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  1. - Top - End - #601
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    yeah, I wouldn't say we're dependent on the feats. most of the bending feats (aside from the study feats) seem more appropriate for multi-class benders, anyway.
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  2. - Top - End - #602
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Good then.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    EDIT: What feat dependency? I don't see much of a feat dependency with these classes.
    All the interesting abilities are feats, and you only get 3 bonus during your career, so you have to shoot yourself in the foot to get more dashing powers.

    (''Feat Dependency'' probably isn't the right term, so perhaps we could call it ''Crap-Tastic Ability Nerfing''. Way better.)
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  3. - Top - End - #603
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I think that these classes are perfectly dependent on feats. They can live without them, so the feats they choose help define the character, rather than make the character possible (or viable). I mean, I can make a decent bending character without using any feats what so ever. Now I can add feats from here and make him more unique. Perfect balance right there.
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    ...But you have never given any bad advice as far as I have seen. Not to mention, unlike some other people I see around here, you actually know what your talking about.

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  4. - Top - End - #604
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Are we talking of the WotC's benders?
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  5. - Top - End - #605
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    No, our benders. The WotC benders are extremely feat dependent iirc.
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    Quote Originally Posted by DonThelonious
    ...But you have never given any bad advice as far as I have seen. Not to mention, unlike some other people I see around here, you actually know what your talking about.

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  6. - Top - End - #606
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    No, our benders. The WotC benders are extremely feat dependent iirc.
    It's what I meant the whole time. You see:
    Quote Originally Posted by Guyr Adamantine
    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235
    It's so untrue to the show it's not even funny. Well, okay, it's a little funny. Point is, their system doesn't work very well at all. BTW, it's quite underpowered. The chi points are too limited. If there were more per time frame, it would be better.
    These classes' feat dependency makes me cry too.
    I only wanted to add to your critic by pointing how feat dependent they are. Our bender rocks.
    Last edited by Guyr Adamantine; 2008-05-11 at 11:24 PM.
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  7. - Top - End - #607
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    ah. well, then we have spent eight posts arguing over something we agree on.

    This happens to me far too often...
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  8. - Top - End - #608
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    *Lassoes thread. Hauls it back on track*

    I just want to confirm a few things before I edit the website.

    First, are people in favor of the following version of Fire Kick?

    Fire Kick (Template)
    Base DC: +10

    By using quick and powerful kicks to propel his Fire Blast, a firebender can greatly increase the range and power of his abilities.
    Applications: Applying this seed doubles the firebender's effective bending range for the purpose of that firebending seed. This range increase takes effect after determining the firebender’s bending range based on a high Firebending skill check. The seed also allows the firebender to use his Fire Blasts while his hands are full or immobilized. Note that this template cannot be applied to any form that cannot be performed with the feet (such as by applying another template involving a body part or when stuck in a waterbender’s Steady Stance). Finally, the damage dealt by the seed increases by +1d6 when Fire Kick is applied. This bonus to damage increases by +1d6 for every 15 by which a firebender’s skill check exceeds the base DC.
    Second, are people in favor of eliminating the Break Stance firebending seed and replacing it with the following feat?

    Break Stance [general]
    You know how to attack to unbalance a bender, reducing his ability to bend effectively.
    Prerequisites: BAB +6, Knowledge (Bending) 3 ranks
    Benefit: When executing an unarmed strike or a targeted bending seed, you may attempt to break your opponent's stance and hinder his ability to bend. Attempting to do so requires a successful attack roll at a -4 penalty. If you hit with this attack, your opponent is rendered flat-footed, pushed back 5 feet, and takes a -5 penalty to all Bending skill checks. Additionally, your opponent must make a Reflex save or be considered dazed for one round and take a -4 penalty to checks made to resist trip, bull rush, or overrun attempts.
    Special: A fighter may select Break Stance as one of his fighter bonus feats.
    Third, are people in favor of the following version of Earthen Stride?

