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2008-07-21, 04:46 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
Last edited by felinoel; 2008-07-21 at 04:46 AM.
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2008-07-21, 06:31 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
I'm not entirely sure if that counts as 3 full levels, in fact it may only count for 1 level, or possibly just the fluff training for realization of a new level. Sokka's training with his sword master though definatly increased his level though.... although technically game wise he should have only gain fairly little xp for that, so he was prolly about halfway or more to a new level anyway.
I also came up with a new idea, it may have been come up with before and I missed it though:
Cooperative Bending:
Two or more benders from different nations may combine seeds together.
Using this two benders would combine the power of their elements together, for example a firebender could combine Fire Burst with and earthbender's Stone Armor to give flaming earth armor, or bend fire into Blades of Flame over a waterbender's Water Whip. The bending DCs for each seed added are increased by +2 for non-opposing elements, ie- fire or water with earth or air, or +5 for opposing elements. Bending with someone else makes it a good bit more difficult to bend your own element as well. Each bender must make the DC for their own seeds (including penalties for cooperative bending), plus increasing the DC for their bending by half the DCs of the seeds used by the other bender (including penalties for cooperative bending, rounded up).
In the given examples:
To combine Fire Burst and Stone Armor:
The DC for the earthbender is equal to Stone Armor (DC 15) +2 for bending with a non-opposing element, for a DC of 17, plus one half of Fire Burst (DC 25+2, for DC27, divided by 2 rounded up= DC 14), for a total earthbending DC of 31.
The DC for the firebender is equal to Fire Burst (DC 25) +2 for bending with a non-opposing element, for a DC of 27, plus one half of Stone Armor (DC 15+2, for DC 17, divided by 2, rounded up= DC 9) for a total firebending DC of 36.
To combine Blades of Fire and Water Whip:
The DC for the waterbender is equal to Water Whip (DC 10) +5 for bending with an opposing element, for a DC of 15, plus one half of Blades of Fire (DC 10+5, for DC 15, divided by 2, rounded up= DC 8), for a total waterbending DC of 23.
The DC for the firebender is equal to Blades of Fire (DC 10) +5 for bending with an opposing element, for a DC of 15, plus one half of Water Whip (DC 10+5, for DC 15, divided by 2, rounded up= DC 8), for a total firebending DC of 23.
Using this it's easy to see why in the show the only one you see really using combinations of elements is the Avatar, generally even when you have groups of different benders they still prefer to attack on their own- the DCs for cooperative bending can really add up, as well as all the benders contributing to it sacrifice actions for one single attack. But I can see times when this could be used. (In fact I think this may be what happened in the Drill, with Katara contributing manipulate and toph contributing move a rock, thus providing each greater control over the slurry as a whole. I would assume that the Avatar could combine seeds from different elements for no DC increase for non-opposing elements, and only a +2 increase for opposing elements, and those DCs would be used when the Avatar cooperatively bends with other benders.
Last but defiantly not least this is only for two or more benders of different disciplines. If two waterbenders are both bending the same water it falls under aid another, not cooperative bending. However if you have 2 or more benders at hand for any or all of the elements used in cooperative bending, they could use aid another to help out the main benders.
I kind of like this concept, as it really give the feel of one world where all the elements have a part and can work in harmony with eachother. What does everyone else think?Last edited by Katasi; 2008-07-21 at 06:32 AM.
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2008-07-21, 06:35 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
With Piandao, Sokka trained for three days, with Suki, he trained for one, and I think Sokka only should have gotten one level from Suki too
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2008-07-21, 06:37 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-07-21, 06:39 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-07-21, 06:43 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
No, but I'm basing my arguements off of a couple years of playing and DMing DnD games, which while different in actual play, are probably a good basis to go by for things like XP gain basis.... although i do admit that the main character DO tend to seem like they are gaining XP faster than they should, although we don't know the exact propotionate level of their opponents and trainers either, and I've been in a few battles in DnD that where difficult enough to warrant a full level worth of XP for a single battle, and there's been a few "epic" battles in the Avatar series.
