[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[Mephibosheth]

How about this for a re-write of the Ice Shards seed, hopefully incorporating the above comments as much as possible:

A waterbender can create a rough melee weapon by molding a relatively small quantity of water into a large, sharp shard as a full-round action. This weapon deals 1d6 points of piercing damage and has a critical rating of 20/x2. It counts as a light weapon, can be used in conjunction with any weapon-based feat for which it qualifies, and can be thrown with a range increment of 10 ft. Addtionally , the waterbender add 1d4 points of cold damage for every 10 by which her skill check exceeds the base DC. A weapon created using this seed lasts as long as the waterbender holds it, but begins to melt as normal ice would if the weapon ever leaves the waterbender’s possession.

Next, how does this sound for a cloud shaping clause for Wind Shaping:

• Cloud Shaping: Another basic technique, this ability allows an airbender to manipulate clouds, water vapor, and other similar substances. An airbender can cause the clouds to take any shape he desires, though the shape must be relatively simple and intricate detail is usually impossible. An airbender can also move clouds and vapors anywhere within his bending range. Clouds moved or shaped by an airbender remain as they are until dispersed. An airbender can affect one 5-foot cube for every 5 airbender levels with this ability.

On the dead levels issue:

I looked back at the classes, and there is a significant problem with dead levels. Airbenders have 8 by my count (5, 7, 9, 11, 13, 15, 17, 19), earthbenders have 3 (11, 13, 17), firebenders have 6 (7,9,11,13,17,19), and waterbenders have 4 (7,9,11,17). Some of these can be eliminated by rearranging the order of some abilities. For example, airbenders could reasonably get evasion at 5th level and improved evasion at 11th. Waterbenders, meanwhile, could get Circular Attack at 9th level instead of 10th. We could bump the firebender's Firestorm ability back to 7th level and grant a reduction in the attack penalties at 13th level.

This, however doesn't completely eliminate the problem. What if we grant a few bonus feats at higher levels? We could craft a specific list that isn't too powerful, but allows the various benders to customize a little and pick up bonuses to important skills or general useful feats. I agree with Dman that just giving them a free skill point seems a bit cheesy somehow, and I don't want to eliminate the skill system, if only for the "if it ain't broke" reason put forward by jagadaishio.

To be perfectly honest, I'm not completely unhappy with a few dead levels. I think the classes offer enough awesomeness to make them worth sitting through a few dead levels. However, with the possible exception of the earthbender, I agree there are a few too many.

Mephibosheth

[jagadaishio]

The argument could be made that there are no true dead levels in bending classes because of the additional skill point that you get to devote to bending each level. I am not going to make that argument, however. I agree with the changing of levels of gained abilities that Mephibosheth suggests, but I don't agree with the bonus feats. It just doesn't strike me as a good idea.

I like the weapon clause as Mephibosheth has most recently suggested, but I'm still not sure whether or not it should require a swift action to maintain. This would work in the same way as the Firebender's Burning Rush, except it wouldn't degrade, so long as it's maintained.

For the cloud shaping, I think that we should just copy-pasta from the other classes various Manipulate-style seeds for the purpose of shaping and movement. It just seems easier that way. It would allow for cloud-shaping, and it would let the Airbender move around their tornados and other long-lasting effects.

Anyway, that's the way I see it all.

[Pirate_King]

I've no problem with a few dead levels(the rogue has 2), but 6 and 8 are a lot, and I think the solution is pretty much either a limited set of bonus feats or new special abilities to think up, which would basically be the same thing. Oh, and firestorm at 7th level, that's the first level where firebenders get a second blast from BAB, and going from one blast per round to three seems odd to me. To get rid of a couple firebender dead levels, we could progressively decrease the penalty for deflect bending, and find some other use for airbending study.

I have a logical issue with the manipulate abilities and the earth and air seeds particles and dust. Both seem to be rather simple applications of the manipulate abilities that they don't seem to warrant their own seeds. I think letting them have those seeds without taking up seeds known would be an alright bonus to balance with the water and fires child of the sun/moon bonuses

[dman11235]

Good class design dictates no dead levels. Currently the waterbender has 4, at levels 7, 9, 11, and 17. Coincidentally, the levels you want to be dead least are levels 7, 13, and 17, as all they give you are skill points and HP, and whatever class features you'd get. So that's two levels you never want to be dead. Also, the levels that are best as dead levels (if absolutely necessary, but try as hard as possible to eliminate all dead levels) are 6, 12, and 18, as they all get +1 to all saves and +1 BAB. You want to be able to gain something new every level, or else taking that next level isn't going to be very appealing. Eh, this is all in On the Philosophy of Class Design, linked in my Handy Haversack, read it more in depth there.

