[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[felinoel]

If you're talking about my version (since the official one doesn't include a one round duration):

What about airbenders not getting create weapon?

[AstralFire]

What about airbenders not getting create weapon?

Hey, I'm not the one in charge of the project. *shrug* But not only is it something we don't see in the show, it's also something that's kind of hard to visualize or comprehend, a physical weapon made out of air.

[felinoel]

Hey, I'm not the one in charge of the project. *shrug* But not only is it something we don't see in the show, it's also something that's kind of hard to visualize or comprehend, a physical weapon made out of air.

Aang describes it pretty well if I remember right, maybe I should go find the transcript and quote him...

[Pirate_King]

We went over fire weapons much earlier in the development, and perhaps it hasn't been changed on the website, but as far as I was aware, we were limiting the creation to daggers, since that's the only thing we see aside from whips on the show.

Aang's description of a "wind sword" doesn't really describe the use of a weapon. bending air around the hilt of a sword like that would probably simply produce the effects of the air scythe seed

[felinoel]

We went over fire weapons much earlier in the development, and perhaps it hasn't been changed on the website, but as far as I was aware, we were limiting the creation to daggers, since that's the only thing we see aside from whips on the show.

Aang's description of a "wind sword" doesn't really describe the use of a weapon. bending air around the hilt of a sword like that would probably simply produce the effects of the air scythe seed

Oh I remember that seed, I better go give it another look then

[Superglucose]

Cool and all on the daggers, but how long do they last?

[felinoel]

Cool and all on the daggers, but how long do they last?

I think they said indefinitely

[Eighth_Seraph]

The fire daggers last as long as a firebender is willing to maintain them.

Also, I'm really disappointed that we never saw the Wind Sword ability, even in the finale. Ah well. Maybe some kind of ability that lets an airbender channel his blast through a melee attack, firebender-style? Or could we make it a form?

[Superglucose]

Excellent! A build occurs to me

[felinoel]

The fire daggers last as long as a firebender is willing to maintain them.

Also, I'm really disappointed that we never saw the Wind Sword ability, even in the finale. Ah well. Maybe some kind of ability that lets an airbender channel his blast through a melee attack, firebender-style? Or could we make it a form?

When I suggested that Pirate King said to look at the Air Scythe

[String]

Quick Question (Yay Free Internet at the Airport!): Whats the consensus on Earthbenders using already existing rock formations to do earthbending? I'm reffering specifically to the finale where Aang shows this at least twice:

1) The move where he causes two of the pillars to crush together. What the hell seed/form is that? DC?

2) Where he rebounds off one pillar and kicks another, causing it to BREAK IN HALF (cleanly, I might add) and fly towards Ozai. That is definetly not an Earth Blast. (I am willing to believe that the giant rock-on-foot thing was , tho)

[felinoel]

Quick Question (Yay Free Internet at the Airport!): Whats the consensus on Earthbenders using already existing rock formations to do earthbending? I'm reffering specifically to the finale where Aang shows this at least twice:

1) The move where he causes two of the pillars to crush together. What the hell seed/form is that? DC?

2) Where he rebounds off one pillar and kicks another, causing it to BREAK IN HALF (cleanly, I might add) and fly towards Ozai. That is definetly not an Earth Blast. (I am willing to believe that the giant rock-on-foot thing was , tho)

And there is also those giant coin-like things Earth Kingdom soldiers bent at Aang trying to get him to get in the avatar state, and I do remember a statue flying around by an earthbender somewhere

[Mephibosheth]

Quick Question (Yay Free Internet at the Airport!): Whats the consensus on Earthbenders using already existing rock formations to do earthbending? I'm reffering specifically to the finale where Aang shows this at least twice:

1) The move where he causes two of the pillars to crush together. What the hell seed/form is that? DC?

