[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[Guyr Adamantine]

Mmmm... I think I'll put mine, Meph. I just don't like yours.

Spoiler

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Fire Jets
Base DC: 15
Concentrated bursts of fire extend from the firebenders hands and the bottom of his feet, allowing him to momentarily defy gravity.
• By making a jump as a full-round action, a firebender gains a bonus to his Jump check equal to his Firebending check. Also, this jump is not limited by the firebender's height. In addition, a firebender can use this seed to propel himself rapidly when in mid-air, such suspended from a rope, cable, or similar object. The firebender may move forward or backward along the rope at the distance of his modified jump check.

[Mephibosheth]

So, the firebender moves along the rope at a speed per round equal to the distance the firebender would be able to jump (assuming a long jump)? I can live with that, I guess. What says the community?

[Ceiling009]

I think I like Meph's more, cause it has more concrete numbers; and Azula does basically move along the cable more than she could jump.

See, it's already bad enough for Firebenders to get rapid shot, and firestorm, but additional -2 to a total of -6 with fire kick also? If it involves more than two feats to get what seem almost like a quintessential firebender, I'm against it. a -6 is huge penalty for a class that a +15 total in base attack. If anything, give the Firebender something like Greater Firestorm, to at least drop that -2, cause it's situational as it is to even get that extra attack (it must only be a fireblast). I don't think Firekick should incur any penalties to attack, since you have to add to at least 10 to any DC with that template attached. With auto 30's in later levels, at level 7 (38's are easy taking a 10), you still only do like...4d6 three times with firestorm and rapid shot. You're already getting a -4 from that. so then your attacks would be 1/1/1; what are you going hit at level 7 with 1's as your attac bonus (that would -1's if you wanted apply that additional -2)? Waterbenders, using Ice Shards and Blast get up to 7d6 half cold damage per round; at their highest base attack bonus.

[Guyr Adamantine]

So, the firebender moves along the rope at a speed per round equal to the distance the firebender would be able to jump (assuming a long jump)? I can live with that, I guess. What says the community?

One thing to remember is that the firebender should not be able to make a running start, so the distance would be halved.

Also, this move should get past the regular ''you go up in height equal to a quarter of the distance you travel during your jump.''

[Guyr Adamantine]

I think I like Meph's more, cause it has more concrete numbers; and Azula does basically move along the cable more than she could jump.

It is meant to emulate the sustained power of a Burning Rush: Firebender's Leap seed. The firebender does the same ''missile propulsion'' thing, but in the air, along a cable.

Also, I just dislike adding a ''Cable Sliding Speed'' to the game.

[Ceiling009]

that more I look at Burning Rush, I think the Fire Jets seeds is more a variation or a creative use of Burning Rush.

[Mephibosheth]

that more I look at Burning Rush, I think the Fire Jets seeds is more a variation or a creative use of Burning Rush.

Yeah, I just saw that. I don't know why I didn't notice it before. I think that this whole seed is unnecessary, and the cable sliding can be accounted for by DM/player cooperation.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Yeah, I just saw that. I don't know why I didn't notice it before. I think that this whole seed is unnecessary, and the cable sliding can be accounted for by DM/player cooperation.

My point exactly, just make it a footnote under Firebender's Leap.

[Ceiling009]

So how about that -2 on firekick? I'm quite against it.

[Mephibosheth]

To clarify the issue on Fire Kick, here's my proposal:

We modify the seed as follows (changes in bold):

Fire Kick (Template)
Base DC: +10
By using quick and powerful kicks to propel his Fire Blast, a firebender can greatly increase the range and power of his abilities.
• Applications: Applying this seed doubles the firebender's effective bending range for the purpose of that firebending seed. This range increase takes effect after determining the firebender’s bending range based on a high Firebending skill check. The seed also allows the firebender to use his Fire Blasts while his hands are full or immobilized. Note that this template cannot be applied to any form that cannot be performed with the feet (such as by applying another template involving a body part or when stuck in a waterbender’s Steady Stance). Finally, the damage dealt by the seed increases by +1d6 when Fire Kick is applied. This bonus to damage increases by +1d6 for every 15 by which a firebender’s skill check exceeds the base DC. When using this seed, a firebender cannot benefit from extra attacks granted by the Rapid Shot feat or the Firestorm class ability.