Air is the same, but with the added problems of levels 5 and 19. Earth is 9, 11, 13, and 17, and fire is 7, 9, 11, 13, 17, 19.

Now, a lot of this can be fixed with some moving around of stuff. Like, moving a class feature to a level earlier. You currently have most class features at the same levels as gaining a new seed, so you have enough things to eliminate all the dead levels, even in the case of the airbender.

[Mephibosheth]

What would people think of altering the seeds known progression, increasing the total number of bending seeds a bender knows by one. Something like this:

{table=head]Level|Seeds Known
1|1
2|2
3|3
4|3
5|4
6|4
7|5
8|5
9|6
10|6
11|7
12|7
13|8
14|8
15|9
16|9
17|10
18|10
19|11
20|12[/table]

If I'm looking at things correctly, that could possibly address a lot of the dead level issues, since it would put new seeds known on odd levels (where most of our dead levels occur.

For the cloud shaping, I think that we should just copy-pasta from the other classes various Manipulate-style seeds for the purpose of shaping and movement. It just seems easier that way. It would allow for cloud-shaping, and it would let the Airbender move around their tornados and other long-lasting effects.

I looked into that before writing up the new text, but I couldn't think of a way to make it work smoothly. The other three elements' manipulation abilities are about manipulating the element directly, whereas the majority of Wind Shaping is about moving objects indirectly by manipulating air currents. I really wouldn't make sense to replace Wind Shaping with something heavily based on Manipulate or Move a Rock. That said, I did reference these other abilities when writing the new text.

I have a logical issue with the manipulate abilities and the earth and air seeds particles and dust. Both seem to be rather simple applications of the manipulate abilities that they don't seem to warrant their own seeds. I think letting them have those seeds without taking up seeds known would be an alright bonus to balance with the water and fires child of the sun/moon bonuses

In my mind, the reason these abilities are seeds instead of class features is because they're not foundational to the bending discipline. Every earthbender gets Earth Blast as a class feature, because every earthbender learns some version of that ability during training and uses it in combat. Not every earthbender needs to learn or uses the Dust seed in order to be an earthbender. For that reason, I think that it should remain a seed.

Mephibosheth

[Eighth_Seraph]

I'm with Meph on pretty much everything just mentioned.

Now, I'm glad that we're really buckling down on balance and intricate mechanics issues, but I'm sure I'm not the only one that finds this stage of production to be rather tedious. For those of us that are waiting for an opportunity to get creative past all this nit-picking of wording in forms, I may have an idea.

Simply put, we need forms. And lots of them. The Form Creation thread was a good place for us to put some useful and unorthodox combinations (many of which are no longer legal due to the changes we've made to the seeds in the past few months). What I want is a database of simple on-seed, two-seed and three-seed forms that could comprise a bender's bread and butter, with the minimum level that a bender could use it at. I am, essentially, asking for help in making a list of forms that would end up looking a lot like the 4e class powers list. Using our format, of course, not the format for powers. We'll reserve that for the eventual 4e conversion thread(s). Is it alright if I start a new thread for this, Meph? I think it would be simpler than to have all those forms that use outdated rules and need to weed them out.

[Mephibosheth]

Sounds great to me. Feel free to start a thread and I'll link it to the project hub. This sounds like a good way to get started on the possible 4e adaptation of the classes.

While were on the topic (this isn't really the best place to post this specific item, but what can you do ), another possible creative outlet that I've been putting off would be the fluffy development of the setting. We still have a few iconic character builds that should be completed (most notably Iroh and Azula, but I'm sure we can think of others), and there was talk of putting together a couple of sample villages or cities for each nation. There are also a few items and pieces of machinery that need to be developed, the weapons and armor pages need to be fleshed out, and it might be nice to have some generic class builds to give DM's help with their preparations.

Looking forward to the new thread! Any other comments on my proposed changes?