2) Where he rebounds off one pillar and kicks another, causing it to BREAK IN HALF (cleanly, I might add) and fly towards Ozai. That is definetly not an Earth Blast. (I am willing to believe that the giant rock-on-foot thing was , tho)

In general, situations like these are where DM/player cooperation come into play, since we can't make rules to account for every possible situation. In the case of the two pillars, you could rule it was an Earth Blast (or at least dealt damage as one) combined with some form of Immobilize. In the second case, it might very well just be an Earth Blast with the DM ruling a bit of extra damage because of the size. Each DM is probably going to handle the situation in a different way, which is what we want to encourage.

Also, I know I've gotten behind in the thread. I'll try to catch up, but it might take awhile.

Mephibosheth

[felinoel]

In general, situations like these are where DM/player cooperation come into play, since we can't make rules to account for every possible situation. In the case of the two pillars, you could rule it was an Earth Blast (or at least dealt damage as one) combined with some form of Immobilize. In the second case, it might very well just be an Earth Blast with the DM ruling a bit of extra damage because of the size. Each DM is probably going to handle the situation in a different way, which is what we want to encourage.

Also, I know I've gotten behind in the thread. I'll try to catch up, but it might take awhile.

Mephibosheth

What about the giant coins though?

[Mephibosheth]

What about the giant coins though?

Same thing. I'd rule they're nothing more than Earth Blasts, just with a different description. Again, if you wanted to, you could give some extra damage dice or something, but it doesn't even need to be that complicated, necessarily.

[felinoel]

Same thing. I'd rule they're nothing more than Earth Blasts, just with a different description. Again, if you wanted to, you could give some extra damage dice or something, but it doesn't even need to be that complicated, necessarily.

Interesting...

[Gmmaster42]

I just thought about something. I don't know if this is the right place to mention it, but what effect does aging actually have on benders? I know what the effects normally are in D&D, but we've definitely seen old people doing some amazingly dexterous stunts. Iroh, Paku and Roku come to mind immediately (although Roku was an Avatar). Another question, does the Avatar's connection to the spirits give him an extended life? I seem to recall Avatar Kyoshi living to be 250 years old, and she looks not a day older than 30. Then again Avatar Roku was about 65 maybe 70 when he died and did look like an old man. Looks like time really wasn't kind to Roku...

[felinoel]

I just thought about something. I don't know if this is the right place to mention it, but what effect does aging actually have on benders? I know what the effects normally are in D&D, but we've definitely seen old people doing some amazingly dexterous stunts. Iroh, Paku and Roku come to mind immediately (although Roku was an Avatar). Another question, does the Avatar's connection to the spirits give him an extended life? I seem to recall Avatar Kyoshi living to be 250 years old, and she looks not a day older than 30. Then again Avatar Roku was about 65 maybe 70 when he died and did look like an old man. Looks like time really wasn't kind to Roku...

Kyoshi's spirit is probably from when she was younger, and Guru Pthik is about 130, I think these humans just have an extended lifetime

[Pirate_King]

There do seem to be some continuity issues there, though. Still, spirit roku doesn't look quite as bedraggled as old man roku from The Avatar and the Firelord, but that could be situational. I'd run that they project how they view themselves in the spirit world, and Roku sees himself as aged because of his shame in his inability to stop the war from happening, or something, and let age do what it does to anyone. I wouldn't put Iroh or Paku at venerable age yet, wisdom gets better with age, and most benders would take a high dex anyway.

[felinoel]

There do seem to be some continuity issues there, though. Still, spirit roku doesn't look quite as bedraggled as old man roku from The Avatar and the Firelord, but that could be situational. I'd run that they project how they view themselves in the spirit world, and Roku sees himself as aged because of his shame in his inability to stop the war from happening, or something, and let age do what it does to anyone. I wouldn't put Iroh or Paku at venerable age yet, wisdom gets better with age, and most benders would take a high dex anyway.

I think that too, because when Aang was in Fire Nation clothes and he entered the Spirit World, not only did he get his monk robes back, but he also was bald again =b

[Mephibosheth]

So, as promised, this is my “catch up to the crazy amount of debate that occurred while I was out of town” post. I hope I at least touch on all the important issues.

