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  1. - Top - End - #751
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Pirate_King View Post
    can I bump my bending for people without levels in the class again? Every time I post about it, it gets ignored for some other pressing matter
    I think that it makes more sense that individuals who are apparently unskilled in bending (like early Katara) are more likely just people starting on their first level of their bending class. For example, we watch early on as Katara progresses in learning her first level class features, including her first level seed, Water Whip. She doesn't appear to have any levels in any other class. For that reason, I think that the only place that a person would probably be able to get any seeds is from their respective bending class.

    That said, there has been some discussion about bending skills being cross-class for other classes. The general consensus appears to be that, while you gain no seeds for putting ranks into a bending skill in other classes, you can make slow improvements to your skill in the seeds which you already have. In that way, a Firebender could, for example, switch over to focus more on combat with Fighter, while slowly increasing the skill which they already have in the seeds which they have already earned.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I'd have to agree with the general trend to avoid allowing bending without class levels. That being said, I can definitely see how it opens up possibilities for really cool characters. How about we make a variant in which Bender is a template or a 1st-level feat or somesuch, and then run the classes alongside it, using Pirate King's system for untrained bending?
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    It seems like (and this is from a purely mechanical point of view) such a feat would be abused because any monk character from the fire nation would take the feat at first level to add +1d6 fire damage to their unarmed strikes. Remember, with a DC 5 skill check (which a monk with a 14 Wis and four ranks invested cross-class at first level would always make) they get to use fire blast, which can be channeled through any unarmed strikes, according to the seed description.

    That said, I think it could work to allow someone to take the extra seed feat regardless of whether or not they're a bender. This would allow someone who is going purely cross-class on the skill to get some seeds, but they wouldn't suddenly have manipulate and deflect and blast. With the ability to get the basic seeds automatically by investing ranks, they would be getting a first level dip into bender at the cost of some skill points and a feats instead of having to multiclass. It just seems that learning bending requires more time and focus than that would allow.

    Anyway, another topic I wanted to bring up is the Airbender. Assuming that the one on googlepages is the current one, it needs some minor revisions. First of all, Knowledge (Arcana) as a class skill. I don't think that it really makes sense for that to be a class skill, since there are no arcane spell casters that we know of in the Avatar world that we know of, and the average Airbender probably wouldn't know to much about magic even if there was. That should probably be bumped for the same reason that there's no real use for UMD.

    Second, I think that Engulfing winds is a bit... massive. I'm not suggesting that we remove any of the uses of it, merely that we pare down the verbosity used in its description. Or at least break it up into more paragraphs than just one giant brick per use. It is a monster.

    The breaking up into more paragraphs goes for Tornado too.

    Would warfans provide a +1 bonus to Airbending checks in the same manner as the Airbender's staff? Can it be held without inhibiting bending checks like the Airbender's staff?

    Those are the minor things that come to mind that I think need to be fixed or addressed. Also, if the warfan issue has already been addressed somewhere in past discussions, it may still be a good idea to post that fact on the googlepages page itself.
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  4. - Top - End - #754
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by jagadaishio View Post
    It seems like (and this is from a purely mechanical point of view) such a feat would be abused because any monk character from the fire nation would take the feat at first level to add +1d6 fire damage to their unarmed strikes. Remember, with a DC 5 skill check (which a monk with a 14 Wis and four ranks invested cross-class at first level would always make) they get to use fire blast, which can be channeled through any unarmed strikes, according to the seed description.
    spending an exotic weapon proficiency feat to get a d6 more of damage doesn't seem too broken to me, especially if the feat is wasted when they want to do more damage with fireblast and take a level in the bending class.

    I'm with you on the airbender. it's a wordy class, but it is kind of hard to work with. engulfing winds and tornado seem like the same seed.

    I think there was a description of what knowledge(arcana) did in this setting. didn't it have to do with the spirit world? if it did, it should probably have a different name.
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  5. - Top - End - #755
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I think Meph had a fortunetelling system based on Knowledge(Arcana).

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    That still seems like less of an Airbender use for the skill and more like an Avatar use for the skill.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Wow, a lotís happened since I last checked this thread. I apologize for my prolonged absence. I got married on May 24, and have either been out of town or ridiculously busy since then. However, I think Iím back now, and Iíll do my best to get caught up with this post. Iíll do my best to touch on everything, but I apologize in advance if I miss anything.

    And nowÖto the various issues! *flies away*

    Contacting Nickelodeon: Iíve thought about doing this multiple times and have stepped up my efforts slightly since Jagadaishio mentioned it, but I canít seem to find any sort of email address or mailing address that actually works. Iíve found contact information for Nick Online and Viacom, but nothing for Avatar staff directly. If anyone can find contact information, Iíll be more than happy to contact them on behalf of the project. If I do, what should we say?

    Water Whip: Iíve added a clause allowing Water Whip to threaten squares and be used for AoOís. Additionally, creating a Water Whip is a move action that does not provoke an AoO, and Iíve added a clause stating that using a Water Whip in a threatened square does not provoke. I think that should take care of all issues except using Wisdom for attack rolls.

