[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[AstralFire]

That sounds about right, basically since Firebenders don't have many out-of-combat options, I want them to have lots of in-combat options. I just drew up another rendition prototype based on the iterative attack model, something intermediate between the original and the last version. It's based on Seraph's ideas, I'll give yours a think-over when I get back.

Notes:

1) Drops Flaming Strike, as I've reintegrated the Firebender's ability to fire blast on any attack of his choosing (and allowed him to AoO with them). It would be a good seed for the benders that do not enjoy that luxury, however.
2) Brings back iterative blasts, drops BAB back down.
3) Fire Kicks is still in limbo as far as my suggestions go. I think suggesting Firestorms use kicks might be the best idea, as I can't find much else special about them (since Firebenders in this version don't need to worry about having their hands holding a weapon. I kinda feel like you might want to generally drop that hands full point and just focus on ACP, I think Aang uses his kicks a lot to do stuff.)
4) I am currently brain-cramping. @_@ Haven't done any detailed number crunching on this set, but as it's very similar to the original, I feel semi-comfortable eyeballing it. I'll do math after I get some OJ.
5) Removed resistances in favor of an Endurance feat. That's actually a power decrease, but actual resistance to fire doesn't seem very accurate. I feel that since Firebenders do not get a movement mode by default, however, there is an argument to be made that they deserve a few bonus feats, maybe 3.
6) I think Fire Sweep should be usable with Firestorm, otherwise the firebender is still badly behind on AoE damage. I did adjust the damage done by Fire Sweep, however, check it out.
7) Fire Whip is now Burning Edge, encompasses sword and whip
8) Template DCs generally got raised across the board based on eyeballing
9) Blue Fire is in this version (under another name), Flight's back under Burning Rush
10) If we can't come up with more seeds for fire that work, maybe we should consider giving fire a slower seed progression
11) What do you guys think about giving all benders a higher AC? Air Benders would still get a Wis bonus to put them higher. In the space of time that someone's attack bonus increases to around +20 on an initial attack, a Firebender is easily running around with only 21 AC. A meleer that chooses not to power attack is getting a +30 to hit pretty easy. That means an automatic hit on our aforementioned firebender with their first three attacks (excepting a natural 1) and the last is much more likely to hit than not. (Which gives a lot of room for power attack.) Attack does outstrip AC in the base rules as well... but not by that much for classes that are intended to frontline.

Benders aren't glass cannons right now, they're more of a a cracked wine glass. Deadly, but beyond frail. Deflection or not, we know the characters are more evasive than that. The class defense bonus does not improve as much as Armor does, and that's because it has neither a max dex and it is useful against touch... but there's very little that's touch in this setting, so that isn't actually that helpful. No classes are running around with +½ BAB progression and no Str or Dex.

The lack of magical equipment means that the need to ramp up AC isn't as bad - a monk's AC could actually tank in this setting - but there's still equipment that improves to-hit that the benders' enemies can wear (none that a bender could - they need to get a bonus to attack somehow), and attack bonus progresses much faster than the defense bonus, while a bender gains absolutely no benefit to his armor class from anything except a shield.
12) Deflect not done with a bending seed, there's just not enough (at least for firebenders) that really affects deflection. Not sure if that holds true for other benders.
13) Heat Wave gets a boost in power to compensate for all the 5-foot actions this system gives PCs.
14) Incandescence now scales with Fire Blast damage, but its basic use no longer deals damage to objects that aren't low melting point or easily flammable.

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Class Abilities

Weapon and Armor Proficiency - A firebender is proficient with all simple weapons, short swords, longswords, glaives and padded, leather, and studded leather armor.

Rise with the Sun - Firebenders draw much of their power from the sun, the ultimate source of fire. During the day, firebenders gain a +2 circumstance bonus on Firebending checks due to the influence of the sun. Additionally, during the passage of a comet near the planet, Firebenders gain an additional +20 circumstance bonus to Firebending checks. However, the close link between the sun and firebending has its drawbacks. During a solar eclipse, firebenders are unable to use any firebending abilities.

Firestorm - Of all the bending disciplines, firebending is the most offensive, truly embodying the belief that the best defense is a good offense. Beginning at 1st level, whenever a firebender spends a full round attacking, he may make an extra attack at his highest base attack bonus. The extra attack may not be used in a Deflect Attack attempt, and the firebender must make at least two Fire Blasts in a turn in order to use this ability. When performing a Firestorm, the firebender takes a -2 penalty to all attacks made that round.

This penalty applies for 1 round, so it also affects attacks of opportunity the firebender might make before his next action. When a firebender reaches 5th level, the penalty lessens to -1, and at 9th level it disappears. When a firebender reaches 11th level, his Firestorm ability improves to a Greater Firestorm. He now gets an extra attack at his best and second-best base attack bonus. Bonus attacks from Firestorm are typically kicks, as a skilled firebender can make the most of using his upper and lower body at the same time.

Fire Blast
Base DC: 5
The first ability a firebender learns is Fire Blast. The firebender generates fire using the heat inside his body and propels it at great speeds toward his foe using a quick jab with his fist. A basic blast deals 1d6 fire damage (half to non-flammable objects), and is a ranged attack with a reach of 60 feet. A firebender can use a number of blasts in one round equal to the number of iterative attacks he can make (as determined by his BAB). In Wound Point systems, on a critical hit it deals 1 damage per dice plus Wisdom modifier. Unlike most benders, a firebender may substitute a Fire Blast for any melee attack he makes, and bending a Fire Blast does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

As the firebender increases in level, so too does the damage he can deal via Fire Blast.

Other Class Adaptation

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The other benders would not gain their wisdom as a bonus to damage on wound points (though they may get some other modifier for VP damage). I recommend melee damage gets a similar system of 1 damage per 2 dice (round up), plus Strength modifier as appropriate for handedness.

