checks normally, to which you gain a bonus equal to +1 per 5 points of your check. You only have to do one check per hour to maintain the seed.

Bolded parts are either corrections or explanations. I know ErrantX did a new one, but I hope you consider simply correcting (And simplifying) mine and its wording.

BTW: I'm back baby! I couldn't post for a while, but I'm to annoy you all once again!

Tremblez devant mon anglais parfois peu clair!

[dman11235]

Hey, I always take the original and fix it rather than a new one. Unless the original is so bad you might as well start over (which is what it was).

You fail to address some of the more confusing aspects of the seed. What the heck does "plus one time the normal speed bonus per 5 points you beat the DC." mean?

[Guyr Adamantine]

Hey, I always take the original and fix it rather than a new one. Unless the original is so bad you might as well start over (which is what it was).

You fail to address some of the more confusing aspects of the seed. What the heck does "plus one time the normal speed bonus per 5 points you beat the DC." mean?

Ah, but that refers to the line before, that ''you gain the benefits of the Run feat''. What does Run do? It bosst your running speed from 4x to 5x your base speed. Running Snail only augment it further. So, for example, with a 27 Earthbending check, your run speed would be 6x your base speed. With 30 check, it would be 7x, etc...

[dman11235]

I would change that to be a flat boost in base land speed instead, a +5 foot bonus to base land speed. At least change the wording to "the multiplier increases by" rather than saying plus one time, which indicates a measure of, well, time.

I'll deal with it more later, I've got other work to do.

[Pirate_King]

Ah, but that refers to the line before, that ''you gain the benefits of the Run feat''. What does Run do? It bosst your running speed from 4x to 5x your base speed. Running Snail only augment it further. So, for example, with a 27 Earthbending check, your run speed would be 6x your base speed. With 30 check, it would be 7x, etc...

you should probably cap that somewhere.

[Guyr Adamantine]

you should probably cap that somewhere.

Since this system doesn't *seem* to cap any seed, I'd rather not. But, the most logical way to retaliate to this problem is to hamper the bender. Say it augments at higher checks than slices of 5 (10, for example.) and it should be ok.

[Pirate_King]

I can't think of any others at the moment, but the firebending seed intensity adds a maximum of the firebenders fireblast damage to a source of fire.

[s3phr4q]

I know this is a bit off topic from what you have been speaking about, but I believe it's a very important, yet easy thing to do - In the "Overbending" section it mentions a bender has the choice to force the bending. I have no problem with this, except I believe this should be declared before the roll/bending check.

This way you don't have people randomly going "Oh, I missed it by 1 DC... GRRR... ok, I'll just choose to force it anyway" This mitigates that issue by forcing them to choose if the character would force the action through their will before they attempt the bend (as one would probably choose to do in the midst of combat). This also addresses the idea that if an attack would have devastated someone, yet it was only missed by 1 DC, and forcing the action makes or breaks the fight - it makes it so you choose to take the forceful action BEFORE you know if you were successful or not. (Maybe this is just my personal preference, but I think it's lame if you can choose AFTER you roll.)

There's also one more issue that might need to be addressed here - it doesn't say anything about forcing moves that one DOES NOT KNOW... although I assume this is covered elsewhere, since it is not explicitly stated in this section some might try to use it as a loop hole to do some AWESOME BENDING without the character skill or knowledge to do so... Basically, I'm just trying to avoid argument between someone's misinterpretation as a player and the DM.

Anyway, that's an initial thought. Hope it helps.

s3phr4q

[Pirate_King]

There's also one more issue that might need to be addressed here - it doesn't say anything about forcing moves that one DOES NOT KNOW... although I assume this is covered elsewhere, since it is not explicitly stated in this section some might try to use it as a loop hole to do some AWESOME BENDING without the character skill or knowledge to do so... Basically, I'm just trying to avoid argument between someone's misinterpretation as a player and the DM.