The first thing I want to address is the effort to re-balance the firebender. AstralFire, I realize you’ve put a lot of work into your re-writes and I really appreciate the input, but I don’t think I can support accepting it as a whole. This project is so close to being completed and the basic structure has worked so far, I just don’t think that the degree of overhaul you propose is necessary. That said, there are a lot of things about your newest firebender (found in the first post of page 34) that I like and support including, listed below.

• Reducing the bending range. I support reducing the bending range for all bending classes from the current level (40 ft plus 5 ft/level) to 30 ft plus 5 ft/2 levels, giving a maximum basic range of 40 ft. I also support making each 5 ft range increase require a cumulative +2 DC increase, rather than a +1 DC increase. I think it’s important for benders to remain able to increase their range, but not to the extent they currently can.
• Alterations of the Manipulate Fire ability (with some minor changes, but in general keeping it as you wrote). It’s just more clearly delineated than the original version.
• Your changes to the Burning Rush seed. It condenses and simplifies everything.
• Your re-write of Incandescence. Your version is more useful than the original. My only comment would be to make it explicit that the object takes damage as well as dealing damage to creatures that touch it. Also, it should clarify whether the object gets a reflex save when the seed is first used or each round.
• Your original Heat Wave template seed, with the Lingering Flames seed from the most recent write-up replacing the Conflagrate application.
• Your Focus Fire seed, but as a feat to represent Azula’s blue fire.
• Your Pyrotechnics seed.
• Your new versions of Cold Fire, with the only suggested change being a reduction in the penalty to Deflect Attack attempts to -10 or even -5. I re-watched the finale last night, and Aang deflects Ozai’s lightening at least twice.

There are also a few other changes to the current version of the firebender that I support. These may or may not have been brought up in the past, but I want to make them clear.

• First and foremost, altering the structure of all AoE firebending seeds except Fire Sweep to base the damage off the Firebending check rather than Fire Blast damage. The goal of this change is to increase the utility of AoE seeds and make them more viable at high levels without having them completely overshadow the Fire Blast. Most of them would follow the pattern “1d6 points of fire damage, plus an additional 1d6 points of fire damage for every 5 by which the firebender’s skill check exceeds the base DC.”
• Explicitly allowing Fire Sweep to be used as an iterative attack while keeping its damage based on Fire Blast. Also removing references to feet or kicks, so that it can be done with the hands as well.
• Changing the name of Fire Kick to Farflame and removing the ability to deal extra damage. The mechanic for expanding the range of the seeds would remain the same.
• Altering the text of Explosion to allow it to be used with more seeds than just Fire Blast.
• Altering the Intensity seed as follows:
  
  

  Intensity (Template)
  Base DC: +20
  • Intensify: Oftentimes, from a firebender’s point of view, a fire is simply not hot enough. A firebender can combine this template with any damage-dealing firebending seed to increase the damage dealt by 1d6. A firebender can similarly increase the damage dealt by an already existing source of fire within his bending range. Using this seed on a firebending seed is part of the action of that seed, while using it on an already-exisiting source of fire is a standard action. A firebender can increase the damage dealt by increasing the base DC by +10 for every additional 1d6 of fire damage.
  • Quench: A little-used form among most firebenders, a firebender can use this seed to extinguish fire in a single 5-foot square within his bending range as a standard action. A firebender can affect a larger area of fire by increasing the base DC by 2 for every additional 5-foot square.

• Altering Blades of Fire to include a duration for the created weapons, probably based off AstralFire’s seed.

I hope this list of changes addresses most (if not all) of the concerns with the firebender. What do people think about these tweaks?

Next, I want to address fire resistance. In a canon game (which is what this system is being designed for), the only source of fire resistance is either levels in firebender or the Fire Retardant armor craftsmanship bonus. An item with fire resistance 10 would cost almost 10,000 gp (not really available until after 10th level). I’m not too worried about fire resistance limiting the effectiveness of firebenders any more than I’m worried about damage reduction negating the other benders. Also, Eighth_Seraph, you mentioned firebenders overcoming fire resistance and I know we talked about it, but I can’t find it in the current write-up. Do you remember what the mechanic was? I think that would be a good thing to include, if only for Agni Kai purposes.

