[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[Eighth_Seraph]

Er, this would be great in a martial artist class (like this one), but we need to make sure that we put in this thread is directly related to the bending classes. I'm somewhat experienced in martial arts (ten years of Tae Kwon Do, with some dabbling in other arts), so I understand what the text is saying; and it's difficult to put into a firebending technique, to say the least. The idea behind the initial strike of the Flower Set (the 'bait' attack) as described in your link is to anticipate your opponent's punch and counter with your own punch on the same side before it connects, so that your extended arm deflects your opponent's punch without needing to use one hand to block and the other to attack.

The concept could be useful, yes, but it sounds more like a tactical feat than a firebender class ability. Try writing it up if you'd like, then we can see if the firebender can use it.

[endoperez]

The concept could be useful, yes, but it sounds more like a tactical feat than a firebender class ability. Try writing it up if you'd like, then we can see if the firebender can use it.

I haven't played enough D&D to hope to do anything but very simple stuff. I tried to help because I really like this project, but it seems I only managed to derail the discussion a bit. This is a rather simple idea and probably far from balanced, but perhaps it's useful as a concept for something else:

Aggressive counterattack.
A firebender deals extra damage when using his Fire Blast ability against enemies that attacked him during the last round. The damage starts from 1d6 at 4th level, and increases by further 1d6 for every 4 levels, for maximum of +5d6 at level 20.

[AstralFire]

Okay, the prototype firebender is pretty much done, with some examples.

http://www.giantitp.com/forums/showthread.php?p=4581152

[String]

On the topic of Firebenders, and benders in general: While staring absently at the IrohITP at the top of the firebender writeup, I was struck with a question: Is it possible to split your blasts, or seeds? I guess you might say that the bender in question is simply targetting two people with consecutive Blasts, but I'm wondering if you can split your blast to target two opponents simultaneously? I seem to remember Zuko or Iroh doing something like striking with a hand and a foot on opposite sides and firing off blasts. Just a thought

[ErrantX]

I've a couple more things I'd like to toss out there, as it seems to be problematic on some level.

I hate the overbending rules in their entirety, and in fact wish they'd go away. I'd much prefer action points ala Unearthed Arcana / d20SRD. Can someone tell me why we have overbending again? It's been a long time since I've lingered and I'm curious to find out.

Next, we could just make all airbending seeds that do direct damage do either a decreased damage die or make it do non-lethal damage. All Study Feats require someone who has the feat or a bender of the appropriate type to teach it (maybe a special clause we add into the actual feat's description).

I don't want to be the guy to beat a dead horse, but I also have to think that we've come an awful long way and really have an incredible product here. I am afraid that we're tinkering with it because we don't have anything else to do with ourselves when it comes to this product. Now I'm trying to hurt anyone's feelings by saying that the new blood here should keep their mouths shut on glaring problems, but at the same time, not everyone who comes through the door should be able to suggest a drastic overhaul just because they think they could do it better.

Not trying to call anyone out, I'm just saying. Take it as it is.

-X

[AstralFire]

I guess you might say that the bender in question is simply targetting two people with consecutive Blasts, but I'm wondering if you can split your blast to target two opponents simultaneously?

How would that really be any different from consecutive blast targeting? Due to the turn-based nature, it's not like there's an actual speed difference.

I've a couple more things I'd like to toss out there, as it seems to be problematic on some level.

I hate the overbending rules in their entirety, and in fact wish they'd go away. I'd much prefer action points ala Unearthed Arcana / d20SRD. Can someone tell me why we have overbending again? It's been a long time since I've lingered and I'm curious to find out.

Next, we could just make all airbending seeds that do direct damage do either a decreased damage die or make it do non-lethal damage. All Study Feats require someone who has the feat or a bender of the appropriate type to teach it (maybe a special clause we add into the actual feat's description).

I don't want to be the guy to beat a dead horse, but I also have to think that we've come an awful long way and really have an incredible product here. I am afraid that we're tinkering with it because we don't have anything else to do with ourselves when it comes to this product. Now I'm trying to hurt anyone's feelings by saying that the new blood here should keep their mouths shut on glaring problems, but at the same time, not everyone who comes through the door should be able to suggest a drastic overhaul just because they think they could do it better.

Not trying to call anyone out, I'm just saying. Take it as it is.

-X

Well, I'm pretty much the main 'new blood' of the last few pages and I'm the only one suggesting any overhauls, so it's kind of hard to avoid me thinking you're talking to me.

There are very few products that cannot be improved; even mechanically amazing supplements like the XPH, Tome of Battle and Complete Warrior had a few duds in 'em. My suggestions are from the aspect of an optimizer and are meant to be helpful, and even what little I've done draws largely on the huge amounts that were done before.

[String]

Something I just noticed, a wording confusion: In the Child of the Sun/Moon abilities it states:

During the day, firebenders gain a +2 circumstance bonus on Firebending checks due to the influence of the sun. Additionally, during the passage of a comet near the planet, Firebenders gain an additional +5 circumstance bonus to Firebending checks.

(with mostly identical language for the waterbenders ability)And while it could be obvious that the +2 for Day/Night and the +5 for Comet/FullMoon stack, perhaps in the name of clarity the clause "for a total of +7" should be added to the end of that last sentence?

[Eighth_Seraph]

Well, I'm pretty much the main 'new blood' of the last few pages and I'm the only one suggesting any overhauls, so it's kind of hard to avoid me thinking you're talking to me.

I'm sorry about this, Astral, but I'm going to have to agree with X, who is a great deal better with tact than I am. I greatly appreciate you pointing out what should have been a glaring design error in the firebender, but the solution is not a complete overhaul to the system that has worked so well up until this point. The problem is that you've given us a project that looks like it's been through the U.S. Senate; loaded with earmarks. It's generally not a good idea to write up new names for established seeds, create new seeds, undermine a foundational principle of BAB-based iterative attacks, revamp basic abilities, grant bonus feats, and propose a whole new direction to take a year-and-a-half old class concept, all in one post, and then get a thumbs-up on it all. Relax, and take it one ability at a time, so we can work together to edit and critique.

Now, I do take the suggested changes seriously. I, for one, am all for adopting this table for Play with Fire, with DCs slightly increased.