Mephibosheth

[Eighth_Seraph]

Yes. Sorta. If we're going to be doing much more on the bending mechanisms (which I'm getting a feeling we're not) we're gonna need a new thread. I dunno it it's the length of this thread, but it takes me almost a minute to move between two pages within it. Even if it's my imagination or my computer being quirky, I new thread is just about in order, assuming there's any more refining to be done with the bending system.

Though I do have some bones to pick with the prestige classes...

[Guyr Adamantine]

No need to start a new thread, lets just convert mine. I'm willing to do the job and add a compendium.

Please let me do it.

EDIT: Rot. In. Hell.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Erk. Sorry, Guyr, I didn't mean to steal your thunder like that... I already set up all of the preliminary work on the thread. To be perfectly honest, I would be happy to give you the thread. If you want me to rename the thread to "Ignore this" and let you start your own, I'm perfectly willing to do that. But I do like the set-up I have, and I think it's quite a bit more organized than the original. What do you want me to do?

[Guyr Adamantine]

Erk. Sorry, Guyr, I didn't mean to steal your thunder like that... I already set up all of the preliminary work on the thread. To be perfectly honest, I would be happy to give you the thread. If you want me to rename the thread to "Ignore this" and let you start your own, I'm perfectly willing to do that. But I do like the set-up I have, and I think it's quite a bit more organized than the original. What do you want me to do?

I'd be glad, but I realise you have some prcise goals and expectations toward that side-project, and I believe none is better served than by himself. (Or whatever how this expression is translated in english) I'll do do my best to help, though.

Lets do some fine job.

P.S: My "Rot in Hell" comment was a big sarcasm, you know. Nothing like emotionnal manipulation.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Alright, everyone. That's been taken care of; Guyr will be the one to handle the forms compendium. Now, on to the bones I mentioned earlier.

It seems to me that the Dai Li need some class-specific seeds to expand the use of their stone gloves. The Flying Fists ability is a nice start, but the class needs more, methinks, to match the versatility that would be offered by going straight earthbender. The shooting of individual finger-plate darts would be a good start, but I can't think of much else to add. All's I know is that the class needs its own seeds to really be worth something to a player (though it's quite sufficient as-is for NPCs).

[Guyr Adamantine]

Interesting... I think, as the Dai Li don't seem to have much special techniques beyond their stone fists, that we should first remove Flying Fist (The rules changes made it unneeded) and add some other sub-seeds, to complement them.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Looking back over the seeds that leading up to the prestige classes, I have to request that a bit of my earlier work be deleted from the project. Specifically, the Major Wounds clause of Healing Waters. I mean, what was I thinking? Jeez. Plus, it's a Disciple seed now, and I still think it doesn't fit the supposed limits that we've placed in this setting. Of course, that would mean that we'd need a new Disciple of Healing Waters seed to replace it.

Alright, everyone, guess what time it is! It's time to get creative! Yeehaw!

I'd like to propose some additions to the Dai Li. First, A revision to Grasp of the Dai Li and Defensive Roll. Second, a new special ability. Third, the creation of Dai Li class-specific seeds (though I'm perfectly alright with allowing them to choose from earthbender seeds if they'd prefer). I'll begin. Proposed edits in red and commentary in blue.

Grasp of the Dai Li - This technique of earthbending is a secret one dating back to the formation of the Dai Li by Avatar Kyoshi. By coating their fists, forearms, and feet with a thin layer of stone to use their earthbending, they minimize property damage and always have stone at hand, literally. A Dai Li agent takes a move action to create these stone gloves and shoes, which requires a DC 10 Earthbending check, or may create them as a swift action with a DC 30 Earthbending check. These are counted as a pair of gauntlets in terms of statistics, and either a pair of gauntlets or an unarmed strike in terms of weapon-based feats, at the agent's choice. Note that the Dai Li may only launch two hand and two foot techniques (through the Flying Fist ability or specific seeds) using this ability before new gloves and shoes must be created.

Flying Fist - By hardening the earth on his hands, the Dai Li may project his Grasp of the Dai Li via his Earth Blast ability at a target in the shape of his fist to cause grievous amounts of harm using the minimum amount of material. The precision of this attack is almost surgical, allowing the Dai Li to add precision-based damage to this ability, as well as dealing non-lethal damage by taking a -4 to attack rolls, if the agent so chooses. Using Flying Fist increases the Earthbending check on the use of Earth Blast by +10.

