[Avatar d20 Project] Bending System and Bending Classes - Thread II

[Lord Tataraus]

Just to cut in real quick from out of the blue. I've been following this discussion for awhile and I think it would be best if everyone steps back a bit and looks at what we are trying to accomplish. My answer is this: we are trying to give the earthbender a minor, but useful ability based off what he/she would learn from a waterbender. To do this, we need a spectrum of philosophy to work with. We need to narrow down the general philosophies of both the waterbender and earthbender to where they overlap. To do this lets look at their opposites.

Air: quick, fluid, agile, evasive, very little offense
Fire: quick, accented, evasive, highly offensive

Water is more offensive than air, but not as much as earth or fire, but keeps the fluidity.
Earth is more rooted defensive than fire, but keeps most of the high offense but does not have any of the evasiveness or quickness.

Thus the common ground of earth and water is an offensive focus or possibly an active defense.

Also, if you look at some of the stances Katara assumes, they seem to be very solid, but have room for fluidity. Maybe an earthbender realizes that rocks can be fluid when they are many and small but still solid and strong? Just to through out ideas.

[Pirate_King]

then perhaps waterbending study would be a prerequisite feat for taking sandbending seeds?

[Ceiling009]

Actually, If you take the Airbending effect from the study feats, that's more or less what you get from what Lord is saying. Fluid Earth. It quite possible that instead of focusing one changing it to something new, re arrange some effects and find a new idea to fill the miss Airbending study effect.

[Dolphin Safe]

Well, perhaps we could use the Bending Study feat for access to a minor Sandbending technique, which really is a "fluid earth", and keep the idea of flying rubble for the Airbender.

[Ceiling009]

Hmm, thinking about it, I think giving them an extra deflect attempt is a bit too strong, I'd rather give them a boost to their deflect attempt, either a +1 or +2 kinda like weapon focus except for deflect attempts only.

[Mephibosheth]

Just wanted to let everyone know that I've updated the website to reflect the agreed-upon changes to the firebender and waterbender classes. I added the Child of the Sun/Moon abilities, replaced the Swim ability with Ski, and altered the firebender's energy resistance. Let me know if you have any suggestions or comments

[FlyMolo]

I'm going to non-sequitur into quickened bending here. Agreed, high level benders can do crazy stuff with quickened forms. Fire at the enemy, freeze a river solid, then transport yourself 200 feet, in a single round. However, in the Sokka's Master vs Waterbender 20 battle, the waterbender almost lost. Tactical errors were made on both sides, but if Sokka's Master had rolled a little better on damage, the waterbender would have lost. I therefore make the case that it's not that overpowered.

And most importantly, it's a lot of fun to play with. Trust me, I know.


Edit: V What consensus?

[Ceiling009]

I do wanna know the consensus on what do with some of the bending study feats... especially that Water Study effect on earthbenders...

[Eighth_Seraph]

Before we go into quickened bending, I think we need to finish the discussion on the bending study feats while we still have ideas flowing. I agree with whoever says that circular attack is not the way to go for earthbenders with Waterbending Study. The best idea so far seems to be Pirate King's "Change Flow" ability, since it uses both the rootedness and defensive nature of earth (the bender stays in place and deflects an attack before it reaches him) and an aspect of water in the changing of the blast's flow. It's powerful, yes, but we can put some restrictions on it.

Waterbending Study
Prerequisites: 9 ranks in any Bending skill (or however many it was)
Benefit: The benefits of this feat depend on which bending skill(s) you fulfill the prerequisite ranks with.
Earthbending: Once per turn when you make a Deflect Bending attempt against an enemy bender's blast (this does not work against other ranged attacks), you may shape the wall of earth you create in order to change the flow of the opponent's blast, diverting the attack from yourself to an opponent instead. To do so, you must make a Reflex save opposed by half your opponent's attack roll for the blast. If you succeed, you may angle the blast to hit any opponent within a cone extending from your opponent to yourself and ten feet beyond you. The opponent must make a Reflex save half damage (against your save DC) or take damage according to the original blast damage.

A bit complicated, I must admit. Thoughts?

[Ceiling009]

yeah, it's a bit complicated. So complicated, that I could see a lot of players just not bother with it, or GM's just hand waving it to something else. I still don't like it granting anything like circular attack, because that's so something un-earthbender, and even if they're enlightened to the ideas of water, it's just something I don't see. I'd rather maybe see, something like "Water Carves Canyons", where they gain a bonus to attack rolls when being deflected. Or something.