    Iím still opposed to using Wisdom for attack rolls for Water Whips for many of the same reasons as when we last had this discussion. I donít want to remove any more MAD from the system and the martial nature of the bending disciplines makes it completely reasonable that physical ability scores would be important, even for things like the Single Water Whip (which, were I DM, Iíd call a combination of Water Blast or Water Whip and Pressure). Plus, any argument you could make for allowing Wisdom to govern attack rolls for Water Whip could be just as easily made for other seeds. Iíd rather just draw the line and avoid the slippery slope.

    Note that you canít make a whip with the Ice Shards seed. To quote:

    Quote Originally Posted by Waterbender Write-Up
    By molding a relatively small quantity of water into her hands, a waterbender may craft any ordinarily wooden or metal melee weapon or ammunition she is familiar with (not necessarily proficient with) out of ice as a full-round action.
    Given that whips are not made of wood or metal, you canít make one with Ice Shards.

    TWF Blasts: With the exception of firebenders, all of the bending blasts weíve seen in the show have used both hands (or feet, in the case of many Earth Blasts). In most cases, benders seem to need both hands to perform a bending form. This is the main reason Iím reluctant to allow TWF for bending forms. I could see a firebender exception (perhaps a new class ability in the low to mid levels or a firebender-only feat), but I donít support TWF for other benders. Itís not a ďzomgTWFblastsarebrokenĒ thing, itís a ďadhering to the canon of the show accuratelyĒ thing. And Iím not even going to touch the TWF/FoB/unarmed strikes debate.

    Ice Shards: What if we revamped the Weapon application completely? We could remove the part about making any wooden or metal weapon and simply state the statistics of the weapon created outright. I agree with Eighth_Seraph that weíve never seen the seed used to make an actual weapon. They usually look more like pointy shards of ice. Iíd say the Weapon application would deal 1d6 plus Strength piercing damage with maybe a little bit of cold, have a critical of 20/x2, and have the ability to be thrown with a 10 foot range increment. Increasing the DC could bump up the damage, alter the crucial range/multiplier, or possibly increase the range increment. This seems like a pretty contentious issue, so Iíd like to know what people think about this idea. I remember re-writing this seed before, but I canít for the life of me find the discussion in the thread.

    Sustained Training: Sounds fine with me. Iíll wait a bit to see if it has the broad acceptance I expect, and then Iíll add it to the classes.

    Bending for non-benders: Iím still opposed, mainly because the philosophy behind the bending arts is one of discipline and training, and doesnít seem to lend itself to dabbling. Plus, itís just as easy to dip into a bending class as it is to take a feat or spend cross-class skill ranks, especially for NPCís. I just think this is unnecessary and contrary to the philosophy of bending. Maybe in a non-canon game, but not in a canon one.

    Airbender Revisions: Taking them in order (as proposed by Jagadaishio) Ė

    1. Knowledge (Arcana) Ė If you look under the ďSkillsĒ section of the website, youíll see that weíve revamped some of the knowledge skills slightly to make them more applicable to the setting. Knowledge (Arcana) is among them, and now deals more with mystical traditions, folk magic, and fortunetelling than with arcane spell casting.
    2. Iím with you on Engulfing Winds. I think it could be pared down significantly and become a lot less complex and a lot more useful. Iíll think about how to do so over the next day or so and hopefully post something soon. Iíd also be interested to see other attempts to re-write the seed.
    3. I would rule that warfans can be held while airbending, but that they donít grant a bonus. Weíve only seen airbenders using warfans a few times, so I doubt that they were used frequently by the Air Nomads. I donít think we ever agreed upon stats for warfans, but we definitely should do so. Maybe Iíll bop over to the Items & Machinery thread and see what can be done. There are already-existing stats for warfans (I believe in Sandstorm), but Iíd rather not rely on splat books that not everyone owns. Plus, Avatar warfans seem to be more versatile than the ones in Sandstorm.

    Finally, let me again apologize for getting so behind. It turns out that getting married comes with a lot of other stuff for you to do, and Iíve been quite busy. Iíll try to keep better track of the thread now that Iím home and things have calmed down a bit.

    And welcome back, Eighth_Seraph (at least for now)!

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  8. - Top - End - #758
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    For Ice Shards, I don't think that a throwing distance needs to be included for weapon application. If a person is going to try to use that weapon as a ranged attack, they're probably just going to cannibalize it for water blast materials. Or use it for the ranged application of ice shards. As for it being statted out in the description, I rather like the idea. It creates the scaling aspect which we know and love from other seeds. That said, if I were DMing, I would probably allow players to make a combined manipulate/freeze and craft check to make items out of ice. I would absolutely require a craft check for any sort of a weapon that doesn't hold a -4 improvised penalty, the specific weapon function of ice shards aside.