    Earthen Stride
    Base DC: 20

    By lifting the ground under your feets into two mounds of soil or a huge rock, you gain considerable speed and inertia, changing into an unstoppable juggernaut.
    Running Snail: By shaping crude hemisphere of soil or mud around her feet and moving these swirly ''stilts'' like snails, the earthbender may now move for extended periods of time at an accelerated rate. Forming these “stilts” is a full-round action. The earthbender may now run for 1 minute per earthbender level. Additionally, the earthbender’s running speed is increased as if she had the Run feat. The earthbender may improve her base speed by +10ft by increasing the DC of the form by +10. While moving in this manner, the earthbender is also considered a Large creature for the purposes of Overrun actions. When utilizing this power to make a forced march, the earthbender receives a circumstance bonus equal to the character's earthbender level to Constitution checks to continue the forced march.
    Earth Jump: Using this seed, an Earthbender can transport herself through the earth to any point within 25 feet. The Earthbender’s starting and ending points must be connected by a contiguous area of earth or stone at least 5 feet thick at all points. For every 5 by which the Earthbender’s skill check exceeds the base DC, the distance she can travel increases by 5 feet. Additionally, by increasing the base DC by 20, an Earthbender can use this seed as a Move action.
    On the overbending issue brought up by s3phr4q, I’m fine with requiring a player to declare before rolling whether his/her character will overbend in the event of a failure. What says the group?

    Finally, when I search avatar d20 on google, the discussion threads for this project come up second and the website comes up 8th. If you search “avatar d20” (quotes being the key difference), our project discussion threads come up first and the website comes up 4th (discounting indented results). I’m always interested in any input for search engine optimization to improve our website’s google result. Feel free to post them, PM me, or email the site’s email address. Bear in mind that I have no knowledge of html or other coding languages, which is why I’m using googlepages instead of simply making our own webpage.

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  9. - Top - End - #609
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth View Post
    *Lassoes thread. Hauls it back on track*
    Sorry for the derailing, Meph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth
    I just want to confirm a few things before I edit the website.

    First, are people in favor of the following version of Fire Kick?
    Looks good on paper, we'll have to check the math in play.


    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth
    Second, are people in favor of eliminating the Break Stance firebending seed and replacing it with the following feat?
    I like it that way, it brings new options to all benders.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth
    Third, are people in favor of the following version of Earthen Stride?
    I'll go with the other votes. (You've kicked my baby out you bastard!)



    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth
    On the overbending issue brought up by s3phr4q, I’m fine with requiring a player to declare before rolling whether his/her character will overbend in the event of a failure. What says the group?
    I say yes. Small steps on the path of balance makes a long way.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth
    Finally, when I search avatar d20 on google, the discussion threads for this project come up second and the website comes up 8th. If you search “avatar d20” (quotes being the key difference), our project discussion threads come up first and the website comes up 4th (discounting indented results). I’m always interested in any input for search engine optimization to improve our website’s google result. Feel free to post them, PM me, or email the site’s email address. Bear in mind that I have no knowledge of html or other coding languages, which is why I’m using googlepages instead of simply making our own webpage.

    Mephibosheth
    On mine, this project is third on the list, after the WotC projects.
    Last edited by Guyr Adamantine; 2008-05-12 at 01:52 PM. Reason: Forgot one reply.
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  10. - Top - End - #610
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I'm on board with that Fire Kick, Break Stance, and Earthen Stride.

    I say let the benders decide afterwards whether or not to overbend. I mean, it's kind of like lifting weights, if something is too much for you to lift properly, you can still go ahead and do it or you can drop the weight. If you go ahead and do it, you put a large strain on your heart and muscles, potentially causing harm.
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  11. - Top - End - #611
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I'm on board with Fire Kick, Break Stance, and Earthen Stride.

    Re Overbending, I think I actually prefer letting benders choose to overbend after they know they failed and by how much.