Manipulate Fire
Base DC: Varies, see table.
A firebender learns to finely manipulate fire. As a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity, he can create or control a fire according to the table below. He gains the ability to draw fire from any source (including the Firebender’s own body heat) within 60 feet, alter its basic shape, move it around at a rate of 10 feet/move action, and hold it in his hands. Firebenders can warm their tea, create balls of fire to act as torches, or start campfires using this ability. Fire moved using this form deals damage per round depending on its size:

{table=head]Fire Size|Example|Damage|Animated Height or Length|DC
Fine | Tindertwig | 1 | < 5 ft. | 0
Diminutive | Torch | 1d3 | < 5 ft. | 5
Tiny | Small Campfire | 1d6 | 5 ft. | 10
Small | Large Campfire | 2d6 | 10 ft. | 15
Medium | Forge | 3d6 | 15 ft. | 25
Large | Bonfire | 4d6 | 20 ft. | 35
Huge | Burning Shack | 5d6 | 30 ft. | 45
Gargantuan | Burning Tavern | 6d6 | 40 ft. | 55
Colossal | Burning Inn | 7d6 | 55 ft. | 65
Colossal+ | Burning Village | 8d6 | 70 ft. | 80[/table]

Fire of Small size or larger grants concealment on ranged attacks made through it, must be created in its own space, and any creature occupying that space gets a Reflex save to avoid the damage and move into an adjacent space. The bender cannot create a fire where one already exists.

As a move action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the firebender may increase or decrease the size of the fire by one step, up to that of the largest his bending check allows. However, one round after the firebender ceases to focus on the flames, they begin returning to their natural state as the environment dictates. If the fire is paired with the Explosion template, it gains its size modifier as a bonus to the bull rush (+4 for every size category larger than Medium).

Attempting to quench or control a flame on a highly flammable or volatile substance such as firework powder adds up to a +30 to the effective difficulty class, while trying to expand or maintain a flame under heavy precipitation also adds up to +30 on the Difficulty Class. Expanding a flame on highly flammable substances or quenching one that is being doused gives you up to a +15 circumstance bonus to your bending check.

If you focus on a creature caught on fire, the normal DC 15 Reflex Saving Throw is replaced by a standard bending saving throw (10+½Class Level+Wis) and you may increase the damage as you wish.

For every 5 points the firebender increases the Base DC, the speed of the animated fire improves by 5 feet.

Improved Unarmed Strike - A firebender gains Improved Unarmed Strike as a bonus feat at second level.

Deflect Attack - Early in their training, firebenders learn to block or deflect attacks directed at them and their companions. As an immediate action, the firebender may make an opposed attack roll to deflect a single ranged attack that would otherwise strike him or an ally within 30 feet. The firebender may choose to deflect an attack after they have found out the result of the attack roll. Because of fire's insubstantial nature and offensive outlook, firebenders take a -4 penalty on this opposed attack roll.

Additionally, a firebender has the option of reserving iterative attacks in order to gain more Deflect Attack attempts. Whenever he makes a full-round attack, a firebender may choose to forego any number of his iterative attacks, gaining a number of additional Deflect Attack attempts equal to the number of attacks the firebender reserved. The firebender's number of Deflect attempts is limited solely by his extra attacks granted by Base Attack Bonus. Additional attacks, such as those rewarded by Firestorm, Flurry of Blows, or Haste cannot be used to deflect attacks. Deflect Attack attempts past the first do not require further immediate actions, and can be used any time during the round, even when it is not the firebender's turn. All Deflect Attack rolls are subject to the same bonuses and penalties as a standard ranged attack roll, including the usual penalty to iterative attacks.

This ability cannot be used when the firebender is caught flat-footed.

Firebending Seeds

Burning Edge
Base DC: 10

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• Applications: A firebender may, as a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, form a long, narrow tongue of fire. This weapon has all the statistics of a shortsword with the exception that it deals 1d6 fire damage. Additionally, a firebender may treat it as a normal shortsword for purposes of weapon-based feats, although they may not trip or disarm (or be disarmed) with this weapon as it is made of fire and thus insubstantial. Firebenders are considered proficient with these weapons, even if they are not proficient with normal shortswords. The weapon only lasts for one round, although the firebender can choose to maintain it every round afterwards at the original DC as a swift action. If the weapon ever leaves the firebender's hand, it immediately dissipates.

For every 10 points the firebender increases the Base DC, the sword increases damage as though it is one size category larger. This can be done indefinitely.

By increasing the Base DC by 5, he may opt to either increase the weapon's reach by 5 ft or, instead, to create and maintain a second, identical weapon in his other hand. The firebender may not simultaneously gain the benefit of both characteristics.

Burning Rush
Base DC: Varies

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The speed and tenacity of the element of a true firebender are seldom seen, simply because such power is the last thing most opponents see.
• Speed (Base DC 10): By expelling flames from the soles of his feet, a firebender thrusts himself forward recklessly. The bender increases his base land speed by 5 feet and Jump skill check by +5 (these are circumstance bonuses). This does not give the bender any form of movement that he does not already possess. Initiating this form is a swift action that provokes no attacks of opportunity and a free action to maintain; however, the bender can only maintain it for a number of rounds equal to his Wisdom modifier, minimum one.

For every 5 points that the firebender exceeds the Base DC (after all template and quickening modifiers), he gains an additional +5 circumstance bonus to his speed and Jump check.

• Flight (Base DC 45): The firebender causes intense flames to burst from his feet, propelling him through the air. Using this seed, a firebender gains a fly speed of 50 ft with clumsy maneuverability. This form is initiated as a move action and maintained as a swift action, for a maximum number of rounds equal to the firebender’s Wisdom modifier.

For every 5 points that the firebender increases the Base DC (after all template and quickening modifiers), he gains an additional +5 circumstance bonus to his speed.

For every 5 points that the firebender increases the Base DC (after all template and quickening modifiers), the firebender can increase his maneuverability by one step. (Clumsy -> Poor -> Average -> Good -> Perfect)

Fire Sweep (Template)
Base DC: +10

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The firebender uses aggressive spinning motions to create a cone of energy.
• Applications: The bender turns the attack into a 15-ft cone, affecting all creatures and objects therein. Due to the wide, unfocused nature of these attacks, a Fire Sweep deals 1 less damage per die. Creatures and attended objects within this area take half damage on a successful Reflex save. This template can be applied to any form which targets an object or creature besides the bender, but not to any form which already targets an area.