Then, I propose a feat with text resembling the following:

FLURRY OF KICKS [Bending]
Prerequisites: Firebending 12 ranks, ability to use the Fire Kick seed
Benefit: When applying the Fire Kick seed to your Fire Blasts, you can benefit from extra attacks granted by the Rapid Shot feat or the Firestorm class ability.

That's my proposal. What says the community?

Mephibosheth

[Ceiling009]

I'm alright with that. How about a feat for something like Greater Firestorm?

[dman11235]

I'm not too fond of feats that every one in that class will take or else they are silly people. That version of Firekick would be one of them.

I'm a fan of a -2 penalty. Sure that's a lot of penalties. It just means that you need to be smart in when and how you attack. If your enemy has a low AC, use all of them. If a high, use fewer, or even none. If it's so high you need a 19 or 20 anyways, use all of them, and make that nat 20 hurt like heck. Also, this can be taken at low levels, where as the others might not be present. So this is a boost from level 1, and the others are boosts at later levels. And I have seen some that take just as bad of penalties, and they work just fine. You just might not want to do it in a CharOp campaign.

[Ceiling009]

That feat is seriously for players who want multiple strikes, there are much better ways to get about getting more damage or even doing more efficiently especially with a Fire Bender. But it's such a waste of use since the penalties against it's use will just out right limit it from being used, with that -2 penalty. Soon as you get you ever second attack from iterative attacks, you're in the negatives to hit. What's the point of ever actually doing a full firekick, rapid shot, firestorm? Even at level 20, it's be 9/9/9/4/-1; and decent level 20 monsters or even other benders will just laugh at the fact that maybe 3 or less of those will ever be successful.

Actually with almost all the feats put into rapid shot to improved rapid shot, while that -2 stands from the Firekick, you'll be 11/11/11/6/1. Still not worth it. I'm perfectly happy with the current restriction of firestorm, unless you use a feat. Cause then it's actually quite a viable multi-strike character. That extra statistically higher second attack, is going to be far more useful over all.

[Pirate_King]

I'm with Dman; with no bonus feats, any firebender who takes firekick will almost certainly take the feat as well, mostly because at later levels, adding 2 or even 3d6 to multiple blasts with a high skill check is very shiny. hm. its a DC 45 to make a firekick do 3d6 extra damage. Well, maybe requiring a feat is more fair. What hurts more, losing a feat or losing attack bonus?

[Guyr Adamantine]

Well, maybe requiring a feat is more fair. What hurts more, losing a feat or losing attack bonus?

*Jumps off his chair, his arm up high toward the sky.*

Me Sir! Please!

At high level, the penalty will be easily ignored, but feats are an highly limited resource, even more so in a low-magic seting!

[Pirate_King]

*Jumps off his chair, his arm up high toward the sky.*

Me Sir! Please!

At high level, the penalty will be easily ignored, but feats are an highly limited resource, even more so in a low-magic seting!

Thank you, 50 points to Gryffindor

[jagadaishio]

I have two questions which really don't seem to have any answers on the googlepages page.

1. Can the avatar contain seeds from two different bending styles? For example, a flaming (firebender) tornado with hurricane force winds (airbender) spewing clouds of dust and shards of rock everywhere (earthbender). If so, what would they have to roll in order to make it happen, and what would the various DCs be?

2. Given that the number of seeds known is normally equal to (level/2)+1, what happens at epic levels? For example, a thirtieth level firebender, if the progression remains the same, should know 16 seeds, but there are only 15 that they don't get automatically. Also, how do the other various class features progress into higher levels, such as energy resistance and speeds?

[Pirate_King]

the avatar could probably create forms using different elemental seeds just like any other form, the combined dc +4, though I imagine templates would only work with the appropriate element.

as for epic levels, I think ErrantX had some ideas for epic seeds, though it could have been someone else.

[jagadaishio]

the avatar could probably create forms using different elemental seeds just like any other form, the combined dc +4, though I imagine templates would only work with the appropriate element.