Spoiler

Show

{table=head]Fire Size|Example|Damage|Animated Height or Length|DC
Fine | Tindertwig | 1 | < 5 ft. | 6
Diminutive | Torch | 1d3 | < 5 ft. | 11
Tiny | Small Campfire | 1d6 | 5 ft. | 13
Small | Large Campfire | 2d6 | 10 ft. | 16
Medium | Forge | 3d6 | 15 ft. | 20
Large | Bonfire | 4d6 | 20 ft. | 25
Huge | Burning Shack | 5d6 | 30 ft. | 31
Gargantuan | Burning Tavern | 6d6 | 40 ft. | 38
Colossal | Burning Inn | 7d6 | 55 ft. | 46
Colossal+ | Burning Village | 8d6 | 70 ft. | 55[/table]

I hate the overbending rules in their entirety, and in fact wish they'd go away. I'd much prefer action points ala Unearthed Arcana / d20SRD. Can someone tell me why we have overbending again? It's been a long time since I've lingered and I'm curious to find out.

Because overbending is more thematically appropriate than action points and, more importantly, incurs fatigue and other ill effects. Also, Overbending can grant far more spectacular results at high levels, though at high risk.

[AstralFire]

I'm sorry about this, Astral, but I'm going to have to agree with X, who is a great deal better with tact than I am. I greatly appreciate you pointing out what should have been a glaring design error in the firebender, but the solution is not a complete overhaul to the system that has worked so well up until this point. The problem is that you've given us a project that looks like it's been through the U.S. Senate; loaded with earmarks. It's generally not a good idea to write up new names for established seeds, create new seeds, undermine a foundational principle of BAB-based iterative attacks, revamp basic abilities, grant bonus feats, and propose a whole new direction to take a year-and-a-half old class concept, all in one post, and then get a thumbs-up on it all. Relax, and take it one ability at a time, so we can work together to edit and critique.

Now, I do take the suggested changes seriously. I, for one, am all for adopting this table for Play with Fire, with DCs slightly increased.

Spoiler

Show

{table=head]Fire Size|Example|Damage|Animated Height or Length|DC
Fine | Tindertwig | 1 | < 5 ft. | 6
Diminutive | Torch | 1d3 | < 5 ft. | 11
Tiny | Small Campfire | 1d6 | 5 ft. | 13
Small | Large Campfire | 2d6 | 10 ft. | 16
Medium | Forge | 3d6 | 15 ft. | 20
Large | Bonfire | 4d6 | 20 ft. | 25
Huge | Burning Shack | 5d6 | 30 ft. | 31
Gargantuan | Burning Tavern | 6d6 | 40 ft. | 38
Colossal | Burning Inn | 7d6 | 55 ft. | 46
Colossal+ | Burning Village | 8d6 | 70 ft. | 55[/table]

Because overbending is more thematically appropriate than action points and, more importantly, incurs fatigue and other ill effects. Also, Overbending can grant far more spectacular results at high levels, though at high risk.

I am aware that the system is... radical, and I was very much aware as I began the idea last night that most of the ideas would be rejected. It's extremely arrogant of me to come in to an old, established project and suggest so much. I'm aware of that, I said that last night, and I apologize... however, you have all of my ideas in one plate to look at, rather than me submitting everything piece by piece. Some changes are harder to make than others because you have to consider what everything does. Making DC suggestions is particularly hard to do one at a time given the very nature of the system, which is part of why I felt compelled to show everything at once.

I definitely feel that increasing the firebender flurry, while mechanically effective, is the wrong way to go with improving their issues. A round is six seconds, and firebenders, though fluid, I don't really recall shooting off a blast every second. However, by the same token, increasing dice amount is a bad idea because of the suggested VP/WP rules.

Frankly, I don't care if the foundation of my prototype, the lack of iterative blast, is completely ignored. I'm getting the ideas out there.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Alright then, would you please give is a brief overview of each of your proposed changes? I'm still not sure what your alternative to iterative attacks is for the firebender.

[endoperez]

A round is six seconds, and firebenders, though fluid, I don't really recall shooting off a blast every second. H

There are some examples of "shooting off a blast every second":
- Practice. The "form" practice various characters are seen performing when they practice their firebending basically consists of firing sevearal consecutive blasts in a few seconds' time.
- Also, in some of his fights, Zuko keeps alternating his hands and shooting fireblasts at his opponent. His duel with Zhao, the end fight of season two where he fires four blasts in a very short time, etc.

I'm another "new blood" here, and I also hope I'm not a nuisance.

[AstralFire]

There are some examples of "shooting off a blast every second":
- Practice. The "form" practice various characters are seen performing when they practice their firebending basically consists of firing sevearal consecutive blasts in a few seconds' time.
- Also, in some of his fights, Zuko keeps alternating his hands and shooting fireblasts at his opponent. His duel with Zhao, the end fight of season two where he fires four blasts in a very short time, etc.

That is true; a seed should be made to illustrate that, but it still isn't something we see happening all the time, which is what the system currently implies.

I'm another "new blood" here, and I also hope I'm not a nuisance.

Doubt it; I'm the one raising cane[sp?] around here.

Alright then, would you please give is a brief overview of each of your proposed changes? I'm still not sure what your alternative to iterative attacks is for the firebender.

Right then.

1) Rise with/Child of the Sun. Environment bonus because Focused Bending is a circumstance bonus and that should really stack. Name change was just because I really liked Zuko's line from the S1 finale.

2) Fire Blast: There are two sources of damage - skill roll, and the two empowering class features, Firepower. By basing the damage primarily on skill roll (with a restriction of die per HD or level), bending blasts do not suffer quite as much from multiclassing. Currently, any class the bender enters that does not advance his bending blast damage will hurt his damage significantly (except in the case of sneak attack, which advances much faster than bending damage.) However, if you're willing to burn skill points under the prototype system, you're able to keep up your fire blast damage for a while.

This is especially true in a VP/WP system, as only the number of dice is relevant to how much damage you deal on a critical hit, not any unrolled damage like from the Firepower multipliers. Long-term class switching will still hurt your damage, though, as Firepower multipliers are necessary to keep up with the power bumps that occur as martial classes add iterative attacks. They're timed to show up around the same time most characters get iterative attack increases.

Making bending blasts a standard attack limits the amount of rolls made a round to a degree (especially when deflecting a lot); in the current system, a fire and an airbender going at each other at level 20 are throwing around about 6 d20 rolls a round each, half of those are getting negated by Deflect Attack.

In the prototype, it is expected that a bender will quicken a second blast to a move action if they want to just stand in one place and shoot for maximum damage. They lose out on a little bit less than half of their damage if they don't, which means that there is incentive to double attack without completely penalizing them for moving. As dependent as the current system is on a full attack, there's almost no point in firing a single bending blast if you had to use your move action on something that round.