Next, the issue of bender survivability. The suggestion was made to increase all bender hit dice to d8’s and I don’t have a problem with this. Ultimately, benders can access almost as much armor as anyone else and (with the exception of airbenders) can acquire damage reduction and all sorts of other resistances through their armor. In prior playtesting battles, we had problems with AC for almost everyone being ridiculously high, and we toned down the wealth-by-level guidelines for this very reason. If we increase their HD and take DR, other resistances, and Deflect Attack into account, I don’t see a problem. Again, this will probably come out with playtesting, but for the nonce…

Next, some question on the airbender.

Looking over airbenders now, a question; Palm Bow, is it intended to begin firing projectiles on the second round? I've garnered that impression from it needing only a standard action to begin and a full-round to maintain, as otherwise an airbender with a good bending skill could very easily quicken to a move and fire off a new one each round.

It’s intended to be usable during the same round it’s initiated, provided there are projectiles at hand. The seed was created to represent a specific instance, and is limited based on that. We should probably prohibit quickening the full-round action needed to maintain it, since that’s not how it worked in the show (the Imprisoned episode from season 1, in case you’re interested).

Also, is your intent with Air Blast for there to be no damage from sending someone into an object for the first five levels? And it's supposed to cap out at 4d6?

Yeah, we should probably add a “minimum 1d6” clause in there somewhere. However, airbenders weren’t built to be able to deal damage on the level of other benders. That’s not how airbenders are supposed to operate.

Would it work to deal pummeling damage from above into the ground? If not, could you pummel someone multiple times a round against the same object, since they're already against that object too?

I would rule you can’t do this, and we should probably specify. Thanks for catching this.

The Airbender's air blasts by default are ranged touch, right? But they all can bull rush the target, while a touch attack seems to be something that just has to nick the target. Air Scythe should definitely remain touch, but I'm not sure about the air blast by default.

We decided to make it ranged touch for a few reasons. First, because there are multiple opportunities to resist and Air Blast, it should be easier to hit. Second, an Air Blast doesn’t necessarily have to penetrate armor or shields to push someone back, meaning it functions best as a ranged touch. Think of it as not so much nicking the target, but hitting the target’s mass before being stopped by armor.

Next, the proposal was made to craft a seed for a wind sword like Aang mentions in Sokka’s Master. I could see two possible methods for this. First, creating a seed that allows the airbender to create a sword that deals slashing damage. Second, would be to simply make it a combination of Air Scythe and Wind Shaping. I could see going either way, and will support whatever has consensus.

I know I’m not addressing ageing in the Avatar world at this point, but I haven’t had a chance to give it much thought. I hope I’ve touched on everything else. Comments?

Mephibosheth

Edit: I forgot to mention. If you search "avatar d20" without quotes on google, our websitecomes up as the second match and the discussion threads come up third. If you put it in quotes, the website comes up first and the discussion second. Go us!

Edit II: I'm an idiot. Apparently you don't need to succeed on a touch attack to initiate a bull rush. Still, my other two arguments stand.

[Eighth_Seraph]

*Wild Applause*

We're getting something done! Something concrete! w00t! I don't know if that was an official "I'm gonna go put this on the website and OP now" or an "I support this", but I think it's good that we're getting this done. I do, however, disagree on two points. 1) Changing Fire Kick to Farflame. I dunno, it's just a cheesy name. Go ahead and use it if you like, but any firebender I write up will be kicking his fire blasts to go long range.

2) That benders have a ridiculously high AC. Maybe in the first round of playtesting; but bender ACs (and, well, everyone's, really) are absolutely pitiful right now. Of the four benders in the level 15 PCs vs. Monsters arena match, two have an AC 20, and two have AC 19. Combine that with a base attack of +15 for warrior classes plus a minimum Strength or Dex of 16 plus a decently masterwork weapon (Let's say a simple weapon of Fame), and any basic level-appropriate opponent can hit a bender without even rolling, with a +21 to their first attack. Then there's there squishiness, which is already being addressed with the larger hit dice.