[ErrantX]

Hmm... ya know what Ceiling009, I think you may be on to something. Water Carves Canyons, say, it allows the Earthbender to add his Wisdom modifier to attempts to overcome Deflect Bending attempts (does aid in actually hitting one's target). It's useful, but not world breaking.

Thoughts for that?

-X

[Ceiling009]

Hmmm, Yeah, that works, though, I'd probably say more like Constitution Modifier... As to why, it's more like the strength of earth, though wisdom works just as well.

[Lord Tataraus]

Hmmm, Yeah, that works, though, I'd probably say more like Constitution Modifier... As to why, it's more like the strength of earth, though wisdom works just as well.

I'm with X on this one, that's a great idea. It really seems to fit, its slightly offensive but not too much (I'd say it only applies as a penatly to any deflect attempt). Also, wisdom is used for anything related to bending so, constitution doesn't make much sense.

[ErrantX]

Consider the Waterbending Study feat updated then. Are we ready to close the books on it?

-X

[Ceiling009]

I give it my thumbs up.

[Pirate_King]

looks shiny to me

[Mephibosheth]

Just to be clear, here are the Bending Study feats as updated. Note that I included the alteration to the Earthbending Study "fire" ability, replacing the climbing ability with a bonus to checks to resist being involuntarily moved (as suggested on page 2). Here they are:

Waterbending Study
By studying the arts of the ebb and flow of the tides like a waterbender, a bender may use those principles in bending their own element.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Bending) 9 ranks.
Benefit: Depending on one's bending class, this feat grants the following:
Earth - The earthbender learns that water may carve canyons and may apply this technique to his earthbending. The earthbender may add his Wisdom modifier to rolls to overcome another bender's Deflect Bending attempts.
Air - By studying the effects of pressure on water, an airbender may learn to better focus his energies with pressurized air. The airbender may now make an air blast attack as if he were a waterbender of equal level. The damage from this attack is non-lethal. If the airbender possesses the Air Scythe seed, he may now do lethal damage with that attack, regardless of whether or not he has a staff.
Fire - Redirect Lightning (Base DC 35): A technique adopted from the waterbenders’ philosophy and art of using an enemy’s power against him, this seed is generally used to defend against one of the firebenders’ most deadly abilities. A firebender can use a Deflect Bending action to redirect any lightning bolts (natural or otherwise) passing within 5 feet of the firebender. Because the bender is essentially letting the lightning hit him, this seed does not require an attack roll, as opposed to Deflect Bending.
The firebender must make a DC 15 Concentration check to ensure that the lightning doesn’t pass through his heart as he channels it to his other hand. Failure indicates that the firebender takes the appropriate damage for the lightning, and he fails to redirect it. On a successful check, the firebender channels the lightning to the other side of his body, redirecting it as he desires.

Airbending Study
The flows of the wind may influence all elements, and an astute bender may learn power by understanding this.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Bending) 9 ranks.
Benefit: Depending on one's bending class, this feat grants the following:
Earth - Air flows around all obstacles, and the earthbender who learns this understands a new way to mold his stubborn element. By breaking down his earth blast into dozens of pebbles, he may negate a foe's cover. Reduce a foe's cover bonus by one step (full to partial, partial to none), but reduce the earth blast by 1d6 due to the loss of solid mass.
Water - Air currents mass and swell around an airbender, aiding their movements. The insightful waterbender learns that while air exists around the body, water exists inside of it. With this understanding, the waterbender may use his water to aid his equilibrium, gaining his Wisdom modifier as a circumstance bonus to Balance and Tumble checks.
Fire - With similiarly insubstantial elements, the firebender learns ways to manipulate his flame to increase it's defensive capabilities, as befits an airbender. By learning to channel his flame's currents through the air around him, he makes a better defense for himself. The firebender's penalty to Deflect Bending is reduced to +0.

Firebending Study
The breath of the dragon is the power of the firebender, and by learning this principle a bender may find that the breath can bring strength to his own element.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Bending) 9 ranks.
Benefit: Depending on one's bending class, this feat grants the following:
Air - Breath is the airbender's territory, for it is the element itself that they bend. By manipulating air currents, the bender may reduce some of the sting of a firebender's breath. So long as the airbender is aware of the incoming fire and he is taking a defensive action, he gains a Fire Resistance equal to his Wisdom modifier.
Water - The natural antithesis of fire, the waterbender learns that strength of fire lies in its intensity. With this knowledge, the waterbender may increase the force of his water blast by adding his Wisdom modifier to the damage.
Earth - For the earthbender, the ways of fire may teach a lesson of haste and passion. The earthbender may increase the speed of his earth blasts by reducing the size and power of the blast. When making a full attack action, the earthbender receives an extra attack at his highest attack bonus. The damage of the blasts are reduced by 1d6 and all attacks receive a -2 penalty.