I suspect that issue was noticed in the current system, given the feats Circle Walking and Mobile Mastery, but Mobile Mastery has high requirements not every bender can make, and Circle Walking can only be effectively taken by Airbenders, as they're the only ones that gain Tumble as a class skill, and benders don't have many skill points to spare. (Those feats also allow for a phenomenon, at least with firebenders that do qualify, that there are very few situations where a full attack action isn't the only good choice, basically when you need to run as a full-round. You may want to look at that, at higher levels anyone with either feat essentially gets to full-attack as a standard action; there's a reason that kind of motion in D&D tends to be hard to get access to and is typically given to melee only.)

I feel one blast every 3 seconds, with the rare one blast every 2 is a bit closer to the feel of the combat in the show, as well.

3) Manipulate Fire: This got greatly expanded because this seed is, in essence, any manipulation of fire that doesn't require a specific shape or needs to move very fast. You can make fire walls now with this. This name was just for ease when portmanteauing new form names.

4) Base Attack Bonus: Fire benders are the most offensively oriented of the bending classes, and I felt they should be the most precise at attacking as a result. Just as Earth currently gets a bigger HD, I would probably switch Water to have all good saves and Air can keep its higher AC and Evasion.

5) Bonus Feats: A good way to encourage firebender personalization, but it wouldn't be gamebreaking if they didn't have them. I'd propose something similar for all bending classes to reflect the differing styles.

6) Multiple Applications of Seeds: I attempted to split or remove all 'second uses' of seeds. The only time that that wasn't successful was with Incandescence, where the two moves are very logical progressions of one another that nonetheless could not be easily summed up into one ability. Propulsion and Burning Rush are both powerful enough that I figured it was worth making someone take an extra seed to get them both.

7) Seed Compatibility: A lot of seeds in the current system explicitly deal Fire Blast damage, which is part of what limits the ability to create things with Firebending. Though what a firebender can do is still limited, it's now possible to use a lot more templates with Playing with Fire (Explosion, Burning Rush, Farflame, Heat Wave, Pyrotechnics, Flaming Strike (when Quickened)), Incandescence (Fire Sweep, Flamethrower, Firestorm, Farflame, Pyrotechnics, Heat Wave, Flaming Strike (when Quickened)), and Fire Whip (Flaming Strike, Pyrotechnics, Heat Wave). That greatly improves the variety in a firebender's repertoire.

8) Lingering Flames: 1d6 damage every round is big at lower levels, but not so much at higher ones, and at low levels it wears off pretty easy. 5 points = 1d6 damage from Fire Blast, modified by +50% at level 9, and +100% at level 18.

9) Farflame: I lowered bending range across the board to a standard of 60 feet; even in the finale we really just don't see a lot of difficult bending at extreme distances, while the current Fire Kicks works at nearly 300 feet. There's only one long-ranged, power-based fight in Sozin's Comet that I think this seed would fail to mimic accurately, and it wouldn't be by a very large margin. Avatar isn't a dungeon-crawling setting and additional range is really a very large advantage. Allowing this template to also move the origin point of Point Blank attacks I think adds for some interesting variety.

10) Fire Whip: In the original system, it didn't specify a limit on how large you could increase the whip, or whether it was a straight damage die increase or an actual weapon size increase. If it increased as the former, did it cap at 1d12, 1d20, or 1d100? If it increased as the latter, it built up additional damage really fast for very little DC.

11) Explosion: I added an additional usage for the sake of more seeds being combined with seeds, and allowing standing fires to bull rush seemed to create an interesting situation where you had semi-solid flames that would let no one pass through them.

12) Flaming Strike: I felt this was a more simple way to deal with the fact that firebenders often performed the somatic movements for a variety of firebending techniques while punching people in the face. I didn't make a version of the fire swords because there was already a fire whip creation thingy and it felt sort of redundant. That would probably get moved under a variety of fire whip.

The AoO application I think speaks well to the offensive philosophy of firebenders alluded to by endo - when their opponent makes a misstep, capitalize on it.

13) Burning Rush: The full-round action required by the Firebender's Leap seemed unnecessary to me as, if you jump more than your move actions left allow, you don't end your jump until next round. I also definitely recall Zuko more than once starting a fire blast in mid-air, which I think would be mechanically represented as a move action jump with a standard action blast. This is a slight power bump for Burning Rush, though.

14) Fire Sweep: Just altered to become a template for broader applicability.

15) Incandescence: Mostly just allowed the bender to heat other things.

16) Fire in the Stomach: As proper breath control is meant to allow someone to maximize their energy usage, the ability to ignore fatigue without becoming immune to it seemed the best way to represent that. The bonus to your next firebending check is a small feature so that people will be slightly more inclined to take this. (How often do fatigue and breath-holding come up in most games?)

17) Breath of the Dragon: Just some clarifying text added.

18) Firestorm: I switched the name from Fire Burst in honor of the class feature I removed. I changed the name back because I realized Burst was used as generic terminology for PBAoE attacks in the bending system. And generally, I don't really care if my names are used or not. Just altered to become a template for broader applicability, made it harder to increase the radius because of its usefulness in making an escape for a surrounded bender when added with Explosion.

19) Heat Wave: Being able to force anyone careful to move at your whim (essentially) is very powerful, which is why the original Lingering Flames was DC +15 to begin with.

20) Flamethrower: I specified a width and length, we don't really see many wide, long beams. All that comes to mind is the finale, which can be represented well with use of Farflames template. The given size isn't particularly large so the DC got dropped a lot. Its advantage is primarily that it's more precise than Firestorm or Fire Sweep.

21) Pyrotechnics: Being able to blind someone and force two different saves is really nice for a number of reasons, and my level 20 Solar Flare example is well in-line with the 8th level spell Sunburst - more precise to help allies, smaller radius. Also the fascinate is a cool utility effect in a school of bending starved for them, which is why I cribbed it from Yasho. :D

22) Cold Fire: I just chose the application's name preferentially for thematics. A critical fire blast with damage die raised one step hits pretty hard, especially in VP/WP - we don't really see the attack as being terribly accurate, either, with its only two successful scores on targets at a severe disadvantage, but it's doable. We've agreed it should be very hard to deflect, and because it basically is death for anyone hit (especially in VP/WP), I think the attack of opportunity it invokes should be a real problem. You shouldn't get hit with lightning if you're staying in people's faces.

23) Propulsion: I didn't want to make seeds actually have prerequisites, but it's really an extension of Burning Rush. So you need Burning Rush to move quickly with this seed, otherwise it's mostly useful for slowing falls. The name change was unintentional.

[yosho]

I don't want to be the guy to beat a dead horse, but I also have to think that we've come an awful long way and really have an incredible product here. I am afraid that we're tinkering with it because we don't have anything else to do with ourselves when it comes to this product. Now I'm trying to hurt anyone's feelings by saying that the new blood here should keep their mouths shut on glaring problems, but at the same time, not everyone who comes through the door should be able to suggest a drastic overhaul just because they think they could do it better.

