[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[Darkbane]

The only epic seed I believe exists so far is EighthSeraph's Dragonfire, in the Non-Canon thread.

The problem I see with the current four-skill method is that the Avatar, when multiclassing, has to buy all of his old bending skills as cross-class skills. Also, since he/she doesn't benefit from the x4 skill points at first level, the Avatar ends up very behind in any discipline other than the first.

Ex: Gnaa is a level 4 earthbender. At fifth level, she decides to multiclass to firebender. With an intelligence of 11, Gnaa gets 4 skill points at level five. She puts all four skill points into Firebending. She now has seven ranks in Earthbending and four in Firebending--already slightly behind other earthbenders of her level, and far behind other firebenders.

This system also runs into big skill-point shortages at higher levels. A fully realized avatar needs to spend 7 skill points per level to keep all his/her Bending skills at max ranks (one class skill, three cross-class skills). So in order to keep at a similar power level to non-Avatar benders, the Avatar needs to have at least a 16 Int.

To represent the difficulty Aang has with other elements, how about something like this: "The first element a bender learns to bend is his or her primary element. If the bender learns to bend any elements besides the primary element (through being the Avatar or by DM fiat), he or she takes a -2 penalty to bending checks concerning other elements. This penalty increases to -4 when the bender attempts to bend the element diametrically opposed to his or her primary element (Water and Fire are opposed, as are Air and Earth).

Not foolproof--we'd need to work out how to deal with skill focus, synergy, and the like to make multi-element PC benders semi-viable--but I think it helps deal with some problems. Comments?

[Ceiling009]

It's a lot easier to stick to one skill for bending, soon as you leave the actual canon universe, and it would be easier to mention that one's primary element should either get a bonus or a non-penalty. I do like what's mentioned in Darkbane's method. It relegates the bending skill into something more simplistic and doable with the icon avatar and possible non-canon games, while still keeping the stiffer "we haven't really seen a dual bender" reasoning.

[ninjatoman]

Hi I'd like to help and I have to say one thing:

I think that make more sense if we consider Lavabending as a form combining firebending and earthbending for two reasons:

First, because lava is rock in liquid state.

Second, I have seen only Avatars using this form, I disagree that even a powerful Firebender or Earthbender could Lavabend.

To Lavabend you probaly need the two: Fire and Earthbending

[Mephibosheth]

The only epic seed I believe exists so far is EighthSeraph's Dragonfire, in the Non-Canon thread.

The problem I see with the current four-skill method is that the Avatar, when multiclassing, has to buy all of his old bending skills as cross-class skills. Also, since he/she doesn't benefit from the x4 skill points at first level, the Avatar ends up very behind in any discipline other than the first.

Ex: Gnaa is a level 4 earthbender. At fifth level, she decides to multiclass to firebender. With an intelligence of 11, Gnaa gets 4 skill points at level five. She puts all four skill points into Firebending. She now has seven ranks in Earthbending and four in Firebending--already slightly behind other earthbenders of her level, and far behind other firebenders.

This system also runs into big skill-point shortages at higher levels. A fully realized avatar needs to spend 7 skill points per level to keep all his/her Bending skills at max ranks (one class skill, three cross-class skills). So in order to keep at a similar power level to non-Avatar benders, the Avatar needs to have at least a 16 Int.

To represent the difficulty Aang has with other elements, how about something like this: "The first element a bender learns to bend is his or her primary element. If the bender learns to bend any elements besides the primary element (through being the Avatar or by DM fiat), he or she takes a -2 penalty to bending checks concerning other elements. This penalty increases to -4 when the bender attempts to bend the element diametrically opposed to his or her primary element (Water and Fire are opposed, as are Air and Earth).

Not foolproof--we'd need to work out how to deal with skill focus, synergy, and the like to make multi-element PC benders semi-viable--but I think it helps deal with some problems. Comments?

The Avatar template already addresses this issue, specifically under the "skills" heading. Characters with this template gain one extra skill point per bending discipline known per level, which can only be used to add ranks in Bending skills. Admittedly, the language of this ability could probably use some clarification, but this problem is already addressed.

[Pirate_King]

also, remember that multiclassing still has gnaa as a level 1 firebender. she's only going to have one firebending seed, probably at a DC 10, and hopefully she's got a high wis and knowledge (bending), so that one seed won't be tough. Why should her ability to earthbend make her a better firebender? they're different styles. a multiclass character is naturally going to be worse at one class' specialty than a non-multiclass, the trade off being she gets both kinds of abilities. The problem you bring up is like complaining that your gish can't cast as much as a full wizard.