The reason for the foot reference is this screenshot. Notice that they're two separate abilities now, and that Handcuff is a seed now. I was thinking of turning Flying Fist into a seed, but it seems like the hallmark of the Dai Li, so I decided not to. At this point, it's basically a free template seed; like the blasts. Handcuff has been cannibalized and remade into the Arrest seed because Meph made a pair of pressure-launched handcuffs in the Item Creation Thread, which makes a handcuff ability a utility that's nice to have, but not absolutely necessary.

Defensive Roll - At 6th level, the Dai Li Agent can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per encounter, the Dai Li Agent can attempt to roll with the damage from a weapon strike or other blow. To use this ability, the Dai Li Agent must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the Dai Li Agent’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll. The Dai Li Agent gains another use of this ability at 9th level.

Notice that the thing about the attack reducing you to 0 or less damage is removed. It makes the ability less pointless now.

Stealth Climber (or something better-sounding) - At third level, a Dai Li learns to climb without ever leaving a trace, fusing his stone gloves with the stone, rather than carving a way up. Whenever a Dai Li agent uses his earthbender Climb ability, he no longer leaves hand and foot holds, so long as he is using his Grasp of the Dai Li ability.

I chose level 3 because it coincides with Obscure Passage, making third level the "My Dai Li superior taught me to be sneaky" level for the agent.

SEEDS

Arrest
Base DC: 20

Spoiler

Show

By firing a flurry of stony hands, the Dai Li may severely hamper the movement of fleeing quarry or a dangerous adversary.
Handcuffs: A Dai Li agent launches his Grasp of the Dai Li in a precisely-aimed pattern, controlling its path with his earthbending. By making an attack action, a Dai Li may try to bind a target to the ground or other earthen surface. The Dai Li makes an attack roll at a -4 penalty in order to attach one of the target's extremities (arms or legs in most situations) to the floor. If the attack is successful, the target may not move from its current square and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC, though it may make a DC 10 Strength check to break loose as a move action. Additional handcuff attacks increase the strength check DC by +2 each. Each successful handcuff also imposes a -5 to all bending checks by the target. This technique only works with the hand portion of Grasp of the Dai Li.
Capture: A target that has been hit by four handcuffs is considered immobilized (as per the terms of the Immobilize seed) but is still able to be moved by the Dai Li (with their own might or through earthbending).

Tell me what you think of everything. Still need some more seeds (at least three altogether).

[Pirate_King]

I'd suggest lowering the minimum level for entering the Dai Li PrC, 7 seems a bit steep, since it puts all the Dai Li agents in the show at least level 8, and, well. I dunno. I guess I don't really have a basis for my argument here other than it feels a bit off.

One thing I do have, though, is that team work infiltration should be something at first level, since I'm pretty sure we've never seen an agent alone (aside from the one who came to warn the gaang)

[jagadaishio]

I'd suggest lowering the minimum level for entering the Dai Li PrC, 7 seems a bit steep, since it puts all the Dai Li agents in the show at least level 8, and, well. I dunno. I guess I don't really have a basis for my argument here other than it feels a bit off.

One thing I do have, though, is that team work infiltration should be something at first level, since I'm pretty sure we've never seen an agent alone (aside from the one who came to warn the gaang)

I think that it's actually pretty reasonable to place them at that level. Remember, the main characters in the show are epic benders, so a Dai Lee with what would normally be a rather high level would still be pretty weak compared to them. That's how I see it, anyway.

[motionmatrix]

I been looking through the thread, very impressed by the way ^.^ , I just can't find some answers. I Been trying to mix avatar to work in a standard d20 game, everything translates fine, and I am keeping everything as true to the show as possible, but interaction with magic will happen, and I'm not sure how to handle these situations:

Bending and Spell resistance?

Is bending a spell-like ability, supernatural, etc?

how do you decide what is the equal of a form/seed to spell levels? important for example: spell reflection.

I know that this is a tangent to the main purpose of the thread, but if anyone has found an answer to these already, i would appreciate the info.

[Pirate_King]

this should go in the non-canon thread, but I would consider bending a super-natural ability, but I can't think of a reason for it to be subject to spell resistance.