Not trying to call anyone out, I'm just saying. Take it as it is.

-X

Hum, now I'm starting to feel a bit guilty. Seeing as I've been watching this project since its first incarnation I felt that the mechanics have been worked very precisely and that we were just adding and refining content.

But anyway, two small questions.
1. Which of the pages (the website or first page) is the one with the newest updates?
2. Has anyone been keeping track of the proposed changes?

Well must just say once again that this is one of the best d20 conversion projects that I've come across and its my favorite avatar d20 project. So I must commend all you guys who have been working on it since the beginning.

[Mephibosheth]

First, let me start by saying I appreciate your suggestions, AstralFire. You've been extremely helpful in pointing out some of the system's shortcomings and suggesting constructive and interesting changes. Even if we end up not using your new system, I have valued (and continue to value) your input.

Man, I totally sound preachy and leader-like whenever I post. I don't mean to do that. I think it's because I work in an elected official's office and spend my day writing letters that sound a lot like that. I'm really a normal guy, honest!

Now, to address your summary piece by piece, as is my wont.

1) Rise with/Child of the Sun. Environment bonus because Focused Bending is a circumstance bonus and that should really stack. Name change was just because I really liked Zuko's line from the S1 finale.

Circumstance bonuses from different sources stack, meaning that the bonus from the "Child of X" abilities stacks with the bonus from Focused Bending. I'm fine with either name, though yours is derived from the show, which makes me initially inclined to the change.

2) Fire Blast: There are two sources of damage - skill roll, and the two empowering class features, Firepower. By basing the damage primarily on skill roll (with a restriction of die per HD or level), bending blasts do not suffer quite as much from multiclassing. Currently, any class the bender enters that does not advance his bending blast damage will hurt his damage significantly (except in the case of sneak attack, which advances much faster than bending damage.) However, if you're willing to burn skill points under the prototype system, you're able to keep up your fire blast damage for a while.

This is especially true in a VP/WP system, as only the number of dice is relevant to how much damage you deal on a critical hit, not any unrolled damage like from the Firepower multipliers. Long-term class switching will still hurt your damage, though, as Firepower multipliers are necessary to keep up with the power bumps that occur as martial classes add iterative attacks. They're timed to show up around the same time most characters get iterative attack increases.

Making bending blasts a standard attack limits the amount of rolls made a round to a degree (especially when deflecting a lot); in the current system, a fire and an airbender going at each other at level 20 are throwing around about 6 d20 rolls a round each, half of those are getting negated by Deflect Attack.

In the prototype, it is expected that a bender will quicken a second blast to a move action if they want to just stand in one place and shoot for maximum damage. They lose out on a little bit less than half of their damage if they don't, which means that there is incentive to double attack without completely penalizing them for moving. As dependent as the current system is on a full attack, there's almost no point in firing a single bending blast if you had to use your move action on something that round.

I suspect that issue was noticed in the current system, given the feats Circle Walking and Mobile Mastery, but Mobile Mastery has high requirements not every bender can make, and Circle Walking can only be effectively taken by Airbenders, as they're the only ones that gain Tumble as a class skill, and benders don't have many skill points to spare. (Those feats also allow for a phenomenon, at least with firebenders that do qualify, that there are very few situations where a full attack action isn't the only good choice, basically when you need to run as a full-round. You may want to look at that, at higher levels anyone with either feat essentially gets to full-attack as a standard action; there's a reason that kind of motion in D&D tends to be hard to get access to and is typically given to melee only.)

I feel one blast every 3 seconds, with the rare one blast every 2 is a bit closer to the feel of the combat in the show, as well.

There are a number of issues here, so I'm going to go paragraph by paragraph.

One of our founding assumptions from the very beginning of the project was that benders don't multiclass very frequently. The bending disciplines are portrayed in the show as extremely rigerous, and characters who seem to possess abilities gained by multiclassing (most notably, Zuko) are noticeably less powerful than devoted benders. For this reason, I'm not to worried about firebenders losing blast damage if they multiclass. I could see perhaps a feat to facilitate it somewhat, though.

Another reason I like giving Fire Blast a fixed progression rather than basing it on the skill roll is that it provides something to fill levels. We've noticed a large number of dead levels in the bending classes, and having Fire Blast damage increase with class level helps aleviate this problem.

Your next change was to eliminate using Fire Blasts at the rate of iterative attacks. I contend (and I think the show and the peripheral literature back me in this) that firebending is extremely quick and there are multiple examples of firebenders using a flurry of quick blasts. The best example I can think of is Iroh in The Siege of the North when he takes out Zhao's firebending guards in a quick flurry of blasts. We also see Zuko and other firebenders making similar attacks on a number of occasions.

To broaden the discussion slightly, your system would necessitate an extension of this principle to the other benders, and I think the show's evidence to the contrary becomes even stronger. We see earthbenders launching multiple projectiles in quick succession frequently. The best example I can think of is Shin Fu during the closing combat of The Blind Bandit. I'm convinced that the bending arts as depicted in the show can be extremely quick and iterative.

Next, you touch on using the rules for quickened bending to fire multiple Fire Blasts. I don't think the intention was ever for these rules to apply to bending blasts, and would support a modification to make this explicit.

Finally, I share your concern about the propensity of the system to encourage full attacks at the expense of mobility. I agree that this isn't necessarily accurate to the show, but feel that this is more of a shortcoming of the d20 system than our specific adaptation, especially for d20 3.5. Additionally, we've seen in the show that benders (especially earthbenders and firebenders, who value strong stances more highly than airbenders and waterbenders) do stay in one place if they can. Finally, playtesting combats have shown that it still benefits members of all classes to remain mobile, especially since bending provokes an AoO. You're right in your assumption that Circle Walking was designed with airbenders in mind. Airbending moves are based on Ba Gua, which utilizes circle walking extensively.

3) Playing With Fire: This got greatly expanded because this seed is, in essence, any manipulation of fire that doesn't require a specific shape or needs to move very fast. You can make fire walls now with this.

I like the premise behind this change and would consider modifying Play with Fire. I don't necessarily support making fire walls with this ability, but this isn't a huge issue.

4) Base Attack Bonus: Fire benders are the most offensively oriented of the bending classes, and I felt they should be the most precise at attacking as a result. Just as Earth currently gets a bigger HD, I would probably switch Water to have all good saves and Air can keep its higher AC and Evasion.

I'm not necessarily opposed to differentiating between benders in this fashion, but given my support for bending at the rate of iterative attacks, I can't support this change.