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2008-07-21, 06:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
Why not look?
http://avatar.d20.googlepages.com/sokka
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2008-07-21, 06:47 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-07-21, 06:50 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-07-21, 06:53 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
ah. Well they make sense, though I'm not sure they are the builds I would use for him. The hard part is that these don't give his power level at the points we are actually discussing, as well as they are just estimates, although I'm betting reasonably close estimates. Of course then again PCs do level fast when given no downtime, and Team Avatar was given very little during the series, so it make sense that they leveled fast..... but as a DM I'd prolly find ways to insert downtime for more role-play driven things.
Btw, what do you think of cooperative bending?Last edited by Katasi; 2008-07-21 at 06:54 AM.
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2008-07-21, 06:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
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2008-07-21, 07:01 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
Hmm, I think Sokka could possibly have a level or two in ranger, but I think his ability to ID tracks could just be attributed to a high survival skill, and possible the track feat, rather than actual ranger levels. In fact I think mixing fighter levels with martial wilderness rogue could produce something close to sokka (notice I say martial rogue, none of Sokka's attacks strike me as sneak attacks). I say that because somehow, wild empathy doesn't seem to fit.
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2008-07-21, 07:05 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
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2008-07-21, 07:19 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
Hmm.... yeah, favored environment fits. Although Sokka never seems to be more or less effective depending on his environment, but I could be wrong. He does however have an amazing amount of knowledge about the fire nation, so favored enemy COULD be in play there, or just a very high knowledge skill. Perhaps switch out wild empathy for something? Which is, I assume what you did with animal companion? Switched it out for another ability, in that cast Favored Enemy (Fire Nation Military)?
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2008-07-21, 07:21 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
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2008-07-21, 07:27 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
Better to die on our feet than live on our knees.
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2008-07-21, 07:33 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
Last edited by felinoel; 2008-07-21 at 07:34 AM.
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2008-07-21, 07:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
Hawky was a pet, not a animal companion. Same as a horse for most characters that don't get animal companion/special mount in a normal DnD campaign.
What about having a sandbender 20 level PrC AND a sandbending template seed for those that are practiced in sandbending but not specialized in it? Have it so that the sandbender PrC makes more sense for those who plan to be bending sand regularly or solely, but the template seed gives a little extra punch over a normal earthbender when using sand.Better to die on our feet than live on our knees.
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2008-07-21, 07:45 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
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2008-07-21, 07:55 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
I think that difference could actually be accounted for just in the seeds they normally take. While a normal waterbender would prolly take water whip and ice shard, the swamp benders would take bend plants and propel, out of personal preferance. But I could see arguments for both sides.... perhaps a compromise of some sort in the form of something akin to the ranger's weapon styles, giving a -2 or so reduction to the DCs of certain seeds that would be pretty much unique to a given style.... and probably a +2 or so increase to the DCs of seeds unique to the opposing style. Might have to try to come up with some more seeds that scream "swamp style" though.
Last edited by Katasi; 2008-07-21 at 07:56 AM.
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2008-07-21, 07:59 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-07-21, 08:06 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
Bend plants for one is an obvious swamp style, while ice shards is an obvious polar. Propel seems like a standard one for the swamp style, while more of a specialist one for polar. While Blizzard is another one that's obviously polar. I'm thinking about having it where a bender could take a feat to learn the other style as well. But I'm really not sure. I'm just throwing out ideas.
Last edited by Katasi; 2008-07-21 at 08:07 AM.
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2008-07-21, 08:09 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
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2008-07-21, 08:17 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
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2008-07-21, 08:56 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
See, we call this in the business a thread derailing. Let's bring this baby back on its way to Ba Sing Se, eh? The Sokka leveling is not particularly relevant to the bending system, so let's let it lie where it is. As for the different "styles" of waterbending, it is a possibility, but I'd make it an optional one, like regional traits and the like. I had considered putting regional traits in the original write-up, but, again, it was something that would have been tedious and tenuously based on canon at best. If anyone wants to write up a series of regional traits representing different types of bending (Sun Warrior vs. Fire Nation, for example) and their pros and cons, then go for it. But I'm not going to be the one writing up that kind of flame-bait. I'm more of a seeds 'n' forms kinda guy.
Relevant discussions that have not been concluded are these:- Deciding whether to adapt the existing Sandbending PrC or to scrap it and start from the ground up.
- Developing and deciding whether this system should allow cross-element cooperative bending.