[jagadaishio]

On the topic of firebending, we have seen Roku bend for the purpose of increasing or decreasing the amount of heat a given source of lava has. The manipulation of heat falls well into the camp of firebenders. That said, for controlling the lava itself, it would probably be earth bending. Firebenders don't control and true matter, just the energy that is heat.

If one were to control the actual lava itself, it would probably be earthbending, but with the character moving in a way that resembles waterbending. That said, until we have some canon to go off of (i.e. someone moving lava around in a way other than just influencing its flow by breaking or creating barriers in its path) we don't know whether it is possible, nor whether it falls under the domain of fire or earth.

Now, for topics of uncertainty such as this, or the issue of whether sandbenders are earthbenders or not, there is a simple out. We could try emailing the fine people writing and producing the show and see if they could answer any of our questions on the matter. Has anyone ever tried that before?

[Pirate_King]

hm. it could be a spoiler

my theory:

Spoiler

Show

I bet the sandbenders are actually airbenders in hiding. do we ever see them actually earthbend?

[jagadaishio]

hm. it could be a spoiler

my theory:

Spoiler

Show

I bet the sandbenders are actually airbenders in hiding. do we ever see them actually earthbend?

Spoiler

Show

I actually thought of that too. But most places that I've checked say that sandbenders actually propel their skiffs by bumping them with sand particles, not wind. The visual of wind cyclones would just be an illusion created by moving sand.

[Darkbane]

The Avatar template already addresses this issue, specifically under the "skills" heading. Characters with this template gain one extra skill point per bending discipline known per level, which can only be used to add ranks in Bending skills. Admittedly, the language of this ability could probably use some clarification, but this problem is already addressed.

Sorry, didn't catch that part. That definitely helps fix the problem.

[Mephibosheth]

hm. it could be a spoiler

my theory:

Spoiler

Show

I bet the sandbenders are actually airbenders in hiding. do we ever see them actually earthbend?

Spoiler

Show

Yes, we do. They use Steady Stance in The Library.

[Pirate_King]

Spoiler

Show

Yes, we do. They use Steady Stance in The Library.

Spoiler

Show

blast. so much for that theory. still, there could be some hiding out with them, it'd probably be the easiest place

[dman11235]

I have a question on the Water Whip, does this form also let you threaten with it? And what about attacks of opportunity? Or are these the same as a normal whip as well?

EDIT: Also, you should consider eliminating the restriction on Healing Waters. Unlimited healing is not all that powerful. At least for non-cannon. It's a pretty worthless seed outside of this setting.

[Guyr Adamantine]

I have a question on the Water Whip, does this form also let you threaten with it? And what about attacks of opportunity? Or are these the same as a normal whip as well?

EDIT: Also, you should consider eliminating the restriction on Healing Waters. Unlimited healing is not all that powerful. At least for non-cannon. It's a pretty worthless seed outside of this setting.

Q1: The description says it's the same as a regular whip.

Q2: I agree, but in a canon game, I'd probably keep the limit.

Explanations: All classes available in a canon games share a trait; durability. They don't lose any resources over time, except for one variable, hp. Infinite healing is far more damageable in a canon game than elsewere.

We could remove it, but it would be advised to mention how waterbenders and their allies could stay up all day and endure far more encounters, unless impaired by status effects and such. (Even if so, the Healer PrC could get over them.)

Outside canon, out-of-combat healing being that easily achieved and boosted, waterbenders wouldn't be that annoying.

EDIT: jadagaisho brings a good point. Did anyone contacted Nickelodeon to show them how awesome this project (and contributors) is?

[dman11235]

Then you might want to change it in some fashion, as right now Ice Shards is it but better (does a little more damage). Allowing it to threaten is an option, or something else. Actually, I think the threaten thing would be nice because it gives more accessibility to the possible fighting style: AoO battle. And eliminate the whole you provoke thing for it. The reason I see AoO battle: great reach, trip, and disarm. Those are the staples of AoO combat.

I will add this no-limit healing thing to the non-cannon thread. Here's some ways to get infinite healing: Touch of Healing, Dragon Shaman with that one aura (these last two were not truly infinite, because it's only up to 1/2 HP, but it means a LOT less resources spent), Dread Necromancer+Tomb-Tainted Soul, Shadowsun Ninja+TTS (only works if at least one party member does not have TTS), Persist Spell+Mass Lesser Vigor (or any mass vigor spell). I'm sure there's more, but those are the more common ones.