5) Bonus Feats: A good way to encourage firebender personalization, but it wouldn't be gamebreaking if they didn't have them. I'd propose something similar for all bending classes to reflect the differing styles.

Similar suggestions have been made a number of times in the past. In most cases, they haven't met with great support for one reason or another. Unless we decide to switch over to your class structure, I wouldn't support adding bonus feats.

6) Multiple Applications of Seeds: I attempted to split or remove all 'second uses' of seeds. The only time that that wasn't successful was with Incandescence, where the two moves are very logical progressions of one another that nonetheless could not be easily summed up into one ability. Propulsion and Burning Rush are both powerful enough that I figured it was worth making someone take an extra seed to get them both.

The first version of the classes (which you can find on the website, rebalanced based on the development of version 2.0) was similar to this in that bending forms didn't have multiple applications. The multiple applications were added to version 2.0 in order to increase the bender's versitility and make the seeds worthwhile as the bender progressed.

7) Seed Compatibility: A lot of seeds in the current system explicitly deal Fire Blast damage, which is part of what limits the ability to create things with Firebending. Though what a firebender can do is still limited, it's now possible to use a lot more templates with Playing with Fire (Explosion, Burning Rush, Farflame, Heat Wave, Pyrotechnics, Flaming Strike (when Quickened)), Incandescence (Fire Sweep, Flamethrower, Firestorm, Farflame, Pyrotechnics, Heat Wave, Flaming Strike (when Quickened)), and Fire Whip (Flaming Strike, Pyrotechnics, Heat Wave). That greatly improves the variety in a firebender's repertoire.

This is a good suggestion and I think we could adopt it with some changes to the language of the seeds.

8) Lingering Flames: 1d6 damage every round is big at lower levels, but not so much at higher ones, and at low levels it wears off pretty easy. 5 points = 1d6 damage from Fire Blast, modified by +50% at level 9, and +100% at level 18.

I think your first version of this seed had pretty wide acceptance and I'm going to add it to the class when I get a chance to update.

9) Farflame: I lowered bending range across the board to a standard of 60 feet; even in the finale we really just don't see a lot of difficult bending at extreme distances, while the current Fire Kicks works at nearly 300 feet. There's only one long-ranged, power-based fight in Sozin's Comet that I think this seed would fail to mimic accurately, and it wouldn't be by a very large margin. Avatar isn't a dungeon-crawling setting and additional range is really a very large advantage. Allowing this template to also move the origin point of Point Blank attacks I think adds for some interesting variety.

I think I could support reducing the bending range, which would make our Fire Kick a more viable option and might leave room for a separate seed for increasing damage (the added damage from Fire Kick was added because people though that simply increasing the range wasn't valuable enough).

10) Fire Whip: In the original system, it didn't specify a limit on how large you could increase the whip, or whether it was a straight damage die increase or an actual weapon size increase. If it increased as the former, did it cap at 1d12, 1d20, or 1d100? If it increased as the latter, it built up additional damage really fast for very little DC.

Yeah, a cap is probably a good idea. What would you suggest?

11) Explosion: I added an additional usage for the sake of more seeds being combined with seeds, and allowing standing fires to bull rush seemed to create an interesting situation where you had semi-solid flames that would let no one pass through them.

An interesting suggestion, and Explosion could use a re-working to allow it to apply to more abilities, but we've never seen semi-solid fires in the show, so I don't think I would support allowing this template to apply to natural fire.

12) Flaming Strike: I felt this was a more simple way to deal with the fact that firebenders often performed the somatic movements for a variety of firebending techniques while punching people in the face. I didn't make a version of the fire swords because there was already a fire whip creation thingy and it felt sort of redundant. That would probably get moved under a variety of fire whip.

The AoO application I think speaks well to the offensive philosophy of firebenders alluded to by endo - when their opponent makes a misstep, capitalize on it.

We created Blades of Fire because of specific instances where firebenders either bend through swords or create small knives of flame (see the battle between Zuko and Azula in The Avatar State). However, I could see some sort of syncretism.

13) Burning Rush: The full-round action required by the Firebender's Leap seemed unnecessary to me as, if you jump more than your move actions left allow, you don't end your jump until next round. I also definitely recall Zuko more than once starting a fire blast in mid-air, which I think would be mechanically represented as a move action jump with a standard action blast. This is a slight power bump for Burning Rush, though.

I don't think I'd have a problem with reducing the time required to do a Firebender's Leap. Otherwise, the two seeds seem pretty similar and I'm fine with either one.

14) Fire Sweep: Just altered to become a template for broader applicability.

15) Incandescence: Mostly just allowed the bender to heat other things.

Both these changes seem reasonable to me.

16) Fire in the Stomach: As proper breath control is meant to allow someone to maximize their energy usage, the ability to ignore fatigue without becoming immune to it seemed the best way to represent that. The bonus to your next firebending check is a small feature so that people will be slightly more inclined to take this. (How often do fatigue and breath-holding come up in most games?)

I'm fine with these changes.

17) Breath of the Dragon: Just some clarifying text added.

18) Firestorm: I switched the name from Fire Burst in honor of the class feature I removed. Just altered to become a template for broader applicability, made it harder to increase the radius because of its usefulness in making an escape for a surrounded bender when added with Explosion. I'll probably change the name back because I realized Burst was used as generic terminology for PBAoE attacks in the bending system. And generally, I don't really care if my names are used or not.

These changes look alright too. In general, I'm in favor of broadening the applicability of firebending seeds.

19) Heat Wave: Being able to force anyone careful to move at your whim (essentially) is very powerful, which is why the original Lingering Flames was DC +15 to begin with.

I still like this seed, though probably your original version. I'm not really opposed to separating the two applications, however.

21) Pyrotechnics: Being able to blind someone and force two different saves is really nice for a number of reasons, and my level 20 Solar Flare example is well in-line with the 8th level spell Sunburst - more precise to help allies, smaller radius. Also the fascinate is a cool utility effect in a school of bending starved for them, which is why I cribbed it from Yasho. :D

I do like Will saves, and we have so few in this system. I like this seed. My only suggestion would be to include some sort of role-playing requirement pertaining to The Firebending Masters, but that's a minor issue and I'm fine with the seed without it.

22) Cold Fire: I just chose the application's name preferentially for thematics. A critical fire blast with damage die raised one step hits pretty hard, especially in VP/WP - we don't really see the attack as being terribly accurate, either, with its only two successful scores on targets at a severe disadvantage, but it's doable. We've agreed it should be very hard to deflect, and because it basically is death for anyone hit (especially in VP/WP), I think the attack of opportunity it invokes should be a real problem. You shouldn't get hit with lightning if you're staying in people's faces.