    I still think that Knowledge (Arcana) is less of an Airbender skill and more of an Avatar skill. From what we've seen of the other Airbenders in flashbacks, and what we know of Avatar Aang's knowledge of the spirit world prior to some talks with Avatar Roku, it seems like no Airbenders aside from ancient, wise ones and Avatars know any more about the spirit world than any other benders. Knowledge (Arcana) should either cease to be an Airbender skill, or become a skill for all four of the bending classes. That's the feeling I get, anyway.
    Last edited by jagadaishio; 2008-06-06 at 01:43 PM.
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  9. - Top - End - #759
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I'm with Jag, Knowledge arcana should be for all benders. Iroh has a certain knowledge of the spirit world, and our application of it in this world fits with the deeper philosophies of all the bending disciplines and their interconnectedness.
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  10. - Top - End - #760
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Maybe we can give each bender a type of knowledge
    i.e. Air (Arcana), Fire (Military)

    and taking bending study makes that skill not cross-class for you.

    (Warning! Undeveloped idea I came up with in ten seconds)


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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Shades of gray View Post
    Maybe we can give each bender a type of knowledge
    i.e. Air (Arcana), Fire (Military)

    and taking bending study makes that skill not cross-class for you.

    (Warning! Undeveloped idea I came up with in ten seconds)
    My whole point, though, was that Airbenders don't seem to really know more about the spirit world than any other benders. Not that each class needs their own specialized knowledge skill.
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  12. - Top - End - #762
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    So, do we want to give all benders access to Knowledge (Arcana), or do we want to give none of them access to it? I can see either way, so Iíll leave it up to the community. I donít think that we need separate Knowledge skills for each bending art. Thatís what Knowledge (Bending) is for.

    Next, a clarification and re-write of the Engulfing Winds airbending seed was requested, and I definitely agree with the sentiment. Engulfing Winds is relatively confusing, and I think would actually be best broken down into separate, simpler, and combinable seeds.

    With this in mind, itís important to realize that Engulfing Winds was created to represent this move, wherein Aang creates a twisting line of sustained air gusts that checks Jetís forward movement and pushes him back. I think that this move could be represented as a combination of seeds, specifically one template seed that can be applied to make Air Blast continuous instead of instantaneous and another seed that allows direction changes in an Air Blast. My proposed seeds can be found below.

    Spoiler
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    Sustained Gusts (Template)
    Base DC: +10

    This template can be applied to an airbenderís Air Blast, transforming the normally-instantaneous burst of air into a sustained gust. This sustained gust takes the form of a line with a length equal to the airbenderís bending range. It no longer requires a ranged touch attack to hit the target, but the target is allowed a Reflex save to negate the effect of the Air Blast. Targets that fail their Reflex save are affected as normal by the airbenderís Air Blast, take a -4 penalty to opposed ability checks to resist bull rush, trip, and overrun attempts, and are considered checked. Targets that fail their Reflex save but successfully resist the effects of the Air Blast can make a DC 15 Strength check to move out of the area of the gust.

    Using an Air Blast in conjunction with this template requires a full-round action to initiate and maintain. An airbender can maintain a Sustained Gust for a number of rounds equal to his class level. An airbender can increase the maximum duration of a Sustained Gust by increasing the DC of the seed by +5 for every extra round.

    Multidirectional Blast (Template) (or some catchier name)
    Base DC: +20
    This template can be applied to any targeted airbending seed or any area of effect seed that takes the shape of a line.
    ē Point of Origin: Using this application, an airbender can cause the selected airbending form to originate at any point within his bending range and proceed in any straight line he chooses, including vertical lines.
    ē Twists and Turns: Using this application, an airbender can cause the path of an airbending form to turn and twist. The path of the form may include a number of turns equal to half the airbenderís class level, with each turn having a maximum of 45 degrees. An airbender can increase the number of possible turns by increasing the DC of the form by +5 for every additional turn.

    To summarize, Iím suggesting removing Engulfing Winds entirely and replacing it with these two seeds. Sustained Gust is relatively benign, though it can be useful for tying down a particularly dangerous opponent for a long period of time. Multidirectional Blast is potentially much more useful, allowing for maneuvers like this as well as flinging opponents straight skyward or hurling flying opponents straight down.

    Next, hereís my proposed clarification of the Tornado seed. Itís mostly just a re-write for clarity, but I added a section to explain how the tornado affects objects, to allow for maneuvers like this from The King of Omashu and allow the airbender to choose the direction creatures and objects are flung.

    Spoiler
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    Tornado
    Base DC: 30

    ē Disperse: By manipulating air currents into a tight spiral, the Airbender can severely impede the movement of his/her foes. This form creates a tornado anywhere within 30 feet of the Airbender, which can be moved 40 feet per round as a move action, has a 5 foot radius, and may be up to 40 feet tall. Upon contact with a creature, the tornado stops moving, even if it has movement remaining that turn.

    Creatures inside the tornado need to make a Reflex Save or be stunned for one round and flung 5 ft per level in a horizontal direction of the airbenderís choosing. Even if the creature passes the Reflex Save, he/she still moves at half speed until out of the tornado. Creatures that are larger than the tornado gain a +4 circumstance bonus to their reflex save. Objects inside the tornado are flung 5 ft per class level of the airbender in a direction of the airbenderís choosing.