[Guyr Adamantine]

I'm with you on Water Whip. Its a really poor seed right now.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Current Topics of Discussion/Unresolved Topics

# Bending and Two-Weapon Fighting, Flurry of Blows, Rapid Shot, and other ways of increasing number of attacks.

In my own superior wisdom and intellect (and I mean it!), I have pondered upon the quite controversial question of bending blasts and multiple attacks.

A silly interrogation, really.

Much people were thinking that throwing a bunch of d6 at once was game breaking. Wrong, mind slaves! Each and every of these dices is only worth 3.5 damage each. Without any possible enhancements (beyond the rare singular seed), it s*cks, big time, at all levels.

So why forbid the poor benders from having fun? It's no different from rogues getting wonders from TWF.

But about Flurry of Blows, unless the Blasts becomes 1) Monk weapons and 2) Melee weapons, it won't work.

Now heed my words and agree!

[dman11235]

I agree, though with TWF, you will need more than one type of bending attack, or a bending attack and a different weapon. So something like water whip and blast, or blast and auto reloading hand cross bow (do you need both hands free or just one?), or something else. NOT blast/blast.

[Guyr Adamantine]

How so? You can go TWF with your fists, so how come blasts be right out of the game?

[dman11235]

You can't TWF with just your unarmed strike. You only have one of them.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Really?! Could you point it out for me? The man in me wants to believe, but my inner geek is quite pig-headed and needs to have it rubbed in its face.

[dman11235]

The rules never indicate that you have more than one unarmed strike, therefore why assume you do? Also, if you had two, how would you go about deciding which limb gets what bonus at what time if you have something like a Necklace of Natural Attacks or Magic Fang cast on you or something?

[Guyr Adamantine]

Unarmed attacks are treated as both natural and manufactured weapons. With Magic Fang, if you choose it affects ''Unarmed Strike'', then it applies to all of them, no matter if its a feet or your left eyebrow. When you attack with an unarmed strike, you get all your iterative attacks. TWF being only a way to strike with an off-hand weapon, how hard is it to visualise attacking with the said hand, balled into a fist?

I know it might look a bit farfetched, but consider this: Attack rolls being possibilities to hit in combat rather than a number of time you swing your blade, applying TWF to unarmed strikes could simply mean swinging more limbs at your adversary, sacrificing precision in the process.

Now I'm off to bed, so see you tomorrow.

[dman11235]

So, you're getting the benefit of more than one spell with the casting of one spell? Also, with Thri-Kreen, can they now make infinite attacks (MWF) since they can just attack with any part of their body for different effects? Oh and all of those attacks were at +5 transmuting, wounding, collision, whatever else you want since your +1/+9 worth of enhancements NoNA only costs 200,600 gp, and one casting of GMW. That's the problem.

Actually, yes, attack rolls are the possibility of a possible hit. You flail about wildly and from BAB 1-5 only one has a chance to hit. BAB 16+ four have a chance to hit. If fighting with two weapons, each one has a chance to hit. Each one. It's not some arbitrary "I get more attack rolls", it's that you flail the same amount, and both of them have a chance to hit.

[Ceiling009]

Actually, flurry, unarmed strikes, and two weapon fighting stack. The Wizard's Sage and the CustServ make it clear that a monk with all of them (most don't have twf) can do it all within a full round action; but the penalties stack, and flurry must only be done with either monk weapons or unarmed strikes.

A monk can fight with two weapons just like any other character, but she must accept the normal penalties on her
attack rolls to do so. She can use an unarmed strike as an offhand weapon. She can even combine two-weapon fighting with a flurry of blows to gain an extra attack with her off hand (but remember that she can use only unarmed strikes or special monk weapons as part of the flurry). The penalties for two-weapon fighting stack with the penalties for flurry of blows.

[Guyr Adamantine]

So, you're getting the benefit of more than one spell with the casting of one spell?

Yes, since its called unarmed strike, not fist or kick. Since unarmed strike is a natural/manufactured effect, it counts once for boosts, and allow iterative blows.

Also, with Thri-Kreen, can they now make infinite attacks (MWF) since they can just attack with any part of their body for different effects?

Not infinite, but more, since they got more limbs.

Oh and all of those attacks were at +5 transmuting, wounding, collision, whatever else you want since your +1/+9 worth of enhancements NoNA only costs 200,600 gp, and one casting of GMW. That's the problem.

But that's how it works. Also, 200 grands? That'a significant chunk of your wealth at all but nigh-epic levels.

Actually, yes, attack rolls are the possibility of a possible hit. You flail about wildly and from BAB 1-5 only one has a chance to hit. BAB 16+ four have a chance to hit. If fighting with two weapons, each one has a chance to hit. Each one. It's not some arbitrary "I get more attack rolls", it's that you flail the same amount, and both of them have a chance to hit.