I actually kind of like how you've dealt with this seed. I think I would support this change for the current version of firebenders. What says the community?

23) Propulsion: I didn't want to make seeds actually have prerequisites, but it's really an extension of Burning Rush. So you need Burning Rush to move quickly with this seed, otherwise it's mostly useful for slowing falls. The name change was unintentional.

I'm not really sure how I feel about this seed, especially the slow speed. Whenever we see them fly, firebenders are always either hovering or going pretty fast.

Like I said, good changes, and I hope my comments aren't unreasonable. I like a lot of the changes you've made to seeds, but not necessarily the changes to the basic structure of the class.

two small questions.
1. Which of the pages (the website or first page) is the one with the newest updates?
2. Has anyone been keeping track of the proposed changes?

In general, the website is probably more accurate and up-to-date. I tend to update that before I update the thread. I'm also keeping track of proposed changes, at least in the general sense, and will probably be doing some updates soon.

Mephibosheth

[Pirate_King]

Wow. This is what happens when your bookmarks vanish at the same time the server goes down. Anyone miss me?

I like Astralfire's new seeds, but I haven't looked at all his other changes. 4 new pages is a lot to take in this morning. However his ideas are handled, I think I'm likely to agree with seraph or Meph, so I'll sacrifice whatever firebender loving opinion I might have to not have to review all that and just check the website when the changes are made. I would also like to point out that Jong Jong also flew in the finale. and that the finale was freakin' intense.

Not to derail the subject or anything, but now that I've actually read through the 4e core books, I don't think an update would be entirely out of hand. My main problem with 4e was the lack of customizability of the classes, particularly the limitations of the multi-class feat, not to mention completely doing away with the full round action and multiple attacks. However, I do think the power system really does represent multiple attacks well from the characters that should be good at it. basically changing any feat that granted some kind of combat ability to a power also simplified things. I don't like how magic is changed much, but that wouldn't matter for a bending equivalent. A 4e update might take some of the flexability of the bending system away, but by making different bending forms into powers or putting them under the skill would save a lot of it. Most of the low level seeds could be at will powers. I think it would work kind of like warlocks, everyone would get a blast, then pick another at will power depending on what kind of bender, like fire or water whip, column, or air thrust. Encounter and daily powers really take fatigue into account for the game; it makes sense that a person would have to rest between uses of his awesome powers, something that 3.x didn't, unless a DM house rules fatigue or exhaustion from fighting too much. I'll try not to push the 4e system in general too much more, since this post is becoming rather long, but I think the bending system can be greatly simplified by it without losing too much flexibility.

[Katasi]

Wow. This is what happens when your bookmarks vanish at the same time the server goes down. Anyone miss me?

I like Astralfire's new seeds, but I haven't looked at all his other changes. 4 new pages is a lot to take in this morning. However his ideas are handled, I think I'm likely to agree with seraph or Meph, so I'll sacrifice whatever firebender loving opinion I might have to not have to review all that and just check the website when the changes are made. I would also like to point out that Jong Jong also flew in the finale. and that the finale was freakin' intense.

Not to derail the subject or anything, but now that I've actually read through the 4e core books, I don't think an update would be entirely out of hand. My main problem with 4e was the lack of customizability of the classes, particularly the limitations of the multi-class feat, not to mention completely doing away with the full round action and multiple attacks. However, I do think the power system really does represent multiple attacks well from the characters that should be good at it. basically changing any feat that granted some kind of combat ability to a power also simplified things. I don't like how magic is changed much, but that wouldn't matter for a bending equivalent. A 4e update might take some of the flexability of the bending system away, but by making different bending forms into powers or putting them under the skill would save a lot of it. Most of the low level seeds could be at will powers. I think it would work kind of like warlocks, everyone would get a blast, then pick another at will power depending on what kind of bender, like fire or water whip, column, or air thrust. Encounter and daily powers really take fatigue into account for the game; it makes sense that a person would have to rest between uses of his awesome powers, something that 3.x didn't, unless a DM house rules fatigue or exhaustion from fighting too much. I'll try not to push the 4e system in general too much more, since this post is becoming rather long, but I think the bending system can be greatly simplified by it without losing too much flexibility.

Um... actually there ARE rules in 3.5 about how long a person can fight without being fatigued by it.

[AstralFire]

Well, I appreciate the thoughtfulness, a lot - I really do, I know it's not easy to deal with this guy thunderbolting in out of nowhere and going "UR DOIN IT RONG".

In a quick reply about the bending blasts, I would point out that a lot of my changes to AoEs are predicated on fire blast damage improving with the DC. The current iterative attack method would continue to leave us with AoEs that are vastly inferior and unusable against the option just multiple bending blasts, and also would require most of those templates carrying their own rules for damage increase progression. (I know you stated earlier that lack of AoE damage was okay, but I feel that there are enough instances of AoE strikes from the other benders to assume fire can do it and do it well - it just doesn't get to because that would be very lethal looking, like when Aang burned Katara's face.)

That can be fixed with multipliers to those damage sources, but the DCs would all need to be systematically re-examined again.

Earthbenders with their rubble blasts I think wouldn't necessarily be represented with numerous small attacks - http://www.d20srd.org/srd/psionic/po...ofCrystals.htm - demonstrates that large amounts of small debris can also be represented (arguably better and more quickly) with a reflex save than multiple attack rolls. As I mentioned earlier as well, a seed that allows a number of small, rapid blows would be an option as well.

Overall, I do think working off of a non-iterative attack basis is a lot easier to balance if you want variety in attacks and not just balance. As 3.x progressed, Wizards really stopped leaning on the Flurry of Blows paradigm, and all the d20 spin-offs (SW d20, d20 Modern, 4E) removed iterative attacks. It is possible to do it, I'm sure, I just currently can't think of how to.

[Pirate_King]

Um... actually there ARE rules in 3.5 about how long a person can fight without being fatigued by it.

where? I never saw, but I could be terribly ignorant. anyhow, I still think the streamlined ways of 4e can be advantageous. We can make many of the template seeds or non-combat seeds part of the skill, since there are some seeds that don't make sense for a bender not to know them.

[Eighth_Seraph]

I'm not even going to touch the 4e stuff, primarily because I can't afford the books and don't have anyone to play with now that most of my friends are in college.