Incandescence
Base DC: Varies

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What's your boiling point?
• Heat Substance (Base DC 10): As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, the firebender can heat an object within sixty feet. On the first round this form is used, the object becomes warm and uncomfortable to touch but deals no damage. During the second round, intense heat causes damage equal to half the firebender's Fire Blast damage. In subsequent rounds, the metal is searing hot, dealing damage equal to the firebender's Fire Blast. This damage does not affect the object itself unless it is particularly flammable or easy to melt. Flammable substances do not light until they have lost all HP.

Attended objects get a Reflex save to avoid damage; if they make their Reflex Save they take no damage and the firebender's next use of the ability has to start over from scratch.

• Melt Substance (Base DC 35): Often used by canny Fire Nation soldiers in the mountains to discourage enemy forces, a firebender can heat up stone and other materials to the point of melting into liquid lava. A firebender can affect one 5-foot cube of non-flammable material as the Heat Substance use of this form, above. Once the cube has taken 20 damage from the use of this form, it begins to melt, dealing damage as lava or boiling water as appropriate.

Attended objects cannot be affected by this use of the form.

For every 5 points that the firebender exceeds the Base DC (after all template and quickening modifiers), a firebender can affect one additional 5-foot cube.

Lingering Flames (Template)
Base DC: +15

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Though a fast defeat is the usual way of firebending, sometimes lingering damage can get the job done more efficiently.
• Applications: If a firebender successfully affects a target with a firebending attack (either by a successful attack roll or a failed save), the target catches on fire.

Farflame (Template)
Base DC: +15

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By using quick and powerful motions to propel his firebending, a firebender can greatly increase the range and power of his abilities.
• Applications: Applying this template to a firebending form increases the firebender's effective range for the purpose of that form by 30 feet. If the form ordinarily does not have a range but is centered on the bender instead, he may choose a square up to 30 feet away as the origin point of the form.

For every 10 points the firebender increases the Base DC, he increases the range by another increment.

Explosion (Template)
Base DC: +15

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Rather than simply burning her opponents to a crisp, firebenders often seek to earn a strategic advantage in positioning.
• Applications: Through this template, a firebender may initiate a bull rush through his flame attacks, adding his Wisdom modifier as a bonus to his Strength roll. The bender is not limited by their movement speed, nor do they fall prone if they fail to beat the opponent's check result. If the blast moves the opponent back more than ten feet, the opponent must make a Reflex save or be knocked prone. These effects only apply to moving flames, such as a Fire Blast, or an animated fire.

Additionally, by turning his fire into a forceful explosion, a firebender can deal full damage to even non-flammable objects when firebending, and deals double damage to flammable objects. This template can be applied to any form which targets an object or creature besides the bender.

For every 5 points that the firebender exceeds the Base DC (after all template and quickening modifiers), he gains an additional +2 bonus to his Bull Rush check.

Fire in the Stomach
Base DC: 15

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Firebending is all about breath control; applying this properly allows a firebender incredible resilience to harsh outer environments, and allows him to manage his energy in amazing ways.
• Applications: As a full-round action that doesn't provoke attacks of opportunity, a firebender can take a deep breath and hold it for a number of rounds equal to 5 times his Constitution score. While holding his breath this way, a firebender maintains his body temperature at normal levels and is immune to nonlethal damage by exposure to intemperate environments. The firebender may choose to end this form early; if so, he gains his twice his Constitution modifier as a bonus to his next firebending check made within the same round. If the firebender was fatigued, this form allows him to ignore its penalties; however, if he is made fatigued again before getting an hour of rest, he instead becomes exhausted. After letting out his breath, a firebender cannot use this form for at least five minutes.

For every point by which the Firebending check exceeds the DC, the firebender holds his breath one additional round.

For every 10 points the firebender increases the Base DC, he may use this form again one minute sooner.

Breath of the Dragon (Template)
Base DC: +20

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Firebending is all about breath control, and a clever bender knows that every part of his body is a weapon. Put two and two together, and...
• Applications: A firebender can do any form without using somatic components and without provoking attacks of opportunity, as long as the bender’s mouth or nose is free and not gagged or otherwise hindered from opening. The form is performed as a stream of fire from the bender’s mouth, a burst of steam from the bender's nose, or any other appropriate description. This template can be applied to any form which targets an object or creature besides the bender and does not already have a template specifying a different body part.

Fire Burst (Template)
Base DC: +20

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With a flash of light and a whirl of fire, a firebender can ignite everything around him in a blazing display.
• Applications: As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, a firebender creates a whirlwind of fire, extending in a 5-foot radius around him. (Fire Burst cannot be used as part of a full attack or attack action, even if the base form could.) All creatures and objects in the area are affected by the base form. Creatures and attended objects within the area take half damage on a successful Reflex save. This template can be applied to any form which targets an object or creature besides the bender, but not to any form which already targets an area.

For every 5 points the firebender increases the Base DC, the radius of the attack increases by 5 feet.

Flamethrower (Template)
Base DC: +25

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Truly, the paragon of the stereotypical firebender, this seed channels the internal heat of a bender through the palm of his hands to create a huge outpouring of flames.
• Applications: As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, a firebender affects all creatures or objects in a 5-foot-wide, 60-foot-long line with the base form. (Flamethrower cannot be used as part of a full attack or attack action, even if the base form could.) Due to the intense nature of these attacks, a Flamethrower deals twice as much damage as the base form (+100%). Creatures and attended objects caught within the line take half damage on a successful Reflex save. This template can be applied to any form which targets an object or creature besides the bender, but not to any form which already targets an area.

Heat Wave (Template)
Base DC: +25

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Even the most agile of opponents gets worn down under a firebender's assault if they don't know when to move, as the air itself begins to heat up.
• Applications: For the next round, anyone who ends their turn in a square that you targeted with Heat Wave must make a Fortitude save or become fatigued for the duration of the encounter. (It will not make them exhausted, however.) If applied to a standing fire or a fire burning on a creature, Heat Wave afflicts anyone damaged by the fire who fails their Fortitude save that round.

