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    Default What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Ok, I want to know what this Goliath did to our party. The GM described this spiked-chains wielding goliath as some sort of bull-rushing monster! Here’s the bullet-point abbreviated version of what she (the goliath) did to us in 2 rounds.

    Round 1:
    Goliath wins initiative

    *Charges the paladin, landing a hit
    *Gets a free bull-rush attempt (described as using the chain to knock the paladin back hard)
    *bull-rush went diagonal instead of straight
    *paladin gets bull-rushed into the cleric
    *goliath gets a free trip attempt against each of them, succeeding
    *goliath gets a free hit on each of them as they get tripped
    *goliath gets to make another bull-rush against both the cleric and the paladin
    *cleric and paladin gets knocked into a wall, taking a huge amount of damage…while prone

    *Paladin and Cleric heal themselves, not wanting to provoke while standing up (LoH doesn’t provoke in our games)
    *Sorcerer and Beguiler blast and try to put the goliath to sleep. Didn’t work too well.

    Round 2:

    *Goliath performs first attack on cleric, doing normal damage as well as knocking him into the wall, again doing massive damage. Cleric falls unconscious.
    *Goliath performs 2nd attack on paladin, with the same results.

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Sounds like the Dungeon Crasher variant level from Dungeonscape combined with Shock Trooper's Domino maneuver and Improved Trip. You might have run into a specialized Fighter.
    Will be edited by Ryuuk : Sometime in the future.

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Sounds like a DM who likes to show off...
    Beware of all kobolds!

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Why beware of Kobolds? And do you know how the goliath got to do free bullrushes from hitting us?

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    He's just talking about Pun Pun, but I wouldn't be worried about something that gamebreaking. Your DM probably just wanted to try that build out.

    As for the free bull rushes, all I can think of is the Knockback weapon enhancement.
    Will be edited by Ryuuk : Sometime in the future.

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Ryuuk View Post
    He's just talking about Pun Pun, but I wouldn't be worried about something that gamebreaking. Your DM probably just wanted to try that build out.

    As for the free bull rushes, all I can think of is the Knockback weapon enhancement.
    Bah and Feh. When in reference to a DM kicking players butts with crazy tactics, the only Kobolds that could possibly be referenced are TUCKER'S.
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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    It sounds like you've been killed by a goliath with:

    1. Knockback (Races of Stone feat, allows a free bull rush attempt on a hit)

    2. Dungeoncrasher (Dungeonscape alternate fighter class feature, gives damage when an enemy is bull rushed into a wall... quite a lot of damage, actually)

    3. Shock Trooper (allows a free trip attempt when you bull rush one enemy into another, and lets you bull rush diagonally)

    4. Improved Trip (for the free attack when an enemy is tripped)

    That should cover all of what it did, I think. Except make the Will save, but maybe it just rolled well. Or had a good will save. What level were you at, anyway? I think this could have been done by a level 9 goliath fighter, minimum...
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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    What is this Knockback enchantment and wjhere is it from?

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Maybe Steadfast Determination covered the will save. Hell, lots of feats this guy had.
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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Frosty View Post
    What is this Knockback enchantment and wjhere is it from?
    I'm not sure where it's originally from, but the MIC lists Knockback as a +1 enhancement that lets you force an opponent your size or smaller back 5 feet (Fort negates) 3/day.

    I'm pretty sure it's a reprint from somewhere, and I'm betting before it was worded different (since the version in MIC seems like it's a redone version).

    That said, I doubt the goliath in question had a knockback weapon - as far as I can tell, Snark's feats above cover everything, and a Fighter certainly has enough to cover those and more.
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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Is the feat the same? Allows a fort save to avoid being knocked back? I don't remembering rolling fort saves.

    Our party was around level 8.
    Last edited by Frosty; 2008-01-19 at 02:43 AM.

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    The feat uses a bull rush attempt, with an extra bonus from power attack added on to the roll. So no fort saves (and it also synergizes quite well with Shock Trooper).

    A goliath could have all the feats and abilities for this combo as early as level six, assuming they were all fighter levels.

    @V aha. Right, level 8, my bad. :P
    Last edited by Lemur; 2008-01-19 at 03:10 AM.

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    The feat's not the same. It allows you to initiate a bull rush whenever you hit; no Fort save, just the usual opposed Strength check. You have to be Large (or have the powerful build quality) to qualify.