    The tornado lasts as long as the Airbender concentrates to maintain it (a standard action), up to a maximum number of turns equal to the Airbenderís class level. For every 10 the Airbending check exceeds the DC the height and width (at both top and bottom) of the tornado increases by 5ft.

    ē Capture: By manipulating air currents into a tight spiral, the Airbender can create a massive vortex of wind that forms as a tornado. This seed takes a full-round action to create a tornado around the airbender with a base 5ft wide and 15ft wide at the top and 30ft high. An airbender must remain within the radius of this tornado, and can move with the tornado at a rate equal to the airbenderís base land speed.

    Whenever a creature of up to huge size or smaller occupies the same space as the tornado, that creature must succeed in a Reflex save. If the creature fails the Reflex save they are carried into the air along with the tornado, otherwise they take 2d6 damage. The creature is carried 5ft up on the first round and another 5ft every other round until it reaches the top. Each round the creature may make a Reflex save to exit the tornado at any square adjacent to the creatureís current location in the tornado. If the creature remains in tornado that creature takes 2d6 damage per round. Creatures in the tornado are considered prone and have total concealment. Additionally, the tornado protects all the occupants from projectile attacks as a Wind Wall spell.

    The airbender may locate himself any where inside the 5ft wide section of the tornado and may change position as a swift action. The tornado takes a certain amount of concentration that takes a full-round action on the part of the airbender. If the airbender is hit by an attack, she must make an Airbending check to keep the tornado, otherwise the tornado disappears and the airbender is falls prone on the ground. For every 10 the Airbending check exceeds the DC the height and width (at both top and bottom) of the tornado increases by 5ft.

    What do you think?

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  13. - Top - End - #763
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I really like the new templates, definitely increases the ability of the airbender to function like aang.

    I vote make knowledge arcana a class skill for benders or make the spirit world stuff that it covers part of knowledge bending.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Well, I'm back now. I think I've let things simmer down long enough.

    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth View Post
    Water Whip: Iíve added a clause allowing Water Whip to threaten squares and be used for AoOís. Additionally, creating a Water Whip is a move action that does not provoke an AoO, and Iíve added a clause stating that using a Water Whip in a threatened square does not provoke. I think that should take care of all issues except using Wisdom for attack rolls.

    Iím still opposed to using Wisdom for attack rolls for Water Whips for many of the same reasons as when we last had this discussion. I donít want to remove any more MAD from the system and the martial nature of the bending disciplines makes it completely reasonable that physical ability scores would be important, even for things like the Single Water Whip (which, were I DM, Iíd call a combination of Water Blast or Water Whip and Pressure). Plus, any argument you could make for allowing Wisdom to govern attack rolls for Water Whip could be just as easily made for other seeds. Iíd rather just draw the line and avoid the slippery slope.
    You'll note that I changed my mind after reviewing my statements and the abilities. Dex makes sense. The threaten thing, well, that makes the seed useful now. Now that you point out that passage in the Ice Shards, well, I feel stupid, but it's still terrible without that added boost (the whip is a terrible weapon, what can I say?).

    TWF Blasts: With the exception of firebenders, all of the bending blasts weíve seen in the show have used both hands (or feet, in the case of many Earth Blasts). In most cases, benders seem to need both hands to perform a bending form. This is the main reason Iím reluctant to allow TWF for bending forms. I could see a firebender exception (perhaps a new class ability in the low to mid levels or a firebender-only feat), but I donít support TWF for other benders. Itís not a ďzomgTWFblastsarebrokenĒ thing, itís a ďadhering to the canon of the show accuratelyĒ thing. And Iím not even going to touch the TWF/FoB/unarmed strikes debate.
    Makes a little bit of sense, but note that TWF does NOT require the use of two hands. However, I see benders as needing their entire BODY, so there is no way that they'd be able to TWF (same thing goes for unarmed strikes btw). Rapid shot, sure. Faster bending, sure. Class features I support.

    Ice Shards: What if we revamped the Weapon application completely? We could remove the part about making any wooden or metal weapon and simply state the statistics of the weapon created outright. I agree with Eighth_Seraph that weíve never seen the seed used to make an actual weapon. They usually look more like pointy shards of ice. Iíd say the Weapon application would deal 1d6 plus Strength piercing damage with maybe a little bit of cold, have a critical of 20/x2, and have the ability to be thrown with a 10 foot range increment. Increasing the DC could bump up the damage, alter the crucial range/multiplier, or possibly increase the range increment. This seems like a pretty contentious issue, so Iíd like to know what people think about this idea. I remember re-writing this seed before, but I canít for the life of me find the discussion in the thread.
    Yes. This was one thing that I really liked about 4E, the weapons not being individual weapons, but they fit into categories. However this is 3.5, so that's not really applicable, but we can use the idea and create something a little better. And I say if they want to make a weapon, an actual weapon, Manipulate will let them.