Focus Fire (Template)
Base DC: +35

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The Firebender has mastered exceptionally intense flames. (At DM's option, they may be specially colored.)
• Applications: Damage dice for firebending forms using this seed increase by one step (for example, from d6 to d8, or d4 to d6).

Pyrotechnics (Template)
Base DC: +35

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By learning to change the color and brightness of his flame, the firebender can awe and blind her opponents.
• Applications: Your flames dance in bright dazzling colors. Anyone targeted by a flame with this form is dazzled for the rest of the encounter, and must make a Fortitude Save or become blinded for 1d4 rounds.

Anyone who can see a flame affected by this form must make a Will save or become fascinated with it. Each creature to be fascinated must be within 30 feet. The distraction of a nearby combat or other dangers prevents the ability from working. Any obvious threat, such as someone drawing a weapon, bending offensively, or aiming a ranged weapon at the target, automatically breaks the effect. Fascinate is a mind-affecting ability.

Cold Fire
Base DC: 50

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As all masters of the bending disciplines must understand, all things are made up of the four elements, and the power of the mighty lightning bolt can be harnessed by a firebender with sufficient inner balance.
• Application: Creating cold fire involves separating the positive and negative energies of the element of fire, releasing a huge amount of power as they join suddenly together again. As a full-round action that provokes attacks of opportunity, you make a ranged attack against the target, at a -5 penalty. This attack deals 1d8 electrical damage per character level, and any bender attempting to deflect Cold Fire takes their usual penalties and another -15 due to the incredible speed and focus of cold fire. If the attack hits, it is automatically considered a critical strike, and the victim must also make a Fortitude Save or become paralyzed for one round. This form cannot be quickened, and the attack is lost if you are struck while bending it, as an exception to the usual rule.

Note
All firebending abilities set fire to combustibles and damage objects they affect, but usually not creatures. Natural fire deals 1d6 points of fire damage per round. A creature who catches on fire can make a DC 15 Reflex save each round to extinguish the fire. Being lit on fire is distracting for difficult tasks like bending; when appropriate, a target caught on fire must make a Concentration check equal to the Reflex DC (usually 15) to extinguish the flame, or she fails to bend or cast defensively. Failure means that you still successfully complete the action, but provoke an attack of opportunity for doing so. Dousing the fire with water or smothering it automatically extinguishes the fire.

How much fire fire firebender fire if firebender fire fire?

[Pirate_King]

Zuko is one of the most effective benders throughout Avatar and he is definitely a multiclass character.

actually, in comparison to the other bending characters, he's one of the least effective benders, and he makes up for this with his non-bending martial capabilities. The only bender I'd consider less capable than Zuko would be Zhao, and he died a long time ago.

[AstralFire]

actually, in comparison to the other bending characters, he's one of the least effective benders, and he makes up for this with his non-bending martial capabilities. The only bender I'd consider less capable than Zuko would be Zhao, and he died a long time ago.

I meant that Zuko's a bender that is effective rather than that he is particularly effective at bending, sorry. Inability to increase his Fire Blast damage really harms the effectivity thing, losing out on higher seeds is painful enough.

[AstralFire]

Example rounds at various levels. This will use the 16 Wis benchmark rolls +8. (+2 Sun, +2 Masterwork Bending Item, +4 Focused Bending), and in the case of template stacking, will assume Template Mastery on all seeds to demonstrate the maximum potential of a firebender. The firebender is assumed to have 18 dexterity.

Listed for comparison is an average barbarian of equal level. Cohen the Barbarian is assumed to have a Masterwork weapon of appropriate +Weapon/Damage bonus and 18 Str.

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Level 5:
Average DC: 34
Azulie the Firebender:

• Lingering Explosive Firestorm: 4d6 damage, sends targets flying backwards, they catch on fire. (Avg 14)
• Sweeping Far Firestorm: 4d6-4 damage, hits a 15-ft. cone of targets 30 feet away. (Avg 10)
• Explosive Incandescent Burst: All objects within 5-ft. of the firebender begin getting hot (attended objects get a reflex save.) The incredible ambient heat generated by the firebender causes rapid air expansion. Every subsequent round, they begin taking (and dealing damage), and are forced backwards.
• Explosive Flamethrower Blast: 2d6x2 damage in a line, bull rushes targets.

Cohen the Barbarian, PA -2, Weapon of Renown: 2d6+16 = 22 damage

Level 10:
Average DC: 40
Azulie the Firebender:

• Blue Firestorm: 9d8 damage (Avg 40.5)
• Burning Line: Increase speed by 15 ft, last 3 squares moved through for Wis mod rounds burn for 3d6 damage.
• 2xHeat Wall: 6 squares deal 2d6 damage, fatigue passers-through
• Lingering Heat Wavestorm: 9d6 damage (Avg 31.5), targets who catch on fire are fatigued.
• Dragon's Rage: 3d6x2 damage line as no somatic components.

Cohen the Barbarian, Power Attacking -4, Weapon of Fame: 4d6+46 = 60 damage

Level 15:
Average DC: 45

• Heat Burst: 10-ft. radius circle deals 4d6 damage, fatigues anyone who remains there.
• Greater Blue Firestorm: 20d8 damage (Avg 90)
• Flamethrower and Fire Blast: 4d6x2 damage line, 4d6 targeted attack.

Cohen the Barbarian, Power Attacking -8, Weapon of Glory: 6d6+90 = 111 damage

Level 20:
Average DC: 51

• Exploding Heat Burst: 5-ft. radius circle deals 6d6 damage, bull rushes occupants, fatigues anyone who remains there.
• Greater Blue Firestorm: 30d8 damage (Avg 135)
• 2xFlamethrower (may require slight overbending): 12d6x2 damage in line (Avg 84)
• Solar Flare: 12d6 damage in line, dazzles, chance to blind targets.
• Incandescent Flamethrower: Deals 6d6x2 damage on the second round to stone, makes precise squares of lava in 2 rounds usually.

Cohen the Barbarian, Power Attacking -10, Weapon of Legend: 8d6+140 = 154 damage

^ This list is for comparative balance purposes, hence why in this thread and not the form compendium.