But do you think that they would have to hit the DC of the form with each of their separate bending skills, or would they resolve each component separately? For example, would the full DC need to be hit on a firebending check, an airbending check, and an earthbending check, or would they make a firebending check for the fire portion, an earthbending check for the earth portion, and an airbending check for the air portion? There is no real system for mixed elemental forms, so I'm curious as to what everyone's opinion on it is.

[Pirate_King]

hm... I did not think of that. perhaps an average of the modifier in both skills involved?

[Ceiling009]

It would probably be best to just make the avatar's bending based on one skill, they choose a skill out of the 4, and make it work for all of them.

I'd rather lose feats, versus penalties that will never go away.

[Darkbane]

As I recall, the last time it came up, cross-element combinations were specifically disallowed. However, I never really understood that. I do like Ceiling's suggestion: how about revamping the skill system so that "Bending" is one skill, and taking levels in a bending class lets you use bending for that element only? That way, the Avatar--or a dual-classed bender, in a non-canon setting--can easily figure out DC's for multi-element forms.

[jagadaishio]

As I recall, the last time it came up, cross-element combinations were specifically disallowed. However, I never really understood that. I do like Ceiling's suggestion: how about revamping the skill system so that "Bending" is one skill, and taking levels in a bending class lets you use bending for that element only? That way, the Avatar--or a dual-classed bender, in a non-canon setting--can easily figure out DC's for multi-element forms.

In that situation it would not be so much that there is 'firebending' or 'waterbending,' but bending with fire seeds or water seeds. That actually makes some real sense. Remember when the guru dude said that the divisions between the elements are just illusions? As long as multiclassing between bending classes is disallowed, there will be no mixing of elements for anyone other than the Avatar.

That said, an avatar who is a master airbender and a novice waterbender would only have a limited number of seeds, but no less skill in waterbending than a master. What seeds they have, they would be able to use exceedingly well. That is the largest problem with this.

[Pirate_King]

eh, in the show, Aang is clearly better at air than water, and better at water than earth, and not really that great at fire. It fits the cannon to be better at some elements than others. Though, it does sort of hurt the playability if we have to determine some kind of average; do we sacrifice something we know is cannon to simplify the system?

[Ceiling009]

I say yes to losing a little canon for actual simplicity. It's not like Aang is actually better or worse than Katara at waterbending, he actually first out classed her, then later got to being at least on par with her. In avatar state, it's a moot point though. I think what should be done, for at least is that bending should be just be "Bending (Wis)", and those who do allow multi element, or dual element, give a bonus of like +3 to their primary element. So a Waterbender/Firebender, would have the same ranks in both elements, but gets an additional +3 to their primary... But, that's kinda silly. Actually the better thought, would be if you did allow that, there should be a feat for it? or abolish it all together. It's probably more about the lack of seeds, since aang doesn't know a of waterbending or earthbending forms, but he never really lacks any control or ability when using the ones he does learn.

[Thistle]

Ok, I've read through the thread and felt there wasn't really a resolution on the subject of lava bending. So I decided to bring it up.

First off I think we should resolve which element it is. While most lava bending has been preformed by avatars I feel it has a strong association with fire. In the episode of "The Avatar State" in is shown in the sequence demonstrating the powerful forms able to be executed by each element as the fire bending example.
During the Day of Black Sun an obstacle of a lava pit is seen and yet Toph is unable to help with the situation. No other way across is shown, so I assume the firebenders have a way to bend it safely.
It seems possible to use quench, as shown by Firelord Sozin in “The Avatar and the Firelord”.
The secret tunnels in Roku’s temple were carved using lava bending. While not strictly a firebender, it seems likely that Roku would use fire bending when building his sanctuary.
Avatar Kyoshi uses the technique when separating Kyoshi Island in “Avatar Day”. Is there anyone that can look at the movements she uses and give an opinion on what style she uses? I don’t know enough about martial arts to know what to look for.
Given most of these examples I would say earthbenders should be unable to bend lava.