    Bending for non-benders: Iím still opposed, mainly because the philosophy behind the bending arts is one of discipline and training, and doesnít seem to lend itself to dabbling. Plus, itís just as easy to dip into a bending class as it is to take a feat or spend cross-class skill ranks, especially for NPCís. I just think this is unnecessary and contrary to the philosophy of bending. Maybe in a non-canon game, but not in a canon one.
    I agree, since it's a matter of training from the classes. It makes sense both canon and non-canon. However, others can study bending and derive some martial arts from it. This wouldn't allow bending, but it will allow forms inspired by the bending. Like the bending study feats. Only for non-benders. A good comparison to this is in OA with the different style feats, for reference. I think there are more in Dragon somewhere. Check Realms Help, they are the X Mastery I or II feats, the find function will help (assuming you have Firefox, not sure if IE has it).

    As for skills, well, I think know (bending) would be a very viable new skill. I mean, skills are added all the time when necessary, and let's look at the knowledge skills:
    arcana: things of arcane nature, magic, etc.
    religion: deities, planar stuff (alignment based), etc. Orders fit under this the best (see the monk) btw
    nature: wilderness, nature, animal, plants
    geography: lands, regions, landforms
    architecture and engineering: structures, etc
    psionics: powers of the mind, things that utilize psionics
    dungeoneering: underground, aberrations
    planes: the planes themselves (the spirit world is the ethereal plane, btw)
    nobility and royalty: nobles and royals, what'd you expect? (the most worthless one, btw)

    Oh, and I forgot local. It doesn't exist in my mind. It's way too specific. And general at the same time. Knowledge skills in general are lame.

    Back on topic now, I don't see many there that could fit bending. Religion is your best bet. So you could very easily stick it in there, like they did with monks and spiritualness in core. Now, if you create a new skill, knowledge (bending), you could maybe have it a little more general than that, and have it apply to all forms of martial art, the biggest of which would be bending (much like the biggest of all that arcana covers is arcane casters, butr it still covers magical beasts and supernatural abilities). This one skill could provide the bending you need, i.e., the checks are keyed off of this. In canon, you'd be restricted to only one class, and the avatar template (though I'm not so sure it should be a template, I feel that Aang is no more powerful than anyone else, he's just got the ability to multi-class, and should probably be a PrC instead. Though unique monsters are hard to determine what they are, especially when they're the same race as everything else). or you could leave it as-is and have the bending skill be specific to each class (waterbending, etc.). This option seems...different. On the one hand, I like it because multi-classing the bending classes is now better (you need that one class to advance the skill to its fullest) and on the other it adds more things to the game, and thus complicates things. Now I know that canon doesn't have multi-class benders aside from the avatar, but that's something to consider too here (the avatar). And as an added bonus it makes non-canon adaptation easier. The main advantages of the single knowledge skill are that it makes multi-classing easier, and doesn't introduce as many skills. The downsides are that knowledge skills are int based and that multi-classing is now a no-brainer, as you lose nothing bending power wise by doing it. Advantages of a new system that makes it a level check instead are no skill bonus manipulation (hello +30 ring!), easier calculations, and more balanced characters, especially multi-classed (you can even build it like the ToB system, where your bending level is your class level +1/2 your other levels, to represent continued training). Downsides are no skill manipulation (goodbye, +30 ring), a need for a new class feature (yeah, tough, I know), and...that's all I got. The best part: you can introduce feats and items to replicate what you miss from it being a skill, and build it to suit your needs. This is, I believe the best option by far.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    So has anyone thought about 4e conversions? I'd like to start that.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    4e conversion seems like it would be a lot of work. Would you come up with 4 different classes for Bending, or just make one huge one?

    Also, I was wondering if you would consider making feats like the Bending Study for non-benders? I was thinking since bending is heavily based on martial arts, martial styles might use a lot of influence from bending in the Avatar universe.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Sorry for raising something unrelated to the current discussion but for many of the waterbender seeds, for example tentacle and shield, it doesn't seem required for the waterbender to spend actions to maintain control of the water used for the seed. An example I could think of would be the use of tentacles to attack; as I understand it, once formed, the tentacles are completely independant of the waterbender in terms of actions and stuff, am I right?
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Actually, about the 4 different classes... no, you wouldn't. You'd only make one class; it's at wills, encounters, and dailies will have secondary effects tied to elements and philosophy style.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Agreed. Though it would require an entirely new project, so I say we wait on it for a while still. Until more stuff comes out, or possibly an errata to the current bit (it needs it badly, surprisingly enough. I guess that's what you get for rushing a release and not listening to your play testers), there is little to work with, and it will be harder to make balanced classes.