[Pirate_King]

it should probably be noted that cohen needs his weapon to do that damage, whereas the firebender needs to be immobilized to be disarmed.

[AstralFire]

it should probably be noted that cohen needs his weapon to do that damage, whereas the firebender needs to be immobilized to be disarmed.

Eh, I don't think that's really a big issue. By default the class favors ranged fighting, and good use of cover and corners can make it harder for a firebender to fight well. A Barbarian also takes damage a lot better. Disarming is one of the harder things to do in a fight under the d20 system. A Barb will be doing better straight up damage most of the time when he can, but a firebender has more versatility and isn't shy on the damage themselves.

Amusingly, after all of that mess, assuming the community approves of my changes - we're left with a firebender with actually a slightly lower straight up damage capability than before, but I feel one that's more versatile and has a more natural damage increase curve than before. Firebenders also probably do area damage the best now (need to double check). The insane airbender damage needs to be reined in, but it seems to only be one ability.

EDIT: Wait, I forgot Rapid Shot. With that included, the new firebender can get up to 162 avg damage going guns blazing.

Amazing how much the suggestion of "let Fire Sweep be a template you can use for iterative attacks" did. The other AoE seeds are more advanced and thus would act funny at a low level... That one, as long as it works with firestorm, gives a good low AoE damage option.

[Jabsco]

In a game where only one player was a Bender(fire) and the rest of the game was set in a stranded 3.5 would letting Blue Fire overcome Immunity/resistance to fire be over powered? How would one deal with the problem of Fire being the most resisted/Immune Element(other than playing a different bender)?

[Eighth_Seraph]

Well, the firebender as we have him now can already overcome some fire resistance, but not enough to be worthwhile in a standard d20 game. With some DM negotiation, the firebender could take some feats designed for arcane casters that overcome fire resistance and immunity, as well as all kinds of goodies. I'll look 'em up for ya.

However, damage would still be subpar, as I can relate, since the class was not designed to take advantage of magic items, and as long as Fire Blast is a ranged attack roll instead of a ranged touch attack, the bender won't be hitting much. The solution I came up with in a dungeon-crawl one-shot campaign was to keep a ball of fire borrowed from our binder in my palm. The binder had an 8d6 damage breath attack, which I then caught using Play with Fire and continued to draw from throughout the rest of the adventure, keeping a small flame in my palm as a torch when not splitting it in half for a blast. This was at level 5, I think. Good times.

Here's the most important feat for a firebender in normal D&D. Searing Spell.

[Jabsco]

I'm not sure how meta magic would work on a bender, Though I would consider my self a bit of a CO. I have a few Tricks up my sleeve. Thanks for the looking out.

[Eighth_Seraph]

No problem. Just set up the metamagic feat as a template seed, so that applying Searing Spell to a bending form increases the DC by 10, or something like that. Negotiate with your DM, if you want to try it out.

Also, what's a CO? I don't think that you'd consider yourself a Commanding Officer...

[AstralFire]

Other than the resistance problem, though, the bender should be mostly okay. I'd give them AC as a monk, and I suppose a seed to overcome FR would be good. The ability to make custom +Bending skill items would help a lot.

Seraph, any thoughts on that new set of seed proposals?

Also...

Due to my concern for Armor Class values, I put together a table to examine typical canon core defense/offense stats against Avatar def/off stats to see if there was a difference in gap. Glancing at the data compiled, it doesn't appear that the difference is actually that large as far as AC goes, but now I'm worried about HP, damage output, and DR.

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THE PARTICIPANTS:
Canon D&D

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L10: +3 Weapons, +1 from Main Stat Enhancer, +3 Armor, +2 Deflection, (Monk=Wis & Barb=Con off-stat enhancer)
L15: +5 Weapons, +2 from Main Stat, +5 Armor, +3 Deflection, +2 Natural Armor, (Monk, Barb & Fight=Dex off-stat enhancer)
L20: +5 Weapons, +3 from MSE, +5 Armor, +4 Deflection, +3 NA, (MFB off-stat enhancer)

- Reggie D. the Human Fighter. Uses a shield. 16 Str, 12 Dex, 18 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 8 Cha.

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L1: Weapon Focus (Longsword), Shield Specialization
L2: Power Attack
L3: Shield Ward
L4: Close-Quarters Fighting, 17 Str
L6: Improved Toughness, Weapon Specialization
L8: 18 Str, Greater Weapon Focus
L9: Melee Weapon Mastery (Slashing)
L10: Intimidating Strike
L12: Greater Weapon Specialization, Armor Specialization, 19 Str
L14: Slashing Flurry
L15: Iron Will
L16: Howmanyfeats. Blah. Um. Desert Wind Dodge.
L18: Mobility, Weapon Supremacy (Longsword)
L20: Spring Attack

- Lissie the Elf Ranger. Apparently Male. Archer. 10 Str, 18 Dex, 14 Con, 12 Int, 14 Wis, 12 Cha.

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L1: Weapon Focus (Longbow)
L2: Rapid Shot
L3: Endurance, Point-Blank Shot
L4: 19 Dex
L6: Manyshot, Precise Shot
L8: 20 Dex
L9: Ranged Pin
L11: Improved Precise Shot
L12: 21 Dex, Improved Rapid Shot
L15: Natural Bond
L16: 22 Dex
L18: Natural Bond

- Ashley the Human Monk. In possibly the most painful sports bra ever. 10 Str, 16 Dex, 14 Con, 13 Int, 14 Wis, 10 Cha.

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L1: Dodge, Stunning Fist
L2: Combat Reflexes
L3: Weapon Finesse
L4: 17 Dex
L6: Improved Trip, Improved Natural Attack
L8: 18 Dex
L9: Superior Unarmed Strike
L12: Weapon Focus (Unarmed), 19 Dex
L15: Mage-Slayer
L16: 20 Dex
L18: Stand Still
L20: DR 10/M

- Krunk the Half-Orc Barbarian. Extremely unfraggable. 20 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 6 Int, 10 Wis, 10 Cha.