As a side note: Do we even want to create a lava bending seed? Lava by DnD mechanics is powerful and deadly. Perhaps this should wait till we have an idea of seed mechanics, but is there anyway we can make lava bending balanced?

[ErrantX]

the avatar could probably create forms using different elemental seeds just like any other form, the combined dc +4, though I imagine templates would only work with the appropriate element.

as for epic levels, I think ErrantX had some ideas for epic seeds, though it could have been someone else.

It could have been me, I dunno, I've suggested some pretty wacky stuff.

To address my thoughts on the currently raised topics:

1) From what we've seen, Aang has yet to bend multiple elements together to achieve an effect. We have seen him use multiple elements rapidly, one right after the other, but that's the closest I think we've seen. I'm pretty firmly in Mephishobeth's camp of staying as close to canon as possible, so I'd say that the Avatar probably couldn't bend multiple elements together, except for when he's in the Avatar State. The Avatar State is the blending of the skills, talents and minds of all previous Avatars, it seems reasonable.

2) A single bending skill wouldn't be all that awful to implement, as it only directly affects the Avatar to have separate skills. I say Go Team! on that one.

3) Lavabending... oh this tricksy topic. This monster I personally feel should fall into the realm of the Firebender, but we've only seen Avatars doing anything with it so... it could be the exclusive province of the Avatar State then? If I had to choose which of the four, I'd choose Firebender.

-X

[Pirate_King]

We have not seen lavabending. no one has done it. Even when Roku creates lava in the solstice episode, he does not manipulate it like a waterbender does water, it flows in the path he creates for it. I think we can safely say we cannot finely manipulate lava.

[Ceiling009]

I think we have seen Lavabending. In the Avatar State, you see a firebender avatar, that wasn't Roku, calls up lava from volcanoes like a waterbender calls up water to form waves. I'd firmly place lavabending within the sphere of firebending.

Also, even though it seems that Aang have never used a mixed of bending, hard to say he hasn't. From a game stand point we'll delineate which form goes where, but to the avatar, mixing ideas or philosophies are perfectly plausible. Look at Iroh; I'd really like to simplify the bending (element) to just Bending, and make it work across the board. That would mean a modification to redirect lightning? And it would make those Cross training feats a lot more, flavorful.

[Mephibosheth]

First, there has been some discussion of epic progressions for bending base classes, but nothing concrete has come of it. I don't have any experience with epic level games, so I can't speak to this issue with any authority.

Second, at this point (and I'm always open to counter-arguments), I'm opposed to implementing a single Bending skill, even for the purpose of facilitating multi-element bending on the part of an Avatar. I say this for a couple of reasons.

First, we've never seen a character on the show using multiple elements in the same form. Even when the Avatar's using the Avatar State, they always bend one element at a time. It's true that they often bend different elements very rapidly, but I can't think of an instance where an Avatar used multiple elements in a single form.

Second, even though Guru Patik establishes the ultimate unity of the nations and the elements, it remains the fact that the different bending disciplines are starkly divided by philosophy and methodology. Take for example the philosophical divide between earthbending (focused on strong roots and direct action) and airbending (focused on mobility, flexibility, and multiple options for attack and defense) fleshed out in Bitter Work. Roku hints at a similar divide between firebending and waterbending in The Avatar and the Fire Lord. I think that separate skills for different bending disciplines accurately reflects these divisions.

Third, I think that Aang is markedly inferior waterbender to Katara and a markedly inferior earthbender to Toph. It's mentioned (or implied) multiple times in the series that, while incredibly powerful and skilled, he isn't quite at the same level as his teachers. Perhaps the most concrete example of this is the techniques that he can't perform (or at least, that we've never seen him perform). He can't metalbend or bloodbend, both of which are represented as the ultimate ability for their respective disciplines. Again, this hints at separate skills for separate bending disciplines, imho.

Finally, I still think we need to wait on the lavabending issue, if we include it at all. I'm convinced that, if it's possible at all for non-Avatars, this is firmly in the firebender ability set. The only time we've ever seen lavabending performed, it has been by firebender Avatars. That said, I would definitely want to see more lavabending performed before writing up a final seed. We just don't know enough about what's possible.

Mephibosheth