One thing that I've noticed in the arena matches is that people tend to forget that class defense bonus and armor bonuses don't stack. So ACs of 25 go down to 20 right before a match starts. My idea is to allow the Mastercrafting bonus to AC, not the original armor bonus, stack with class defense. This reflects standard D&D, in that the magical bonuses to armor are enhancement bonuses, and thus stack with class defense bonuses. Not a problem with the bending classes, of course, but it's relevant to the current discussion.

I would also like to point out that airbenders are beyond squishy at this point. Without even basic armor proficiency, they don't get the DR 2/- that fire and earthbenders get with masterwork chainmail, which doesn't incur an armor check penalty. Further, their AC is quite nearly as low as all the other benders, though their Wisdom to AC is helping. Dodge bonus doesn't do very much until higher levels. Not too many people want to playtest the airbender for some reason, so there's little to work with in terms of hard data.

[Shades of Gray]

Did we institute a rule saying it's easier to deflect your own element? A Firebender can deflect fire easily, just by making his arms repel fire.

EDIT: And what about my suggestion for bending study feats for martial characters? I remember them being something like:

Fire: Add Wis to damage when charging

Water: Once per day re-roll failed attack roll

Earth: When you don't move in a round you gain +4 versus Trip, Overrun, and Bull rush checks.

Air: I think it was Wis to AC.

[AstralFire]

Re: Airbenders and Ranged Touch:

Third, an Air Blast doesn’t necessarily have to penetrate armor or shields to push someone back, meaning it functions best as a ranged touch. Think of it as not so much nicking the target, but hitting the target’s mass before being stopped by armor.

That's pretty much exactly how bludgeoning damage works, though (how Earth and Water Blast work). And a strike strongly placed on someone's mass enough to move them with air, I would argue, would also subject them to quite a lot of heat when hit by a firebender unless their armor contains a double-layered vacuum seal. But those are not ranged touch.

[Mephibosheth]

*Wild Applause*

We're getting something done! Something concrete! w00t! I don't know if that was an official "I'm gonna go put this on the website and OP now" or an "I support this", but I think it's good that we're getting this done. I do, however, disagree on two points. 1) Changing Fire Kick to Farflame. I dunno, it's just a cheesy name. Go ahead and use it if you like, but any firebender I write up will be kicking his fire blasts to go long range.

*bows gracefully and waves* Thank you, thank you. It was really nothing .

I'm also a fan of getting things done. The above post is simply an "I support the following" post, but I would be more than happy to make those changes to the website, provided there's no significant objection. I always want to at least try to get community approval before making a change on the website.

I really don't care which name we go with. I was just looking for something that didn't specify a body part, since it seems that people are concerned about that issue somewhat. If anyone has a better name, or strongly favors one or the other, please post.

2) That benders have a ridiculously high AC. Maybe in the first round of playtesting; but bender ACs (and, well, everyone's, really) are absolutely pitiful right now. Of the four benders in the level 15 PCs vs. Monsters arena match, two have an AC 20, and two have AC 19. Combine that with a base attack of +15 for warrior classes plus a minimum Strength or Dex of 16 plus a decently masterwork weapon (Let's say a simple weapon of Fame), and any basic level-appropriate opponent can hit a bender without even rolling, with a +21 to their first attack. Then there's there squishiness, which is already being addressed with the larger hit dice.

One thing that I've noticed in the arena matches is that people tend to forget that class defense bonus and armor bonuses don't stack. So ACs of 25 go down to 20 right before a match starts. My idea is to allow the Mastercrafting bonus to AC, not the original armor bonus, stack with class defense. This reflects standard D&D, in that the magical bonuses to armor are enhancement bonuses, and thus stack with class defense bonuses. Not a problem with the bending classes, of course, but it's relevant to the current discussion.