Okay, lets put it another way! You strike, spin and kick at your ennemy, adding awkward, swift punches (Extra TWF attack, without feat) to your regular drills.

[dman11235]

@ceiling: Yes, I'm aware that you can. The question is not whether or not you can use them at the same time, it's whether or not you can use unarmed strikes for all of the attacks. Which since you only have one unarmed strike (show me where it says you have more than one) you can't do.

@Guyr: What? I was saying that since you only have one US, you get the benefits once, and one of the problems with the whole two US things is that you either have a punch with +5 from GMW one round and then that same fist doesn't have it on the next attack, or the same spell covers more than one "weapon".

You can make attacks with any part of your body, so why is there a limit? I guess it's not infinite but arbitrarily high.

It's also an effective +10 weapon, which costs the same as a +10 weapon. If it applies to both USs, you just got two +10 weapons for the price of one. How is that fair?

Congratulations! You just described FoB+Snap Kick! Or the normal iteratives if most of those were just the flail attacks.

[Guyr Adamantine]

Ok, after expanding my Internet research, I realised I opened some weird can of worms. (I didn't knew the debate was that heated, so I'll stop here.)

Please excuse me. I'd understand the same to apply to Bending Blasts, but my point stays. It isn't overpowering, even less than unarmed strikes would be.

[Eighth_Seraph]

I am personally amazed at our ability to get off topic. Dman, Guyr. Seriously. If you want to discuss what an unarmed strike actually is, then take it to PMs or start a barely-restrained flame-fest on the gaming forums. I'll be back later tonight to help with a few details as long as Meph is out getting married or something.

EDIT: ninja'd. Thanks, Guyr.

[Ceiling009]

What I think about the definition of unarmed strikes and "hands"

Spoiler

Show

By all points, everyone only has at most two attacks before iterative attacks, and special abilities like rapid shot and flurry. Two. You have a main hand, and an off hand. An unarmed strike is main or off hand, even races with more than 2 arms. It's then one attack per arm, or "extra" hands, so a thri-keen would have 4 attacks (one main, three off) before iterative attacks; and less if those are natural attacks, and not considered manufactured and/or natural weapons, cause then it's only limited to the number of actual natural attacks; like either bite and two claws, or two class, or whatever.

I don't see any reason why a bender wouldn't be able to flurry(maybe not flurry, though a bender would be losing blast dice and seeds for multi-classing), or off hand a blast, just take the penalties then, cause they're already getting an attacks per iterative, unlike the warlock, with their blast. 3.5 damage is only a small pittance at later levels, and in fact, if you're crafty, the current rules don't even deny a bender combining multiple blasts into one... which interestingly enough is even worse with iterative attacks alone.

[jagadaishio]

I'll put in my two coppers on the topic of the unarmed strikes before moving on to the other topics at hand:

Spoiler

Show

The way I see it, a character with unarmed strikes can use TWF with them (i.e. punch/punch) in the same way that a character with gauntlets can use TWF with them (i.e. punch/punch). Beyond it making logical sense for any martial art from boxing to eskrima, the fact that the rules imply that an unarmed strike can be used both off hand (in the TWF special attack description) or primary hand (every where else an unarmed strike is described). If anyone disagrees with me on this, I think that the polite method of doing so would be to spoiler it or PM me for continued discussion.

To the issue at hand. Given that it is cannon for a firebender to attack just as quickly with their fire blasts as with their unarmed strikes, from both hands, or when Toph pulls up two rocks at the same time and chucks them both at two different enemies, it seems like they can use TWF with their bending attacks.

Flurry of Blows would work if there was a feat to make a blast into a monk weapon. That said, it should work with a firebender's blasts regardless. After all, it says in the blast description that the fire damage can be channeled through their unarmed strikes.

Rapid shot makes sense as well. The problem with iterative attacks is how many attacks something can make accurately, with skill, not how many they can churn out per second. I could see a low level earth bender throwing a dozen rocks in a round, but it's unlikely any of them would be even close to accurate. The same is true of an archer or (even closer) someone with a sling. If rapid shot can be used with a sling (it can) it makes sense for it to be able to be used with blasts.

As for other methods of adding more attacks, I suppose it depends on a case by case basis. If you could somehow make them a Speed weapon that would probably work. I always thought that the rules of the blast basically just created a ranged weapon (in the case of the firebender a ranged weapon or extra damage on unarmed strikes), so in any situation where a ranged weapon (or unarmed strikes, again in the case of firebenders) could be given more attacks, blasts should be given the same ability.