Anyway, that's an initial thought. Hope it helps.

s3phr4q

...huh? there's a seeds known list, a character can only do the seeds that they know, is that what you're talking about?

as for overbending before knowing the roll, DM's always got the last call, just make it clear when you run the thing. it's a perfectly reasonable house rule, but it's not necessarily cheese when you can decide to just fail a check, or push further for the cost of fatigue or more; it's a question of whether you just let the move drop or push a bit harder. the martial artists who have worked on this setting have made a pretty convincing argument.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Overbending can hurt a lot, considering the DCs some Forms can take.

If you can bring more points, perhaps it could be modified.


BTW: Has any of you tried to put an ''Avatar d20'' search on Google? We're the frickin 4th on the list! I mean, am I the only guy who thinks it sucks that this project, the most developped and interesting, get beat to the 4th place by the Wizard Forums' poorly thought homebrew? (All the classes are a monk rip-off! Their Airbender gets Flurry of Blows, for God's sake! How can they sleep at night?)

[Darkbane]

Well, right now we're third on the list. Send out more threads! Consume the wizards homebrew! Mwahahahaha!

Although yeah, that does suck.

[Pirate_King]

BTW: Has any of you tried to put an ''Avatar d20'' search on Google? We're the frickin 4th on the list! I mean, am I the only guy who thinks it sucks that this project, the most developped and interesting, get beat to the 4th place by the Wizard Forums' poorly thought homebrew? (All the classes are a monk rip-off! Their Airbender gets Flurry of Blows, for God's sake! How can they sleep at night?)

I've been looking over the pdf for their version, and it's got an easier to use but considerably less versatile system. It's kind of nifty on it's own, but doesn't seem to be true to the show in some aspects. The way the chi system works is pretty limiting; some of the basic abilities we have been attributing to manipulate(like move earth or open flame) are given their own chi power. Some powers (stone speak? wtf?) don't even make any sense. it's as though they got the element concept and left the rest of the show alone.
Basically, their system creates monks who have access to what are essentially spells, and chi points seem to work like spell points that can regenerate in a couple hours. I can't quite tell how balanced it is by reading it, but for the most part it seems like an interesting system, but does not deserve to be called "Avatar" because of some of it's extremely non-canon chi powers. They've basically made bending more like magic than it should be.

[Ceiling009]

I think the WotC version... it's really ground more into base mechanics. I really like either warlock version, or the current version a lot more (the gitp version), due to how for people who have watched the show, and want to play, it allows a lot more the... as one my players wanted to do... "freeze their pants solid" type things.

[dman11235]

I did some work on that version, and it has its pluses and its minuses over this system. For one, it's not a skill based mechanic, which is a plus (see Truenamer for a really good example of why skill based mechanics rarely if ever work). Truth be told, that is the biggest problem with this system. However, the other system has a terrible chi mechanic. It's so untrue to the show it's not even funny. Well, okay, it's a little funny. Point is, their system doesn't work very well at all. BTW, it's quite underpowered. The chi points are too limited. If there were more per time frame, it would be better.

Also, I get this project as the second one down. Well, third if you count the indented result.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Please excuse me dman11235, my post may have rubbed you the wrong way. Since you participated in it, perhaps I looked a real ass. I agree a skill-based system isn't the best way to work a class, but it helps for a free-form system. I think that the DCs being in the hands of the players prevents the classes from becoming ''Truenamer Wannabees'' kind of failure.

It's so untrue to the show it's not even funny. Well, okay, it's a little funny. Point is, their system doesn't work very well at all. BTW, it's quite underpowered. The chi points are too limited. If there were more per time frame, it would be better.

These classes' feat dependency makes me cry too.

[dman11235]

Not at all. I didn't make it, I just helped review it a little bit (like I do with all homebrews I take under my wing). In fact, I agree with you on pretty much everything you said.

Do note that while skill based mechanics are really hard to get to work, this mechanic is a long shot ahead of the WotC version. At first I was wary of this project, because it was more complex, but then after I read through it all, well, it turns out it's much smoother than the other one. You guys did a pretty dang good job with this one. Within the setting there is no problem, and outside of the setting there is the issue of competence bonus rings, but that at least isn't a necessity in order to function well. It'll just make you really powerful. And that's not really an issue, since everyone else will also have more magic items to use, and it all gets better, so there's probably no problem there either.

EDIT: What feat dependency? I don't see much of a feat dependency with these classes.