Bending isn't magic, so spell reflection or counter-spells wouldn't work, though we really haven't given this any thought because we've been working from a non-magic setting. you might find some answers here

[Mephibosheth]

I been looking through the thread, very impressed by the way ^.^ , I just can't find some answers. I Been trying to mix avatar to work in a standard d20 game, everything translates fine, and I am keeping everything as true to the show as possible, but interaction with magic will happen, and I'm not sure how to handle these situations:

Bending and Spell resistance?

First, thanks for the vote of confidence! I'm glad you're enjoying the system. I'd agree with Pirate_King. Bending is about manipulating already-existing material or energy. In the same way that Conjuration spells like Orb of [Energy] aren't affected by spell resistance, neither would bending attacks.

Is bending a spell-like ability, supernatural, etc?

I'd say supernatural. We should probably specify that, now that I think of it.

how do you decide what is the equal of a form/seed to spell levels? important for example: spell reflection.

I would say that bending isn't affected by spell reflection, given that it isn't spell-based. In general, bending wouldn't be affected by anti-magic stuff like spell reflection or dispel magic. I could see a case for no bending in an anti-magic field, but even that is iffy in my mind.

[motionmatrix]

Thank you for the fast response!, I appreciate this so much. Making it supernatural answers almost everything (including antimagic field, which was my next question).

The other thing that is in my mind that does seem to belong in this thread:

I can't find a definite answer as to what seeds mixes with what seeds, what isn't allowed to mix with what

how far can you stretch a seed before it goes into a new or another seed altogether? I know this is a broad question, but I guess it may be answered with the above question.

and what is the bending time for seeds not specified; i.e. standard action, move action?

Ty 4 the help guys

^.^

[Mephibosheth]

I can't find a definite answer as to what seeds mixes with what seeds, what isn't allowed to mix with what

how far can you stretch a seed before it goes into a new or another seed altogether? I know this is a broad question, but I guess it may be answered with the above question.

The answer to this question is intentionally left vague. The general idea behind the system is that players and DM's will work together to come up with appropriate combinations of seeds. What is allowed and appropriate will inevitably vary from DM to DM. For example, I would most likely run a very strict canon game, keeping close to the abilities demonstrated in the show. This means that I would be likely to prohibit some of the more outrageous combinations of seeds. On the other hand, many DM's will want to run looser games, and will allow for crazier combinations.

and what is the bending time for seeds not specified; i.e. standard action, move action?

Unless specified in the seed, using a bending seed is a standard action. This is explained in the bending overview on the webpage, iirc.

Hope that helps!

Mephibosheth

[Eighth_Seraph]

What, no comments on my suggested Dai Li revision? I'll break it down and make it easier to swallow, then.

Original text in black.
My edits to existing abilities in red.
New abilities in green.
My own commentary and explanations in blue.

Grasp of the Dai Li (revised)

Spoiler

Show

This technique of earthbending is a secret one dating back to the formation of the Dai Li by Avatar Kyoshi. By coating their fists, forearms, and feet with a thin layer of stone to use their earthbending, they minimize property damage and always have stone at hand, literally. A Dai Li agent may create these stone gloves and shoes with a standard action by making a DC 10 Earthbending check, a move action with a DC 20 check or a swift action with a DC 30 Earthbending check. The Grasp of the Dai Li are counted as either a pair of gauntlets or unarmed strikes in terms of weapon-based feats, at the agent's choice, and deal damage as such. Note that the Dai Li may only launch two hand and two foot techniques (through the Flying Fist ability or specific seeds) using this ability before new gloves and shoes must be created.

Flying Fist (revised)

Spoiler

Show

By hardening the earth on his hands, the Dai Li may project his Grasp of the Dai Li via his Earth Blast ability at a target in the shape of his fist to cause grievous amounts of harm using the minimum amount of material. The precision of this attack is almost surgical, allowing the Dai Li to add precision-based damage to this ability, as well as dealing non-lethal damage by taking a -4 to attack rolls, if the agent so chooses. Using Flying Fist increases the Earthbending check on the use of Earth Blast by +10.