    @Uthug: tentacle does state that you must use a full round action to maintain it.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235 View Post
    I agree, since it's a matter of training from the classes. It makes sense both canon and non-canon. However, others can study bending and derive some martial arts from it. This wouldn't allow bending, but it will allow forms inspired by the bending. Like the bending study feats. Only for non-benders. A good comparison to this is in OA with the different style feats, for reference. I think there are more in Dragon somewhere. Check Realms Help, they are the X Mastery I or II feats, the find function will help (assuming you have Firefox, not sure if IE has it).
    The idea of expanding the "X bending study" feats to non-benders has been proposed, but nothing solid ever came of it. What sort of abilities would you suggest.

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235 View Post
    As for skills, well, I think know (bending) would be a very viable new skill. I mean, skills are added all the time when necessary, and let's look at the knowledge skills:
    arcana: things of arcane nature, magic, etc.
    religion: deities, planar stuff (alignment based), etc. Orders fit under this the best (see the monk) btw
    nature: wilderness, nature, animal, plants
    geography: lands, regions, landforms
    architecture and engineering: structures, etc
    psionics: powers of the mind, things that utilize psionics
    dungeoneering: underground, aberrations
    planes: the planes themselves (the spirit world is the ethereal plane, btw)
    nobility and royalty: nobles and royals, what'd you expect? (the most worthless one, btw)

    Oh, and I forgot local. It doesn't exist in my mind. It's way too specific. And general at the same time. Knowledge skills in general are lame.

    Back on topic now, I don't see many there that could fit bending. Religion is your best bet. So you could very easily stick it in there, like they did with monks and spiritualness in core. Now, if you create a new skill, knowledge (bending), you could maybe have it a little more general than that, and have it apply to all forms of martial art, the biggest of which would be bending (much like the biggest of all that arcana covers is arcane casters, butr it still covers magical beasts and supernatural abilities). This one skill could provide the bending you need, i.e., the checks are keyed off of this. In canon, you'd be restricted to only one class, and the avatar template (though I'm not so sure it should be a template, I feel that Aang is no more powerful than anyone else, he's just got the ability to multi-class, and should probably be a PrC instead. Though unique monsters are hard to determine what they are, especially when they're the same race as everything else). or you could leave it as-is and have the bending skill be specific to each class (waterbending, etc.). This option seems...different. On the one hand, I like it because multi-classing the bending classes is now better (you need that one class to advance the skill to its fullest) and on the other it adds more things to the game, and thus complicates things. Now I know that canon doesn't have multi-class benders aside from the avatar, but that's something to consider too here (the avatar). And as an added bonus it makes non-canon adaptation easier. The main advantages of the single knowledge skill are that it makes multi-classing easier, and doesn't introduce as many skills. The downsides are that knowledge skills are int based and that multi-classing is now a no-brainer, as you lose nothing bending power wise by doing it. Advantages of a new system that makes it a level check instead are no skill bonus manipulation (hello +30 ring!), easier calculations, and more balanced characters, especially multi-classed (you can even build it like the ToB system, where your bending level is your class level +1/2 your other levels, to represent continued training). Downsides are no skill manipulation (goodbye, +30 ring), a need for a new class feature (yeah, tough, I know), and...that's all I got. The best part: you can introduce feats and items to replicate what you miss from it being a skill, and build it to suit your needs. This is, I believe the best option by far.
    Note that the website has a page that includes a re-write of the Knowledge skills and includes Knowledge (Bending). It's a class skill for all bending classes.

    I don't think I'm in favor of basing bending abilities off Knowledge (Bending). the Knowledge skill represents an understanding of the philosophies behind bending, whereas the Bending skill represents proficiency with the actual application of those philosophies and with the physical maneuvers necessary to bend. Even in a non-canon game, you have to work within the general framework of the world, which includes substantial philosophical differences between the four bending arts. To me, this means separate bending skills.

    I hope that addresses your issues, I will admit I got kinda lost in that last huge paragraph.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ceiling009
    So has anyone thought about 4e conversions? I'd like to start that.
    It's been mentioned a couple of times, but it was decided to wait until more people are more familiar with the 4e rules. I don't even have access to the books yet, and I'm sure I'm not the only one.

    Quote Originally Posted by Uthug
    Sorry for raising something unrelated to the current discussion but for many of the waterbender seeds, for example tentacle and shield, it doesn't seem required for the waterbender to spend actions to maintain control of the water used for the seed. An example I could think of would be the use of tentacles to attack; as I understand it, once formed, the tentacles are completely independant of the waterbender in terms of actions and stuff, am I right?
    Like Dman said, tentacle requires a full-round action on the part of the Waterbender to control and maintain.

    Any other comments on my new and revised seeds? I'd like to hear positive reviews or criticisms from a few more people before I add them.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    I have fallen in love with Multidirectional Blast. The name stinks, though. We need to change that. The new Tornado write up is great, too, though I think it would be best if we removed the clause stating that it stops upon coming in contact with a creature, for two reasons. First, I can't think of any justification for that other than balance reasons. Second, how cool would it be too send a Huge-sized Tornado into a bunch of mooks in a tight phalanx? But then the balance issue comes up. I would also suggest rules for increasing the radius of the tornado. It should be exceedingly difficult, but oh so satisfying to overbend. Something simple, like:

    Enhancement: Using either of its functions, an airbender may increase the radius of the tornado's base by 5 feet by adding +10 to the Airbending check.