Anyway, agree with Meph on all of the following:

• Accepting the changes to Play with Fire
• Not a huge fan of the proposed Fire Blast revamp. Let's keep it BAB and iterative, plz.
• I also prefer Rise with the Sun to Child of the Sun
• No bonus feats. Benders already have an edge over non-benders in this system, adding anything else would only start us on the long path of power creep.
• Keeping multiple seed applications. I designed them that way for a reason, and it seems to have worked rather well in playtesting.
• I'll...put up with the transfer of the suggested seeds as templates, for mechanical reasons. I think that they have been presented as individual abilities in the show, but I agree that it's much more mechanically sound for a firebender to do iterative Fire Sweeps.
• Far FlameFire in the Stomach, Breath of the Dragon, Burning Rush, Fire Sweep, and Incandescence all look good as proposed changes.
• The original version of Heat Wave was better, I must agree; and it should include both applications. Same thing for Lingering Flames
• I'm not a fan of the Propulsion seed. I would just take the seed as you made it and make it an application of Burning Rush, while keeping the DC you assigned it and giving speed based upon the bonus granted by the Speed Burst application of Burning Rush.

I disagree on the following points, though.

• Fire Burst should not be a template. That would mean iterative bursts, so that a firebender deals fire blast damage in a radius three or four times per turn. Far too powerful.
• Cold Fire seems pretty badly nerfed now. I don't know if a single critical strike is worth losing a full attack, unless we officially use the VP/WP system. If we do use the VP/WP system, then it's definitely worth it. The -10 to attack is crippling, though. That makes the attack worthless against any worthwhile opponent that isn't flat-footed.
  
  Further, I'm not sure how I feel about removing the full-round of preparation before executing a lightning attack. Azula and Ozai did execute some quick lightning attacks in the finale, but given how Zuko had enough time to react to Azula's attack to get in its way during their duel, I still say it requires a full-round of preparation, then another action to execute.
• I really like the idea behind Flaming Strike; but it's brokenly powerful as written. Replace "Any firebending form you know" with "Fire Blast" and you've got a good form. Simply allow for templates to be added to the blast and you've got a solid seed. I also support combining Fire Whip and Blades of Fire into a single seed.

Now, let me get Pyrotechnics straight. The fascination ability only works outside of combat, in a non-hostile environment, right? Because a mind-affecting ability is not something I would grant firebenders, no matter how Will-saved starved our setting is. I could see some Dai Li-esque firebending organization using this to great effect.

Also, the language you used in your revamps, AstralFire, tends to be kind of...blocky, I guess. It's all mechanics and no explanation of what it actually looks like. Which is fine, for now. If we accept the changes we'll sand some of the corners down a bit and give the seeds some fluffy padding.

I'm sure there's more stuff I was planning to write. I'll write it when I remember.

[AstralFire]

Wow, that solution was staring me in the face. I completely missed that. If the AoE attacks are generally built into the iterative system, then their lower damage isn't as much of an issue. That would require some custom tailoring, but that's a lot more doable than how I thought it would have to be dealt with. Iesu Christos Domine, sometimes I can be dumb as hell.

Regarding Base Attack Bonus, I would personally support ditching Firestorm entirely and letting Firebenders have a BAB as a Fighter. I should note that that is a very 'off-the-cuff' statement as I just was under a hot sun for an hour and I'm a humanities major so I really don't want to do math right now.

# Fire Burst should not be a template. That would mean iterative bursts, so that a firebender deals fire blast damage in a radius three or four times per turn. Far too powerful.

# Cold Fire seems pretty badly nerfed now. I don't know if a single critical strike is worth losing a full attack, unless we officially use the VP/WP system. If we do use the VP/WP system, then it's definitely worth it. The -10 to attack is crippling, though. That makes the attack worthless against any worthwhile opponent that isn't flat-footed.

My suggestions were made in mind with the new paradigm I'd suggested. Cold Fire working around the original version would probably be changed to look more like the earlier version - leveld8 as the base damage. I really don't think -10 attack for a single blow is that crippling, though, especially at the higher proposed BAB. And it's a save-or-suck.

I really like the idea behind Flaming Strike; but it's brokenly powerful as written. Replace "Any firebending form you know" with "Fire Blast" and you've got a good form. Simply allow for templates to be added to the blast and you've got a solid seed. I also support combining Fire Whip and Blades of Fire into a single seed.

Is it? The current base seeds are Manipulate/Play with Fire (requires a +10 right there to quicken), Fire Whip (you wouldn't be able to use it in that round), Incandescence (Takes a few rounds to work), Cold Fire (Can't be quickened, so is ineligible.)

Also, the language you used in your revamps, AstralFire, tends to be kind of...blocky, I guess. It's all mechanics and no explanation of what it actually looks like. Which is fine, for now. If we accept the changes we'll sand some of the corners down a bit and give the seeds some fluffy padding.

I've always been a strong proponent of the idea that crunch and fluff should be kept as separate layers. I like the idea of suggesting that Fire Sweep is typically a kick, for example, without actually requiring it to be. And yeah, once everything's hammered out, it's Fluffer Time. (...That sounded wrong.)

Keeping multiple seed applications. I designed them that way for a reason, and it seems to have worked rather well in playtesting.

We require more vespene seeds, then. Part of the splitting was to actually give firebending seeds a scarcity, there's only 16 ATM as I recall - bringing back Fire Kicks without folding any back in would be 17, only 6 higher than the total amount of seeds they can take. I would also argue that the reformatted seeds are each inherently more valuable as they can be combined in new ways.

An interesting suggestion, and Explosion could use a re-working to allow it to apply to more abilities, but we've never seen semi-solid fires in the show, so I don't think I would support allowing this template to apply to natural fire.

Hmm. However, a fire wall should still be pretty hard to see through clearly. What about making the concealment effect a basic part of shooting through fire? It affects the firebender himself if he tries to shoot through it, so it can't be used as a blanket protection.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Is it? The current base seeds are Manipulate/Play with Fire (requires a +10 right there to quicken), Fire Whip (you wouldn't be able to use it in that round), Incandescence (Takes a few rounds to work), Cold Fire (Can't be quickened, so is ineligible.)

The write-up as you have it says "Any firebending form. That is very, very powerful if, for example, the player has access to our Forms Compendium.

We require more vespene seeds, then. Part of the splitting was to actually give firebending seeds a scarcity, there's only 16 ATM as I recall - bringing back Fire Kicks without folding any back in would be 17, only 6 higher than the total amount of seeds they can take. I would also argue that the reformatted seeds are each inherently more valuable as they can be combined in new ways.

Hrm. You, my friend, need to work on your tact. I'll have to disagree with you on the "inherently more valuable" bit, and what does "vespene" mean? It's not in the dictionary. I would also like to point out that we would neve "bring back" Fire Kick, because it has not been eliminated. We might take some of the new stuff and accept many of the changes you are proposing, but we do not start over with your class as the starting point. I'm pretty sure that that's what you meant, but again, try working on your tact.