I would also like to point out that airbenders are beyond squishy at this point. Without even basic armor proficiency, they don't get the DR 2/- that fire and earthbenders get with masterwork chainmail, which doesn't incur an armor check penalty. Further, their AC is quite nearly as low as all the other benders, though their Wisdom to AC is helping. Dodge bonus doesn't do very much until higher levels. Not too many people want to playtest the airbender for some reason, so there's little to work with in terms of hard data.

I only said that because I remember from the first round everyone had ridiculous AC's and benders couldn't hit anything. I'm open to any suggestions on how to fix this, though I can't think of any at the moment. I'm totally fine with your suggestion about allowing MW bonuses to AC to stack with the class defense bonus. Do you think this would be enough, or is something else necessary.

I'm also starting to think that it might be a good idea to give airbenders proficiency with cloth armor so they have access to DR and other resistances. Thoughts?

Did we institute a rule saying it's easier to deflect your own element? A Firebender can deflect fire easily, just by making his arms repel fire.

We talked about it. I'm fine with that change, but I guess I forgot to mention it in my post. Nothing huge, though. Maybe a +2 or +4 bonus to the opposed attack roll?

EDIT: And what about my suggestion for bending study feats for martial characters? I remember them being something like:

Fire: Add Wis to damage when charging

Water: Once per day re-roll failed attack roll

Earth: When you don't move in a round you gain +4 versus Trip, Overrun, and Bull rush checks.

Air: I think it was Wis to AC.

The idea is interesting. Not really sure about the specifics. Some of them seem reasonable, but the air ability seems noticeably more powerful than the others. Maybe a small (+2 or so) dodge bonus to AC when wearing light armor? Something like that?

[Mephibosheth]

Re: Airbenders and Ranged Touch:

That's pretty much exactly how bludgeoning damage works, though (how Earth and Water Blast work). And a direct strike on someone's mass enough to move them with air, I would argue, would also subject them to quite a lot of heat unless their armor contains a double-layered vacuum seal. But those are not ranged touch.

Remember though, this is D&D not real life. Touch attacks disregard armor, shield, and natural armor bonuses. Essentially, all you have to do is touch the target, not penetrate their solid defenses. Again, targets have a lot of opportunities to resist this, so I think it's reasonable that it is easier to hit.

[Pirate_King]

That's pretty much exactly how bludgeoning damage works, though (how Earth and Water Blast work). And a strike strongly placed on someone's mass enough to move them with air, I would argue, would also subject them to quite a lot of heat when hit by a firebender unless their armor contains a double-layered vacuum seal. But those are not ranged touch.

Well, that'd be why fire damage ignores damage reduction, and armor class(Despite its name) is based on more than just armor, especially since we're using the defense bonus mechanic(also, defense bonus counts for touch AC). Besides, Airblast is not a damaging attack, it's a bull rush, meaning it just pushes you. It does damage if it pushes you into something, but that is subject to DR (I think)

Edit: pseudo-ninja'd

[felinoel]

Did I miss this pyrotechnics seed? Can someone link me to it or guess what page it is on?

Did we institute a rule saying it's easier to deflect your own element? A Firebender can deflect fire easily, just by making his arms repel fire.

EDIT: And what about my suggestion for bending study feats for martial characters? I remember them being something like:

Fire: Add Wis to damage when charging

Water: Once per day re-roll failed attack roll

Earth: When you don't move in a round you gain +4 versus Trip, Overrun, and Bull rush checks.

Air: I think it was Wis to AC.

When its their own element I think they are just bending whats being thrown at them...

[Gmmaster42]

I know I’m not addressing ageing in the Avatar world at this point, but I haven’t had a chance to give it much thought.

Yeah, I was just thinking about it and it caught my attention. I just wanted to put the question out there. The Guru is pretty dexterous as well I just noticed. They could be just long lived humans with really high Dex scores, but somehow that doesn't sit well with me.

[AstralFire]

I think it's more of an issue with how D&D ages people than anything else. If they ditched the cumulatively stacking physical penalties then things would be modeled fine. After all, it's not like old people in our society who have kept physically fit all their lives, well into senior citizenship, are superfrail.