Earthbending Study
Hard and unyielding, the earthbender's element is as resilient as he is. A truly perceptive bender glean an epiphany with his own element by understanding this.
Prerequisites: Knowledge (Bending) 9 ranks.
Benefit: Depending on one's bending class, this feat grants the following:
Air - The resolute and unyielding earth defies the changing winds, and the airbender that learns this, learns that his element too may be unyielding it's strength. The airbender may now oppose bull rush attempts by utilizing his airbending, using an airbending skill check instead of the normal bull rush resistance roll.
Water - Water may carve canyons into the earth, but the hardest earth directs where this water flows. By learning how to form harder ice, the waterbender learns to be unyielding. The waterbender may add his Wisdom modifier to the hardness of his ice and twice his Wisdom modifier to the ice's hit points, and he may increase the break DC on immobilizing ice constructs by +2.
Fire - Inspired by earthbending’s stability and strong root, a firebender learns to use his bending to improve his ability to stand strong. As a move action, a firebender can melt the earth under his feet, creating small footholds or depressions in the earth. This grants him a bonus against bull rush, overrun, and trip attempts and any other effect that would cause him to involuntarily leave his space equal to his Wisdom modifier. This bonus ends if the firebender leaves his square for any reason. A firebender can only use this ability while standing on an earthen surface, and cannot use it while prone or flatfooted.

If these are the versions people support, they get my "ok" as well.

[ErrantX]

Negative from me on the alteration to Earthbending Study: Fire. It's essentially the same ability for Air, just a bonus to the normal mechanic as opposed to using a skill check to oppose bull rushes. It's still a bonus to oppose bull rushes. I think that each element should learn something different. I dunno, I vote negative on that.

-X

[Dolphin Safe]

...is there a reason why each element should learn something different? I guess each element might learn different things from another, but does it have to be that way?

[ErrantX]

...is there a reason why each element should learn something different? I guess each element might learn different things from another, but does it have to be that way?

Every single other ability is a variation on a class effect or principle of another bender. Yes, I do think it's important and I do think that's how it should be.

-X

[Dolphin Safe]

Why? It seems perfectly logical. Or is it just a matter of conformity?

[Ceiling009]

maybe a speed increase? It's hard to say exactly what melting rock does for anything, climbing speed is kinda silly, while the bonuses against bull rush works... it is a lot like the airbender one... I mean what does it err boil down to?

[Dolphin Safe]

Well, if it's such a sticking point, how about we give Firebenders a variation of the Head-on-Defense ability? Basically they get to add their Con mod to their Reflex save as well as their Dex mod.

The Firebender discovers that breath mastery can be applied to stability and strength as well as Firebending, enhancing their ability to circumvent dangerous situations.

Sound good?

[ErrantX]

Well, if it's such a sticking point, how about we give Firebenders a variation of the Head-on-Defense ability? Basically they get to add their Con mod to their Reflex save as well as their Dex mod.

The Firebender discovers that breath mastery can be applied to stability and strength as well as Firebending, enhancing their ability to circumvent dangerous situations.

Sound good?

Change that to Fort saves and you've got me. "The stubborn and tenacious nature of earth aids the firebender in learning to stand tough against any onslaught."

How's that?

-X

[Mephibosheth]

So, firebenders would add their Con mod twice to their Fortitude saves?

[ErrantX]

So, firebenders would add their Con mod twice to their Fortitude saves?

We're always adding Wisdom to things, meh.

-X

[Mephibosheth]

True. I'll sign off on that.

[Dolphin Safe]

I think this'll work. Though to maybe change the awkwardness of adding Con mod twice, they could add Dex mod? It would be using a strong point of Firebenders for a save that is very Earthbender.

[Ceiling009]

I'm okay with Dex being added to Fort Saves, as a mechanical thing, since I think Benders need a little MAD. But, general Dex isn't associated with standing fast... but I guess it would be more a dodging while not moving.

[Dolphin Safe]

I know... but neither should Con mod's be applied to Reflex saves as per the Head-on-Defense ability.

The reasoning for this would be something along the lines of using fast-twitch muscles and coordination to help hold strong.