[Katasi]

where? I never saw, but I could be terribly ignorant. anyhow, I still think the streamlined ways of 4e can be advantageous. We can make many of the template seeds or non-combat seeds part of the skill, since there are some seeds that don't make sense for a bender not to know them.

It's not to terribly limiting, but it's actually under movement rules- actions in combat count as hustling, and a character can only hustle for a total of 1 hour per day. And they can't hustle at all if they are trying to heal or are doing something that requires only light activity.

[AstralFire]

The write-up as you have it says "Any firebending form. That is very, very powerful if, for example, the player has access to our Forms Compendium.

This template can be applied to any form which requires a Standard Action or less to perform.

That's in the write-up.

Hrm. You, my friend, need to work on your tact. I'll have to disagree with you on the "inherently more valuable" bit

...I'm not saying my versions of the seeds are inherently better designed than yours. I am saying that they're, on the whole, each more powerful. As a designer I bias towards power creep in the name of coolness, and recombining the seeds in the states they are currently may result in a lower-level firebender becoming excessively powerful. The original versions of many seeds were limited in their functionality. The improved interconnectivity means that it's not quite as important that they have multiple uses, I would say.

, and what does "vespene" mean? It's not in the dictionary.

Starcraft reference. "WE REQUIRE MORE VESPENE GAS" is one of the more memorable lines.

I would also like to point out that we would neve "bring back" Fire Kick, because it has not been eliminated. We might take some of the new stuff and accept many of the changes you are proposing, but we do not start over with your class as the starting point. I'm pretty sure that that's what you meant, but again, try working on your tact.

Let me get something straight - this isn't my class. This is the same class (undeniably the same class) that you guys have been working on through this entire thread. I am far too much of a lazy ass to create my own ruleset from scratch, it's a lot of work. I am quite happy to try and symbiotically parasite, though. It was my variant on it to get some ideas flowing, and it seems to have worked. I haven't had time to math it out, but you mentioning the idea of iterative Fire Sweeps because I had altered it in the first place to be a template seems to give an easy solution to the nagging problem I brought up early on in my posts of low AoE damage, without significantly overhauling the class. That's teamwork and discussion at its best. :)

When I say "bring back Fire Kicks", I'm referring specifically to the shakedown concept. At no point have I assumed or presumed control of this project, and I made my own thread titled 'Random Avatar Scrap' purely so my suggestions wouldn't clog up an actually valuable thread more than necessary. I've returned to this thread to comment on it since it seems everyone else prefers sticking to one thread, so I am sorry for making people jump through hyperlink hell.

I've been pretty self-deprecating through this entire phase and I'm not sure how much more tactfully one can introduce a radical concept that exists purely for the sake of idea generation. That said, I sincerely apologize for coming off in a rude manner as I don't mean to do that.

[Eighth_Seraph]

*sigh* I know, I know. I'm just irritable about the prospect still being nowhere close to done after at least a full year of working on the version 2.0 benders. Your suggested revamp set me off because it requires turning back the clock in the name of completion and excellence. And I just can't resist the lure of completion and excellence in a project like this. Sorry for taking it out on you.

Let's just continue refining the class until it's all that it can be. I'll suck up my borderline desperation and release it in an explosion of jubilee when we can put an official DONE stamp on this setting.

[yosho]

Well more stuff, more opinions to give.

1. Full BAB firebenders. I say a big no. This change would undermine all the warrior classes in the setting and also makes it a very nice multiclass option.

2. Fascination only lasts as long as the target does not seem threatened. Thus if you fascinated an enemy and then drew your sword the fascination would break.

3. Cold fire- A -10 penalty to attack is a very large penalty and would make using it near obsolete. Also if possible could all material be constructed with both the vp and hp systems in mind?

4. About cold fire posibly taking one round to charge and then one to use. What we saw in the final was just a readied action. Zuko readied an action to act when Azula used lightning. At least that's how I saw all that. Note: Please remember that readied actions are used a lot in combat even though they may not mechanically be the best choice.

[AstralFire]

Well more stuff, more opinions to give.

1. Full BAB firebenders. I say a big no. This change would undermine all the warrior classes in the setting and also makes it a very nice multiclass option.

BAB does not a melee specialist make. The Knight and Samurai classes are generally regarded as two of the most mechanically embarrassing things to come out of 3.5, and the Psychic Warrior is frequently used in King of Smack builds. Making it a nice multiclass option is a bit intentional on my part. Zuko is one of the most effective benders throughout Avatar and he is definitely a multiclass character.

3. Cold fire- A -10 penalty to attack is a very large penalty and would make using it near obsolete. Also if possible could all material be constructed with both the vp and hp systems in mind?

The -10 penalty I suggest always comes paired with a BAB increase, making it a -5 penalty compared to what we currently have. That's not so bad, and a very good Airbender at level 20 has an AC of 31. A good firebender can have a to-hit of +26 if they take Zen Archery. -10. That's hitting even an airbender from 15 to 20, and no one else (that does remind me, however, that none of the other benders get really adequate protection - the rest of them have ACs in the low 20s). Also bear in mind that both of the successful lightning strikes in the series -are- against flat-footed targets. And I've been trying to make material with VP and HP both in mind.

[Eighth_Seraph]

The Full BAB thing was a mid-length debate a while back, and we eventually decided to keep all benders at 3/4 BAB. If you look at any of the firebenders in the show, they don't seem significantly more accurate than the water or earthbenders. There were more arguments, but I'm not going to dig back through the threads and find them.

[Mephibosheth]

Just so I'm clear, AstralFire, your main argument seems to be that AoE options for firebenders are weak in comparison to simply shooting single Fire Blasts at multiple foes. Your solution to this problem is to reduce a firebender to a single blast per round (possibly two, with quickened bending) and base blast damage off of a skill check rather than a fixed, level-based progression.

What if we compromise. None of the AoE seeds is a template in the original version. What if we simply gave them their own skill-based damage progression and adapted some of the template seeds to allow more variation? This way, we boost the power of AoE seeds a bit while still maintaining the iterative and level-based Fire Blasts. What do people say about this compromise?

Mephibosheth

[Eighth_Seraph]

Hrm. Seems fine by me. So the majority of seeds would 1d6 damage per 5 points of the Firebending check? Or something?

Still, I kind of like the idea of Fire Sweep as a template.

[Mephibosheth]

I could see that. I'm fairly sure we've seen Azula use a Fire Sweep-like ability in rapid succession. In that case, we'd probably want to leave it the same and disallow Firestorm while using it, similar to Fire Kick.