  12. - Top - End - #612
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    ditto on the Fire Kick and Earthen Stride, though wasn't there a suggestion of firekick having a higher threat range? (and what was the final word on blasts critting at all? I was sure we've allowed it before...)

    I think overbending should stay as written, and the rule takes little enough space that a variant clause could be added should the DM consider it unbalanced.
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  13. - Top - End - #613
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    On crits: if we don't allow precision damage, I'd strongly advise not allowing crits. If we allow crits, I'd strongly advise allowing precision damage as well. There is no precedence for having something allow crits but no precision based damage. And what will it hurt to allow precision based damage, multi-classing hurts you?
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    ...But you have never given any bad advice as far as I have seen. Not to mention, unlike some other people I see around here, you actually know what your talking about.

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  14. - Top - End - #614
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235 View Post
    On crits: if we don't allow precision damage, I'd strongly advise not allowing crits. If we allow crits, I'd strongly advise allowing precision damage as well. There is no precedence for having something allow crits but no precision based damage. And what will it hurt to allow precision based damage, multi-classing hurts you?
    I'm fine with this. What says the playground?
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Really the only precedence to not allowing precision damage was we never have before. What was the original reason?

    edit: I suppose it would be rather hard to sneak attack with a fireball... but it would not be hard to crit. I think the distinction makes sense in this case.
    Last edited by Pirate_King; 2008-05-13 at 09:45 AM.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Pirate_King View Post
    Really the only precedence to not allowing precision damage was we never have before. What was the original reason?
    I don't think there really was one, other than the fact that the bending blasts as depicted in the show are usually large and can seem rather imprecise. I can't really remember a definite a reason.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I don't really remember why either... but I do remember it being a issue, especially when I ran a game using the not yet finalized system. But, I'd allow the blasts to crit, especially if Warlock Eldritch Blasts can crit; so that means if you ever multiclassed rogue/bender, your blasts within 30ft could carry sneak attack damage. Then Point Blank Blast needs to be... modified.

  18. - Top - End - #618
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I think that the fact that it would terribly difficult to sneak attack with a fireblast needs to be addressed. There's clearly a difference between criting and precision damage. Precision can cause a crit, but that's not the only thing.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I think that in the show they can control it well enough to get SA, SS, and skirmish damage on it.....they just don't have the training to do so. And we know that crits are possible: Azula hit Iroh in the shoulder: crit. I'm sure careful pruning will reveal more.

    In this case, that feat can just be eliminated. Besides, I think a feat that makes multi-classing actually possible is tacky at best. It can aid in multi-classing, but it shouldn't be a necessity. Also, since you are sacrificing bending levels to gain SA, you are weakening your bending, thus balancing it out, possibly a little too much.
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  20. - Top - End - #620
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Everything that requires an attack roll can deal a critical on a 20, even if not specified. (Be it rays, manufactured weapons or claws.)

    If blasts can't do criticals, but are described as ''usually large and rather imprecise'', than dodging them should require a reflex save, don't you think?

    Unless blasts become saving-throw attacks, ''precision damage'' should be allowed.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Yes. And also remember that in D&D, you can sneak attack a human with a large house if you could attack with a house, and were either flanking the human or caught the human FF. Not going to be too hard to catch the human FF with a house though, how could he possibly see that coming? You hit him with a house!
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Seems like the consensus is to allow precision damage. I'll edit the website. I should really update the first couple posts of this thread one of these days, shouldn't I...
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I was play testing the new firekick in a L7 oneshot, and there was almost no reason to not be using it at a level where a DC15 is incredibly easy. perhaps we should limit firekick to once per round, or maybe only once per attack allowed by BAB, so Firestorm/Rapid shot couldn't be a bunch of kicks. Or possibly raise the DC for every consecutive kick.