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L1: Weapon Focus (Greatsword)
L3: Power Attack
L4: 21 Str.
L6: Leap Attack
L8: 22 Str.
L9: Improved Bull Rush
L12: Shock Trooper, 23 Str.
L15: Improved Resilience
L16: 24 Str
L18: Reckless Offense

MAB: Melee Attack Bonus
RAB: Ranged Attack Bonus
AC: Armor Class
TAC: Touch Armor Class
DR: Damage Reduction
HP: Health Points

TABLE 1: CANON D&D
{table=head]Character & Level|MAB|RAB|AC|TAC|DR|HP
Level 1||||||
Reggie D|+05|+02|21|11|--/-|014
Lissie* |+02|+06|18|14|--/-|010
Ashley* |-02|+03|16|16|--/-|010
Krunk** |+08|+02|12|09|--/-|016
Level 5||||||
Reggie D|+09|+06|23|14|--/-|052
Lissie |+05|+10|19|14|--/-|036
Ashley |+06|+07|18|17|--/-|036
Krunk |+12|+06|15|09|--/-|058
Level 10||||||
Reggie D|+21|+11|29|18|03/-|109
Lissie |+10|+19|25|17|--/-|068
Ashley |+11|+11|25|22|--/-|068
Krunk |+20|+11|19|11|02/-|120
Level 15||||||
Reggie D***|+23|+16|40|25|05/-|162
Lissie |+15|+27|31|20|--/-|101
Ashley |+19|+19|32|24|--/-|101
Krunk |+29|+16|24|12|04/-|208
Level 20||||||
Reggie D|+30|+21|44|26|05/-|214
Lissie |+20|+33|36|23|--/-|133
Ashley |+24|+23|37|28|10/M|133
Krunk |+36|+21|27|13|06/-|315
[/table]

Avatar d20
- Azulie the Firebender. Control freak. Adorable lisp. 10 Str, 16 Dex, 12 Con, 12 Int, 16 Wis, 10 Cha.

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L1: Focused Bending (Fire Blast), Skill Focus (Firebending)
L3: Weapon Focus (Fire Blast)
L4: 17 Dex
L6: Template Mastery (Focus Fire)
L8: 18 Dex
L9: Template Mastery (Heat Wave)
L12: Template Mastery (Explosion), 19 Dex
L15: Template Mastery (Flamethrower)
L16: 20 Dex
L18: Focused Bending (Cold Fire)

- Cohen the Barbarian. Old dude. Smart, but a jerk. 18 Str, 12 Dex, 14 Con, 8 Int, 10 Wis, 12 Cha.

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L1: Weapon Focus (Greatsword), Power Attack
L3: Leap Attack
L4: 19 Str.
L6: Improved Bull Rush
L8: 20 Str.
L9: Shock Trooper
L12: Improved Resilience, 21 Str
L15: Reckless Offense
L16: 24 Str
L18: Reckless Charge

- Hayley the Rogue. How did she get here...? 12 Str, 14 Dex, 10 Con, 16 Int, 12 Wis, 14 Cha.

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L1: Improved Initiative, Combat Expertise
L3: Weapon Finesse
L4: 15 Dex
L6: Improved Feint
L8: 16 Dex
L9: Deadly Precision
L12: Arterial Strike, 17 Dex
L15: Improved Disarm
L16: 18 Dex
L18: Weapon Focus (Stabby)

(Non-fire benders that may have any special seed uses I am unaware of that can grant AC may not be modeled well... or at all. Be warned, I only know much about Firebender design at this point in time.

I've spent around five hours on this today, so I'm not going to model Earth (Mareeon), Air (Krang), Water (Serfir), or Martial Artists (Ruiji), since I have to also learn those mechanics better THEN make the chart. I'll make charts for them later sometime.)

* Lissie and Ashley are considered to always be Flurrying or Rapid Shotting.
** Krunk's attack roll table does not consider Power Attack, as during a full attack he subtracts from his attack roll, but during a charge he subtracts from his AC. Krunk's Armor and Attack table considers him as raging at all times.
*** Reggie D's attack takes a -5 penalty so he can use Slashing Flurry. His Desert Wind Dodge feat is not taken into consideration as his other calculations are made under a full attack basis.

RAC: Ranged Armor Class

As Touch AC isn't really a notable feature of the ATLA d20 system, the TAC column for this table is being replaced with a "RAC." (...Wait, why did I do a FRIGGIN' TOUCH AC TABLE FOR D&D THEN?! OH MY GOD! )(*#(*(&*#()#)*#_$ I'M AN IDIOT) RAC is very hard for someone of my low math skill to model, because it gets artificially inflated by Deflect Attack. What I'm going to do is take the higher of (RAB+10-Class Appropriate Penalties), versus AC - the higher+1 becomes TAC. Multiple Deflect attempts on the same attack I'd consider a +1 effective AC bonus (that's just a wild guess on my part, I don't know how to handle rerolls at entirely different values) though I'm unsure if iterative deflects take a -5 penalty like iterative attacks do. Seraph, Meph? Regardless, I have not attempted to consider multiple deflects a round. Note that that Touch AC for the bender is only inflated as long as they have deflect attempts remaining.

TABLE 2: AVATAR D20, 2.0
{table=head]Character & Level|MAB|RAB|AC|RAC|DR|HP
Level 1||||||
Azulie |-02|+01|15|16|--/-|007
Cohen |+07|+02|13|13|02/-|016
Hayley |+01|+02|15|15|01/-|006
Level 5||||||
Azulie |+02|+07|17|18|--/-|025
Cohen |+12|+06|14|14|02/-|058
Hayley |+06|+05|16|16|02/-|020
Level 10||||||
Azulie |+07|+12|19|23|--/-|047
Cohen |+18|+11|16|16|06/-|110
Hayley |+10|+09|18|19|04/-|034
Level 15||||||
Azulie |+11|+16|21|27|--/-|070
Cohen |+24|+16|18|18|12/-|178
Hayley |+15|+14|20|20|06/-|048
Level 20||||||
Azulie |+15|+20|23|31|--/-|092
Cohen |+26|+21|20|20|15/-|255
Hayley |+20|+19|22|22|07/-|062[/table]

SUMMARY: ...I'm not quite sure what to make of all of this. I just basically spent the day infodumping, but I figure this data is -good to have- if nothing else. AC is comparatively not too much of an issue, unlike my fears though HP definitely is. Up to this point, my balance considerations were based around standard D&D and the baseline comparison we had a few pages back discussing what each bender-type was capable of in damage. It looks like, though, anything not called 'Barbarian' is pretty much going to die to the first salvo of attacks that aren't physical damage based. (Martial Artists and Fighters can probably take a second salvo.) Rogues are walking death, too.