    On the topic of 4e; where's the SRD for it? I did the grand majority of the work for the 3e version using nothing but d20SRD.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph View Post
    I have fallen in love with Multidirectional Blast. The name stinks, though. We need to change that.
    I agree whole-heartedly, but I couldn't think of anything better. Any suggestions? Maybe "Sideswiping Blast" or "Flexible Blast?" None of these are really any better, though...

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph View Post
    The new Tornado write up is great, too, though I think it would be best if we removed the clause stating that it stops upon coming in contact with a creature, for two reasons. First, I can't think of any justification for that other than balance reasons. Second, how cool would it be too send a Huge-sized Tornado into a bunch of mooks in a tight phalanx? But then the balance issue comes up. I would also suggest rules for increasing the radius of the tornado. It should be exceedingly difficult, but oh so satisfying to overbend. Something simple, like:

    Enhancement: Using either of its functions, an airbender may increase the radius of the tornado's base by 5 feet by adding +10 to the Airbending check.
    I edited the description (for both applications) to include similar language. It was already there for the "capture" application, but I changed the DC and added it for the "disperse" application as well.

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph View Post
    On the topic of 4e; where's the SRD for it? I did the grand majority of the work for the 3e version using nothing but d20SRD.
    From what I've been able to tell, there won't be an SRD like there was for 3.5 The 4e SRD will supposedly be more like an index of content to aid other publishers in creating 4e-compatible sourcebooks. I don't have any idea how comprehensive it will be. IMHO it's a bad business decision on the part of WotC to jettison with the 3.5-style SRD, but that's a different issue entirely.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    One thing about the new and improved Tornado that quite don't fly: it says it creates a tornado within 30 ft. from the airbender. It should be inside your bending range!
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Throw a Rock? Really? Can we get a better name for this?
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    If your talking about the Move a Rock ability, that's actually a reference from "Bitter Work".
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyr Adamantine View Post
    One thing about the new and improved Tornado that quite don't fly: it says it creates a tornado within 30 ft. from the airbender. It should be inside your bending range!
    I'm actually of the opposite opinion. The only time I can remember actually seeing an airbender make a tornado, to was either around or adjacent to him. Here I reference The King of Omashu when Aang made a giant tornado to redirect a boulder tossed by King Bumi. If I were to change it to accurately reflect the show, I'd say the tornado has to start adjacent to the airbender or sharing his square. What says the community?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord Omberous
    Throw a Rock? Really? Can we get a better name for this?
    I agree. It is something of a lame name if taken in isolation. However, to reinforce Thistle's completely correct explanation, I quote the episode transcript for Bitter Work (Season 2, Episode 9)

    Quote Originally Posted by Bitter Work Transcript
    Aang: So what move are you going to teach me first "Rockalanche" (He shoves his fist down to illustrate the move.) "the trembler" (He pretends like heís has someone in a hold and trembles slightly.) Oh! Maybe I can learn to make a whirlpool out of land!

    (He holds his arms up and spins around. Toph slaps a hand on his chest to stop him.)

    Toph: Letís start with ďmove a rockĒ.

    (She walks offscreen.)

    Aang: Sounds good! Sounds good!
    Finally, here's my proposal for a re-written Ice Shards Weapon application.

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    A waterbender can create a rough melee weapon by molding a relatively small quantity of water into a large, sharp shard as a full-round action. This weapon deals 1d6 points of piercing damage plus 1d4 points of cold damage and has a critical rating of 20/x2. It counts as a light weapon, can be used in conjunction with any weapon-based feat for which it qualifies, and can be thrown with a range increment of 10 ft. By increasing the base DC by +5, the waterbender can increase the base damage dice of the weapon by one step (max 1d10), increase the critical range by 1 (max 15-20), or increase the critical multiplier by 1 (max x3). If the weapon ever leaves the waterbenderís possession, it begins to melt as normal ice would.

    What says the community?

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    *grmbles at the lack of a multi-quote application*
    Quote Originally Posted by Mephibosheth View Post
    Finally, here's my proposal for a re-written Ice Shards Weapon application.

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    A waterbender can create a rough melee weapon by molding a relatively small quantity of water into a large, sharp shard as a full-round action. This weapon deals 1d6 points of piercing damage plus 1d4 points of cold damage and has a critical rating of 20/x2. It counts as a light weapon, can be used in conjunction with any weapon-based feat for which it qualifies, and can be thrown with a range increment of 10 ft. By increasing the base DC by +5, the waterbender can increase the base damage dice of the weapon by one step (max 1d10), increase the critical range by 1 (max 15-20), or increase the critical multiplier by 1 (max x3). If the weapon ever leaves the waterbenderís possession, it begins to melt as normal ice would.