Explanation

Spoiler

Show

The reason for the foot reference is this screenshot. Notice that they're two separate abilities now, and that Handcuff is a seed now. I was thinking of turning Flying Fist into a seed, but it seems like the hallmark of the Dai Li, so I decided not to. At this point, it's basically a free template seed; like the blasts. Handcuff has been cannibalized and remade into the Arrest seed because Meph made a pair of pressure-launched handcuffs in the Item Creation Thread, which makes a handcuff ability a utility that's nice to have, but not absolutely necessary.

Defensive Roll (revised)

Spoiler

Show

At 6th level, the Dai Li Agent can roll with a potentially lethal blow to take less damage from it than she otherwise would. Once per encounter, the Dai Li Agent can attempt to roll with the damage from a weapon strike or other blow. To use this ability, the Dai Li Agent must attempt a Reflex saving throw (DC = damage dealt). If the save succeeds, she takes only half damage from the blow; if it fails, she takes full damage. She must be aware of the attack and able to react to it in order to execute her defensive roll—if she is denied her Dexterity bonus to AC, she can’t use this ability. Since this effect would not normally allow a character to make a Reflex save for half damage, the Dai Li Agent’s evasion ability does not apply to the defensive roll. The Dai Li Agent gains another use of this ability at 9th level.

Explanation

Spoiler

Show

Notice that the thing about the attack reducing you to 0 or less damage is removed. It makes the ability less pointless now.

Stealth Climber (or some better name)

Spoiler

Show

At third level, a Dai Li learns to climb without ever leaving a trace, fusing his stone gloves with the stone he climbs, rather than carving a way up. So long as he is using his Grasp of the Dai Li ability, a Dai Li agent no longer leaves hand and foot holds when he uses his earthbender Climb ability. In addition, a Dai Li may now climb while using her Hide and Move Silently abilities normally.

Explanation

Spoiler

Show

I chose level 3 because it coincides with Obscure Passage, making third level the "My Dai Li superior taught me to be sneaky" level for the agent. I would, however, also imagine that the ability is basic enough to be pushed back to first level.

SEEDS

Arrest
Base DC: 20

Spoiler

Show

By firing a flurry of stony hands, the Dai Li may severely hamper the movement of fleeing quarry or a dangerous adversary.
Handcuffs: A Dai Li agent launches his Grasp of the Dai Li in a precisely-aimed pattern, controlling its path with his earthbending. By making an attack action, a Dai Li may try to bind a target to the ground or other earthen surface. The Dai Li makes an attack roll at a -4 penalty in order to attach one of the target's extremities (arms or legs in most situations) to the floor. If the attack is successful, the target may not move from its current square and loses its Dexterity bonus to AC, though it may make a DC 10 Strength check to break loose as a move action. Additional handcuff attacks increase the strength check DC by +2 each. Each successful handcuff also imposes a -5 to all bending checks by the target. This technique only works with the hand portion of Grasp of the Dai Li.
Capture: A target that has been hit by four handcuffs is considered immobilized (as per the terms of the Immobilize seed) but is still able to be moved by the Dai Li (with their own might or through earthbending).

[motionmatrix]

Originally Posted by Eight_Seraph
Stealth Climber (or some better name)

At third level, a Dai Li learns to climb without ever leaving a trace, fusing his stone gloves with the stone he climbs, rather than carving a way up. So long as he is using his Grasp of the Dai Li ability, a Dai Li agent no longer leaves hand and foot holds when he uses his earthbender Climb ability.

In the show, it seems like the Dai Li also use hide and move silently with this ability without any penalty.

It could also allow them to move faster than their actual earthbending climb speed when using the Grasp of the Dai Li, further making the PrC different than the Earthbending base class.

[ErrantX]

I like your revisions to my Dai Li Agent PrC Eighth_Seraph, good work, good stuff :)

-X

[Eighth_Seraph]

I like your suggestions, Matrix, I'll add them in.

Alright, I also have some bones to pick with the Disciple of Healing Waters; but I'll start with the foundation for the class, which is the Healing Waters seed. First of all, we need to remove the Major Wounds clause in the seed, for two reasons. One, it's terribly out of line with the show. Two, it's a already a Disciple seed. Yes, I wrote it. I must have been high on the Holy Ghost that day.

Now, let's move on to the PrC itself. First, we need to remove the references to vitality and wound points in Sense the Lifestream. Like so.