- Deciding whether the term "Master Bender" should have a mechanical context, as per "Master Jedi" in SWRPG.
All earthbenders should be able to bend sand... Its just that sandbenders seem to have different moves when doing that, like swampbenders and waterbenders
Now let's start on deciding these three things, huh? My cote on Sandbending has already been cast, making it 2 - 0 in favor of starting from scratch.
I'm not particularly keen on making a system for cross-element cooperative bending. We've never seen it in the show except when two benders were essentially doing the same thing. For the Avatar, normal rules for creating forms would apply. Now, Katasi, your idea is intriguing, but it's a bit clumsy to read. Could you try and explain it so that I can understand it through the illiterate haze that overcomes me during summer vacation?
I'm only opposed to bonus feats for benders because of balance issues. I also don't like the idea of "Master Waterbender" being an actual mechanic in the classes, and it definitely shouldn't be before level 15 if the mechanic were to exist. This makes the vote 0 - 1 against using "Master Bender" as a mechanic.Water, Earth, Fire, and Air: Benders of the Avatar worldAvatar By the amazing Mephibosheth
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2008-07-21, 09:20 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
I know you said Burning Rush would work to demonstrate firebenders who fly, but a certain Old Master in the finale was able to levitate and fight from that position, and while I see the appeal in anyone insisting on flying having to brace the risk of falling when they attack, there's no way for them to actually get a mid-air boost from the seed currently. Perhaps a very high level seed could grant a fly speed with clumsy or poor maneuverability and a hover?
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2008-07-21, 09:29 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
Basically for Cooperative Bending, each bender's DC for their bending skill is increased by either +2 or +5, depending on if the element of the other bender is opposed to their element or not. Their DC is based on the full DC of all of their seeds, plus half the DC of any seeds of other elements. The increased DC applies to all seeds, not just seeds of the bender's own element, but it goes onto the other elemental seeds before halving the DC.
Basically the bending DC becomes equal to the combined DCs of all the seeds that belong to the bender, plus half the combined DCs of the seeds that belong to other benders, with the increased DCs for cooperative bending figured in.
As for "Master Bender" I just want something in there somewhere that says to everyone "This is where a bender is considered a master." And if a feat is to much of a breaker for a mechanic, what about a simple +1 bonus to the respective bending skill?
And on the sandbending thing, I still support my argument. Maybe make bending sand a major increase in DC for a normal earthbender, make a sandbending template seed that is still an increase over normal earthbending, but only about half or so that of it without having the seed, and then have an earthbender PrC that can bend sand with no penalty, and gets sandbender only seeds?
I'd say if there was one like this it would probably be a higher DC than bloodbending, probably around 60-65, since good flight/hover using fire from the feet was only displayed by two of the most powerful firebenders in the world and then they could only do it during the comet.Last edited by Katasi; 2008-07-21 at 09:33 AM.
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2008-07-21, 10:40 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II
I'm looking at Burning Rush again, and if I understand the system right, it's +30 to convert it to a move action. I think that's about right for crude mid-air propulsion. Let me propose an equally crude solution.
SpoilerFirebender's Leap: A sudden jet of flames erupts from the bender's legs, allowing him to reach incredible heights. By taking a full-round action to make a jump, a firebender gains a bonus on his Jump equal to his Firebending check, and the jump is not limited by the firebender's height. An additional move action can be taken as part of this seed, but only in order to gain a running start for the jump.
Due to the nature of explosive force, the speed at which this technique is performed can affect its ability to propel the user.
When quickened to a standard action, the bender may use it to slow his fall for the next round, and every additional round he uses a standard action to maintain the flames. The firebender is treated as having fallen no more than 30 feet for the duration of this effect.
When quickened to a move action, it generates explosive force quickly enough that the bender may use it to leap even when there is nothing solid beneath his feet. However, when leaping in mid-air he must move the full distance of his Jump check, even if it carries him further than he wishes. (This restriction is not in place for a normal jump.)
By adding an additional +20 to the DC, the firebender may choose to move less than the distance he is able when leaping in mid-air, including a distance of 0 feet to hover.
Reword or discard as you see fit.
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2008-07-21, 11:04 AM (ISO 8601)
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2008-07-21, 11:07 AM (ISO 8601)
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Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II