    What says the community?
    Hmm, I think you shouldn't cap the damage. Also note that 1d10 is never actually reached by increasing dice size like that. It goes from 1d6-2d6-3d6-4d6-6d6-8d6-12d6 and so on. Looking at it, assuming no competence ring (either by canon (no magic items) or by a different skill method) you can get up to about 12d6, forgoing any other benefit. Hmm, that actually is quite high for this. Maybe if you increased the amount necessary to up the damage? A +10 to up it bring the max level 20 damage to 4d6, which is too low (not really worth it, I'll use those extra bonuses to do something more impressive, like attaching a wave to it or something equally impressive). Eh, I'm just thinking out loud. Take it how you like.

    Note that the website has a page that includes a re-write of the Knowledge skills and includes Knowledge (Bending). It's a class skill for all bending classes.

    I don't think I'm in favor of basing bending abilities off Knowledge (Bending). the Knowledge skill represents an understanding of the philosophies behind bending, whereas the Bending skill represents proficiency with the actual application of those philosophies and with the physical maneuvers necessary to bend. Even in a non-canon game, you have to work within the general framework of the world, which includes substantial philosophical differences between the four bending arts. To me, this means separate bending skills.

    I hope that addresses your issues, I will admit I got kinda lost in that last huge paragraph.
    I was throwing out possible options for the skill piece. Since it is not good form to make a class rely on a specific skill, thus forcing it to spend skill points on it, and increasing the need for intelligence and eliminating possible options, the bending level fix is very good looking. This, however, does suffer some problems of its own, which I outlined. That was mainly as a tossing out of three ideas of directions that system can go in. Yes two of them are changes, but neither are very big changes, the biggest of which eliminates the requirement of a feat (thus reducing feat starvation, though giving it as a bonus feat could solve that dilemma) and just requires a small change to the class description and bending overview. The knowledge thing, well, I reasoned my way to determining that the best way to do that was the way you have it, though a little more general (encompass ALL martial arts and not just bending, because bending is a form of martial arts).

    For the record, I too am against know (bend) as the driving force. It's too shaky IMO. Also it greatly helps multi-class benders (like the Avatar in canon, and outside canon multi-class benders). Now, the separate bending skill thing is also bad IMO, since it forces the expenditure of your precious skill points, which are greatly needed elsewhere, and you run into one of the main problems with the monk. The BL option I outlined (Bending Level is your bender class level +1/2 other levels) fixes both of these problems. That's one of its biggest advantages.

    I'm actually of the opposite opinion. The only time I can remember actually seeing an airbender make a tornado, to was either around or adjacent to him. Here I reference The King of Omashu when Aang made a giant tornado to redirect a boulder tossed by King Bumi. If I were to change it to accurately reflect the show, I'd say the tornado has to start adjacent to the airbender or sharing his square. What says the community?
    I say let them move the tornado, but it must start in the bender's square. I think that because Aang wasn't always in the center, it is indicative of it not being restricted to that circumstance. And no, it's not overpowered, it just requires one hefty skill check to do.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    A new name for Multidirectionnal Blast: Snake Blast.

    It twists and twirl around the obstacles, so it fits, right?
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by Guyr Adamantine View Post
    A new name for Multidirectionnal Blast: Snake Blast.

    It twists and twirl around the obstacles, so it fits, right?
    Cool Idea, how about Snaking Blast or Serpentine Blast (Building off the snake idea.) Those seem a little less 'Snake' and more like winding and twirling.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

    Quote Originally Posted by dman11235 View Post
    Hmm, I think you shouldn't cap the damage. Also note that 1d10 is never actually reached by increasing dice size like that. It goes from 1d6-2d6-3d6-4d6-6d6-8d6-12d6 and so on. Looking at it, assuming no competence ring (either by canon (no magic items) or by a different skill method) you can get up to about 12d6, forgoing any other benefit. Hmm, that actually is quite high for this. [...] Eh, I'm just thinking out loud. Take it how you like.
    Actually, damage dice go 1-1d2-1d3-1d4-1d6-1d8-1d10-1d12. The idea isn't to make the shards a replacement for a good Masterwork weapon, but rather to make them not suck quite as much if you're forced into a corner and need a melee weapon. I like the new write-up, it's what it should have been months ago.

    Also, Meph, remember the Sustained Training thing. There's probably a better name for it, but it would eliminate the benders' dependency on skill points for the most basic of their abilities.

    On the topic of untrained bending, I, as you all know by now, don't think it works for the canon game, but I think we should make rules for it anyway. Useful quasi-canon rules can be added to the website as our own little Unearthed Arcana, in case people are interested in doing things differently. For example, I greatly support the Avatar as a template, like we have it now (suits the Canon of the show better than anything I could've thought up); but there have been many people that suggest it as a PrC. What do you all think?

    It twists and twirl around the obstacles, so it fits, right?
    Cool Idea, how about Snaking Blast or Serpentine Blast (Building off the snake idea.) Those seem a little less 'Snake' and more like winding and twirling.
    How about simply "Serpentine"? It is a template after all. Templates are to forms as adjectives are to sentences.
    Last edited by Eighth_Seraph; 2008-06-11 at 10:41 PM.
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