EDIT: But then again everyone not a bender is hitting softer... Don't pay much attention to my analysis right now, my brain is very tired. I hope the numbers are useful.

[Jabsco]

Character Optimizer
Before I found these Classes
I had a Fire Bender Worked out as
Monk2/Psion(ken)4/Pyro4/Slayer10
The build Above was not a fire focused nor could it reproduce all of the things i wanted it to, thought it was much more powerful. But then I stumbled along The Avatar D20 project and my problems were solved!

And i have found some use from the 3.5 System, A +20 bending Item would only cost 40,000 (only 24,000 if it is a human only Item, with 10 ranks in Knowledge Bending required to use it) Plus Other magic Items Are nice!

[Eighth_Seraph]

Such an item would be absurdly broken. In general, my advice is to ban all skill bonus items to bending. Seriously, a +10 to Firebending item is minor artifact-level power.

[AstralFire]

Such an item would be absurdly broken. In general, my advice is to ban all skill bonus items to bending. Seriously, a +10 to Firebending item is minor artifact-level power.

But benders do not benefit from magic weapons or most magic items. I'm kind of torn on that (and I originally came into this thread, amusingly, when I was trying to determine the balance of that very same thing.)

Anyway, some feedback on the seed revisions'd be cool and... again, really not sure what to make of that big pile of tables I just dropped on the thread. I've been doing this for like eight hours now. @_@

[Jabsco]

Is it Really that broken when the guy next to you has contingent time stops, or 5 free miracles a day? My party consists of An Artificer, Shadow Crafter, Wizard, And A druid. I think I will be Underpowered. We'll see though.

I was never worried about being over powered, Under powered was my bigest concern.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Slow down your creative process a bit, AstralFire, or start sending your ideas to yourself in PMs and store them for now. Most of us don't have the time or wouldn't want to put our entire day into working on the Avatar project. I'm still processing your seeds, and I spend far more time than is healthy on this project. I approve of Burning Edge, with some rewording, along with most of the seed revisions, but I still maintain that the seeds should keep their multiple applications, which you essentially have kept in your rendition, while taking away the labels and making it harder to tell exactly what the seeds do altogether.

Upping AC is a necessity for the benders right now, but reducing seed progression is a no-no, since that would increase the dead level problem. The fire resistances demonstrate situations like this one, in which the firebender seems to passively bend heat away, effectively lessening the damage done. Note that a firebender can bypass fire resistance equal to his own. Also, the flavor for Endurance does not suit firebenders, who are not particularly known for their ability to travel long distances tirelessly, etc.

AstralFire, I think that you're falling into a trap of game design that goes hand-in-hand with having way too much free time. It's commonly known as "trying too hard". I find that the first edition of most things you make looks best, before you "Make it better". Seriously, Sweltering Blast was very much nicer than Heat Wave. I usually practice my tae kwon do after too much time on the computer, which in turn inspires me to improve my monk class, which eventually takes me back to tae kwon do. Find something to keep you in balance, so that the project and the computer don't suck your life away.

[AstralFire]

Right now I'm a little frustrated with hunting for jobs, so I've been taking a break from resumés. Now's as good a time as any to be productive in something else.
:)

The AC gap doesn't appear to be that big of an issue - Wis to AC would be nice, though, as I had to focus Azulie on Dex instead of Wis by a lot. Giving them that would alleviate some of their issues. Could probably use a bigger hit die for the benders and the rogue both.

I think it's more a problem with damage reduction stacking. I'd have to do some numbers crunching, but between armor as DR, the Barbarian's innate DR, and DR to armor thing it looks like Earth/Airbenders and Flurry Martial Artists won't be able to deal him any significant damage. (Just a guess on the benders, I know Water can deal some Cold damage but I think Earth and Air are limited to physical types.)

Some of the HP issue could probably be alleviated at a higher point buy, but a HD size increase for benders and rogues might be a better solution. (Rogues don't need AC as badly, though, as they have less MAD and can get away with armor easier.)

I feel Sweltering Blast was poor design on my part, which I have done before. I can have a 'throw things and see what sticks' philosophy to design. Sweltering, you're okay as long as you five-foot step out. Your buddy stepping in is cool. That's nearly useless. Heat Wave offers a better way to actually perform battlefield control by making the enemy choose whether or not they're going to mess with an area you've tagged - if the advantage of having that space is worth the fatigue. Conversely, of course, if you blow it too early it's no longer a consideration since the enemy is already fatigued so a tagged space is the same as an untagged.

Also, your own party has to be careful where they step.

[Zuki]

...However, damage would still be subpar, as I can relate, since the class was not designed to take advantage of magic items, and as long as Fire Blast is a ranged attack roll instead of a ranged touch attack, the bender won't be hitting much. The solution I came up with in a dungeon-crawl one-shot campaign was to keep a ball of fire borrowed from our binder in my palm. The binder had an 8d6 damage breath attack, which I then caught using Play with Fire and continued to draw from throughout the rest of the adventure, keeping a small flame in my palm as a torch when not splitting it in half for a blast. This was at level 5, I think. Good times.

Long time lurker, first-time poster. Before anything else, I just want to say, I'm a big, big, fan of this project. Really fired up for it, love to help it to completion. I don't have the best head for creating mechanics though, but I'm happy to help evaluate them and provide input later on.

I've been happy to keep lurking and watch the discussion roll by, for the most part. But...this temporary solution to the Firebenders then-low damage confuses me. How exactly does borrowing the flame from the Binder's breath weapon instead of the Bender generating his own flame result in increased damage? Fire is fire, right?