Spoiler

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By touching a willing or helpless living creature and sensing how the body devotes chi and nutrients to certain areas of the body, a disciple of healing waters can assess the physical and spiritual health of the creature. The disciple must focus on feeling the creature’s lifestream for a full round to feel its pathways before learning what ails it. After this first round of focus, the disciple learns of any wounds the creature possesses (current total and possible hit points). On subsequent rounds, the disciple of healing waters can decide to search the body’s systems for any one of the following ailments, each requiring a full-round action of concentration to assess.
• Pathogens (disease, viruses, infection, etc.)
• Toxic substances (poisons, if still active)
• Damage to specific body parts (caltrop wounds, broken bones, burned skin, damaged organs)
• Physical debilitation (Strength, Dexterity, or Constitution damage)
• Mental enfeeblement (Intelligence, Wisdom, or Charisma damage)
• Permanent damage (Ability drain)
• Spiritual infirmity (Strong negative emotion, absence of the creature’s spirit, possession)
• Altered state of mind (hypnosis, barbarian rage, deep confusion, etc.)

I'm also unsure about keeping the Major Wounds seed at all, but I can't think of anything to replace it. Maybe an ability that allows the Disciple to re-attach a limb that has been cut off, rather than growing a new one?

[Mephibosheth]

Sorry it's taken me so long to respond to the modifications of the Dai Li and Disciple of the Healing Waters PrC's. I've been procrastinating. I have no excuse. *hangs head in shame*

Dai Li PrC:

I think I'm (by and large) supportive of all your suggested changes, Eighth_Seraph. It definitely addresses the uselessness issues of Flying Fists while not letting the ability become overpowering and creating interesting synergy within the class. I agree we need some new Dai Li seeds, but can't think of any at the moment.

My only suggestion is that I don't think an attack roll penalty is necessary to deal non-lethal damage with Flying Fists. I'd say just let them deal leathal or non-leathal damage as they choose. I can't think of any new names for Stealth Climbing at the moment, but I'm sure we'll come up with something.

Disciple of the Healing Waters:

Again, I support these changes. I've already removed the Major Wounds application from the Healing Waters seed on the website, and I'll do the same on the forum. I also support the clarifications of Sense the Lifestream. Finally, I think that if we must have a "fixing broken/removed limbs" seed, the version about re-attaching arms is better than regrowing them. Having the severed limb should be a prerequisite to that level of healing, if it's possible at all.

Finally, note that I've updated the versions of the classes that appear in this thread. I was woefully negligent in my duty to keep them updated, and I apologize. They should be good now, by and large.

Mephibosheth

[Eighth_Seraph]

Alright then...how about this?

Restore Pathway
Base DC 30

Spoiler

Show

There are times when a healer must not only repair damage to a patient's body, but replace something which has been lost completely. It is in this case that a Disciple must establish a new flow of chi to allow the body to recognize and heal the destroyed limb.
• If a Disciple of Healing Waters makes a successful Heal check to provide long-term care to any creature with a severed, crushed or otherwise useless limb or body part, she may make a Waterbending check (using one of her daily uses of Greater Healing Waters) in order to re-establish the body's flow of nutrients and energy to the afflicted area. The damaged body part must be reasonably whole and present. In the case of severed limbs, the Disciple re-attaches the limb and allows the body to recognize it as part of itself.

Restoring a chi pathway requires one use of this seed each day for one week, during which the limb is completely useless and must be kept relatively stationary (A sling or cast is sufficient for this). After the seventh application of this seed, the patient's body can begin its own healing process, mending the damage to the limb itself.This generally takes between four and six weeks, during which the limb must remain relatively stationary. Daily application of the Healing Waters seed can cut this time in half.

[Mephibosheth]

I like it. It has a pretty high DC and a really long duration, which it what I would expect for this time of healing in the Avatarverse. It looks pretty good.

[Pirate_King]

I like both fixes, though I'd suggest a higher strength check for getting out of the arrest seed, as an "average" person (with a str of 10) can break out %50 of the time.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Yes, but that's only true if the Dai Li only uses one handcuff. The whole point of this seed is to be used as a sneak attack. Two Dai Li each launching both their hands automatically immobilize the target, and if one hit misses the DC is still a 16. I think it's a fair trade-off. If anyone else thinks the DC is too low, then I'll up it a bit.

OR I can make the target have to break each handcuff individually, which would be interesting, though likely overpowered.