    I think the knockback magic weapon property might have originally been in Complete Arcane.

    Edit- You give up 2 feats for the dungeoncrasher variant, so the earliest it would have been available for a goliath would be level 8. Since that was the party level, that sounds about right.
    Last edited by The_Snark; 2008-01-19 at 03:02 AM.
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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Quote Originally Posted by rtg0922 View Post
    I'm not sure where it's originally from, but the MIC lists Knockback as a +1 enhancement that lets you force an opponent your size or smaller back 5 feet (Fort negates) 3/day.
    The brutal surge ability (+1) is better if you want to mimic the Knockback feat. It only works Con+1 times per day, but in return it's a proper bull rush (except you don't move) and you get a +2 bonus on the check if you're wielding a two-handed weapon.

    I have to warn against the Dungeon Crasher/Knockback combo though. It can be brutally effective under the right circumstances, but the dice rolling can slow down play.

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    The dice rolling wouldn't be that onerous, would it? Damage as usual, one roll to bullrush the guy, roll some more damage if he hits a wall.

    Seems simple enough. It's not like it's a grappling build, or something.
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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Quote Originally Posted by dyslexicfaser View Post
    The dice rolling wouldn't be that onerous, would it? Damage as usual, one roll to bullrush the guy, roll some more damage if he hits a wall.
    The DM also has to look up the opponent's bull rush modifier and roll that. But no, it's not that onerous, just an extra annoyance. Throw in Improved Trip and it gets worse.

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Quote Originally Posted by The_Snark View Post
    The feat's not the same. It allows you to initiate a bull rush whenever you hit; no Fort save, just the usual opposed Strength check. You have to be Large (or have the powerful build quality) to qualify.

    I think the knockback magic weapon property might have originally been in Complete Arcane.

    Edit- You give up 2 feats for the dungeoncrasher variant, so the earliest it would have been available for a goliath would be level 8. Since that was the party level, that sounds about right.
    Powerful Build? Hence only Goliaths get it?

    Can you post the build? A level 8 goliath has...8 feats I think? Is that enough? She seemed rather proficient with the spiked chain, so she must've spent a feat on that as well.

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Well, half-giants also qualify, or any Large race (ogres, giants and such). But it was given in the same book as the goliath, so it was probably written with them in mind.

    Build: Goliath fighter 9

    1: Power Attack
    1F: Improved Bull Rush
    2F: Dungeoncrasher feature (replaces bonus feat)
    3: Knockback
    4F: Exotic Weapon Proficiency (spiked chain)
    6: Shock Trooper
    6F: Dungeoncrasher feature (replaces bonus feat)
    8F: Combat Expertise
    9: Improved Trip

    So, 9 feats. I'd forgotten about the spiked chain, which isn't strictly necessary to the build (although the reach helps you bull rush them multiple times). Looks like it was at least an enemy that was higher level than you.
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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    but doesnt goliat require a level as well? that would make this guy a challenge rating 10.
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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Quote Originally Posted by ZekeArgo View Post
    Bah and Feh. When in reference to a DM kicking players butts with crazy tactics, the only Kobolds that could possibly be referenced are TUCKER'S.
    You are correct.

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    but doesnt goliat require a level as well? that would make this guy a challenge rating 10.
    CR 10 is an acceptable CR to throw against an EL 8 party, especially if it's supposed to be a challenging encounter.


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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Quote Originally Posted by Behold_the_Void View Post
    CR 10 is an acceptable CR to throw against an EL 8 party, especially if it's supposed to be a challenging encounter.
    Funny thing is, one player started complaining about how Fighters are overpowered.

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Sounds like the DM was wondering how you guys would do against something you were weak against: a kick down the door type fighter. Compared to an unoptimized paladin, cleric, sorceror, and beguiler a fighter massively optimized to destroy casters would be a problem. Add in a decent wisdom and a good cloak of resistance, his will save wouldn't be that horrible.

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Quote Originally Posted by lord_khaine View Post
    but doesnt goliat require a level as well? that would make this guy a challenge rating 10.
    Sounds about right for a Boss Fight!

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    Default Re: What the heck did she do? Crazy Goliath maims adventuring party.

    Hmm, I didn't get any indication that the Goliath was built as anti-caster, although she certainly could've killed them easier, since the casters have lower HP and lower AC. It was just overall optimized perhaps.

    And 2 ECL higher. Or more.

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