*confuzzled*

[Eighth_Seraph]

Not necessarily. Why does a fireball deal increasing damage based on caster levels? Why do older dragons' breath attacks deal more damage? Why does a burning piece of paper cause discomfort while a welding torch can literally burn your fingers off? There are different stages of heat in fire.

The binder's breath weapon did 8d6 damage, but my Fire Blast damage was, like, 2d6 or 3d6. So I borrowed his fire whenever I could. Seemed to work well enough. Until I burned down a hall made entirely of plant matter, with the party still inside. Fire and smoke in every direction for 60 feet. Predictable, really. It was our DMs younger brother DMing that day, and he didn't appreciate my taking his usual "I blow it up" schtick away from him. So yeah. That's my thermodynamics lesson for today.

Also, a hearty welcome to the project, Zuki! We seem to have a lot of lurkers, don't we?

[Pirate_King]

Such an item would be absurdly broken. In general, my advice is to ban all skill bonus items to bending. Seriously, a +10 to Firebending item is minor artifact-level power.

I think this is stems from the difference between using a firebender in the Avatar world and using one in a traditional D&D game where they must compete with magic users. +10 is a minor artifact level power, but it wouldn't be broken in a normal D&D setting. The Avatar setting has nothing in canon that really does such a thing, since there are no magic items on account of there being no magic.

The question is, then, do we want to make a separate thread to make the bending classes fit better into the rest of the 3.5 rules, counting bending as a supernatural ability, or do we leave that to the non-canon thread? I think it's possible to integrate how benders work in the show with the rest of the D&D world without letting people who aren't familiar with avatar (OMG FREE FIREBALL) butcher the system or the philosophies behind it.

[AstralFire]

So to reiterate my earlier question, Deflect Attack -is- intended to suffer from the iterative attack penalty, correct?

Also, as earlier requested, raised DCs across the board on Play/Manipulate Fire.

[Eighth_Seraph]

Yes, it should. We should make that explicit in the ability's description.

[AstralFire]

Looking over airbenders now, a question; Palm Bow, is it intended to begin firing projectiles on the second round? I've garnered that impression from it needing only a standard action to begin and a full-round to maintain, as otherwise an airbender with a good bending skill could very easily quicken to a move and fire off a new one each round.

Also, is your intent with Air Blast for there to be no damage from sending someone into an object for the first five levels? And it's supposed to cap out at 4d6?

Would it work to deal pummeling damage from above into the ground? If not, could you pummel someone multiple times a round against the same object, since they're already against that object too?

The Airbender's air blasts by default are ranged touch, right? But they all can bull rush the target, while a touch attack seems to be something that just has to nick the target. Air Scythe should definitely remain touch, but I'm not sure about the air blast by default.

(Also small error with the firebender; fire sweep, unlike burst and flamethrower, was not meant to increase the time for bending.)

[Paragon Badger]

Some ideas I came up with while making a firebender, and watching Sozin's Comet again. ;-)

I would suggest changing Fire Sweep a bit, making it a generic fireblast rather than dependent on one's feet. A few times, We see firebenders making chopping motions with their hands and creating crescent-shaped fire. But like the conventional Fire Sweep, it's been used by one's feet, too.

Examples: In The Chase (If that's the title, I can't remember...), Azula slashes through a few buildings to get to Aang, and Zuko later creates a wide (but harmless) arc after seeing Iroh injured.

In their final battle of the show, Azula opened with a few firey roundhouses, and Zuko created a few wide arcs with his break-dancing move in the same battle. Essentially, this would just be applying the Fire Kick Template.

Right after Aang went all Avatar State in the finale, Ozai seemed to attempt beheading him with a firey chop.

Also, because it seemed particularly potent in slicing buildings, it might do half fire/half slashing damage.

Also, I'd advocate AstralFire's Burning Rush strongly, but lower the base DC a bit. Ozai was almost as fast as Aang was during their final battle.

[Pirate_King]

Also, I'd advocate AstralFire's Burning Rush strongly, but lower the base DC a bit. Ozai was almost as fast as Aang was during their final battle.

Ozai was also powered by the comet.

I agree, making firesweep possible without feet seems canon, and would make it possible to use the firekick template on it.

[Superglucose]

Out of curiosity, how long do the weapons created by a firebender made of fire last? If firebenders can't get full attacks out of those weapons the weapons are useless, and the way it looks like it's written a firebender uses a move action to make the weapon, gets his one (1) attack, and then it disappears.

Maybe require a concentration check to keep the flames going or something?

[felinoel]

Out of curiosity, how long do the weapons created by a firebender made of fire last? If firebenders can't get full attacks out of those weapons the weapons are useless, and the way it looks like it's written a firebender uses a move action to make the weapon, gets his one (1) attack, and then it disappears.

Maybe require a concentration check to keep the flames going or something?

It doesn't seem that hard on the show... maybe a small concentration check to keep the flames going, which isn't exactly fair for an air and firebender, their weapons they create from bending would have to constantly be concentrated on, while a water and earthbender can make their weapons and they stay there, unless the waterbender uses a water whip or makes an ice weapon in really hot temperature, then she would have to concentrate on the weapon...

[Superglucose]

Then have the weapons stay there until the bender lets them go? I just don't think they should disappear at the end of the round.

[felinoel]

Then have the weapons stay there until the bender lets them go? I just don't think they should disappear at the end of the round.

Oh which reminds me, when I last looked at the bending forms, I could not find the create weapon for airbenders? Although it is never shown to be possible, Aang does go into great detail about a wind sword

[AstralFire]

If you're talking about my version (since the official one doesn't include a one round duration):

A firebender may, as a move action that does not provoke an attack of opportunity, form a long, narrow tongue of fire. This weapon has all the statistics of a shortsword with the exception that it deals 1d6 fire damage. Additionally, a firebender may treat it as a normal shortsword for purposes of weapon-based feats, although they may not trip or disarm (or be disarmed) with this weapon as it is made of fire and thus insubstantial. Firebenders are considered proficient with these weapons, even if they are not proficient with normal shortswords. The weapon only lasts for one round, although the firebender can choose to maintain it every round afterwards at the original DC as a swift action. If the weapon ever leaves the firebender's hand, it immediately dissipates.