    on a slightly unrelated note, bending blasts provoke AoO's as other ranged attacks do, yes?
    Last edited by Pirate_King; 2008-05-15 at 10:23 AM.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Pirate_King View Post
    I was play testing the new firekick in a L7 oneshot, and there was almost no reason to not be using it at a level where a DC15 is incredibly easy. perhaps we should limit firekick to once per round, or maybe only once per attack allowed by BAB, so Firestorm/Rapid shot couldn't be a bunch of kicks. Or possibly raise the DC for every consecutive kick.
    The more I think about it, the more I think this problem is unavoidable for a firebender, given that their abilities boil down to pretty much "deal fire damage" and "deal more fire damage." In my mind, the same is true of Blue Fire, Explosion, and Intensity (so...every firebender template seed except Breath of the Dragon). I don't really have a problem with this, other than the fact that the show depicts firebenders mixing kicks and punches. Perhaps reducing the number of attacks a firebender can make while using the seed by one (minimum one) or imposing an attack roll penalty, but other than that, I can't really think of any way to fix this.

    Quote Originally Posted by Pirate_King View Post
    on a slightly unrelated note, bending blasts provoke AoO's as other ranged attacks do, yes?
    Yes.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I think firekick, as newly updated is fine as it is. There isn't any better particular ways to add damage, short of going into a massive DC of firekick, blue fire, and the like... and even then, I don't think it does much more. I don't think it's anymore unbalancing really.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    How about a -2 penalty to attack when using fire kick? This follows many other templates for more damage/extra attacks/etc.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    What if we say that a firebender can't use his Firestorm ability when using the Fire Kick seed? Then we can create a moderate- to high-prerequisite feat that allows it.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I like Meph's, but the clause should encompass both firestorm and Rapid Shot.

    although a feat that is really only good for one bender seems weird, so we could combine it with dman's suggestion, and state the following in the seed:

    A Firebender may increase the number of blasts using firekick with the Rapid Shot feat and Firestorm ability, but each of these extra attacks incurs an accumulative -2 penalty which stack with the normal penalties of those abilities.
    Last edited by Pirate_King; 2008-05-16 at 08:35 AM.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Wait, the seed is firekick, and the feat is Break Stance. This is a firebender only thing.
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    Mephibosheth's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235 View Post
    Wait, the seed is firekick, and the feat is Break Stance. This is a firebender only thing.
    I think Pirate_King is referencing my suggestion of a feat that would allow a firebender to use his Firestorm ability or the Rapid Shot feat with the Fire Kick seed. The Break Stance feat is open to anyone.

    I don't really have a problem with feats tailored to specific bending classes. Despite the similar rules that govern them, the show presents the bending disciplines as different ability sets with distinct martial philosophies. A feat that allows a firebender to use Firestorm or Rapid Shot with is very much in appropriate given firebending's focus on fast, overwhelming, and powerful offense.

    Also, spoilers for The Boiling Rock, in case anyone hasn't seen it yet:

    Spoiler
    Show
    Here's a suggestion for a firebending seed to replicate Azula's high-flying moves in The Boiling Rock:

    Fire Jets
    Base DC: 15

    Concentrated bursts of fire extend from the firebenders hands and the bottom of his feet, allowing him to momentarily defy gravity.
    • By making a jump as a full-round action, a firebender gains a bonus to his Jump check equal to his Firebending check. Also, this jump is not limited by the firebender's height. In addition, a firebender can use this seed to propel himself rapidly when suspended from a rope, cable, or similar object. The firebender may move forward or backward along the rope at a speed of 40 ft per round. This speed increases by 5 ft per round for every 10 by which the firebender's skill check exceeds the base DC.
    Yes, it's mostly a blatant rip-off of Airbender's Leap, but the two abilities are functionally the same in the show anyways. One just relies on something like jet propulsion. I'm also worried about the "movement along a rope" application. I feel like it's abuseable. Am I just being paranoid? Any suggestions for making it more difficult to abuse?

    Mephibosheth
    Last edited by Mephibosheth; 2008-05-16 at 09:21 AM.
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