Yet another mana system

[magic_unlocked]

Sooo.... i was looking at the SP system in UA and i saw that level 20 sorcerers only get +17 more mana than level 20 clerics, druids and wizards. That translates into +1 more 9th-level spell. An under powerment if there ever was one.

So I devised my own, znd here it is. With some feats as well.

What does the Playground think?

Spoiler

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Mana Point cost is equal to the Spell Level of the spell being cast. If it is modified by a metamagic feat, it uses the adjusted spell level. 0-level spells are usable a number of times per day equal to 3 + ½ class level + you permanent relevant caster modifier, after this limit; however, 0-level spells cost 1 mana point.

Base Mana Points by Class and Level
{table]Level|Bard|Cleric*|Druid|Paladin|Ranger|Sorcerer|W izard
1|-|1 + 1|1|-|-|3|1
2|0|2 + 1|2|-|-|4|2
3|1|4 + 3|4|-|-|5|4
4|2|7 + 3|7|0|0|12|7
5|5|10 + 6|10|0|0|14|10
6|7|15 + 6|15|1|1|25|15
7|7|20 + 10|20|1|1|30|20
8|12|27 + 10|27|1|1|45|27
9|15|34 + 15|34|1|1|52|34
10|15|43 + 15|43|3|3|71|43
11|22|53 + 21|53|3|3|80|52
12|26|64 + 21|64|6|6|103|67
13|26|77 + 28|77|6|6|114|79
14|35|90 + 28|90|6|6|141|86
15|41|103 + 36|103|11|11|154|100
16|43|121 + 36|121|13|13|185|109
17|57|140 + 45|140|16|16|200|125
18|67|157 + 45|157|17|17|235|154
19|78|173 + 45|173|26|26|252|171|
20|84|190 + 45|190|30|30|270|180|[/table]
*The +X in the Cleric column represents the cleric's reserve of a Domain Mana pool. This Pool of mana can only be used to cast domain spells. A cleric can cast any of their domain spells spontaneously without preparing them ahead of time. A cleric also gains +1 domain mana point per domain they have.

Bonus Mana Points by Maximum Spell Level
{table]Score|0|1st|2nd|3rd|4th|5th|6th|7th|8th|9th
12-13|--|1|1|1|1|1|1|1|1|1
14-15|--|1|3|3|3|3|3|3|3|3
16-17|--|1|3|6|6|6|6|6|6|6
18-19|--|1|3|6|10|10|10|10|10|10
20-21|--|2|5|8|12|17|17|17|17|17
22-23|--|2|6|9|13|18|24|24|24|24
24-25|--|2|6|12|16|21|27|34|34|34
26-27|--|2|6|12|20|25|31|38|46|46
28-29|--|3|7|13|21|31|37|44|52|61
30-31|--|3|9|15|23|33|45|52|60|69
32-33|--|3|9|18|26|36|48|62|70|79
34-35|--|3|9|18|30|40|52|66|82|91
36-37|--|4|10|19|31|43|55|69|85|103
38-39|--|4|12|21|33|48|66|80|96|114
40-41|--|4|12|24|36|51|69|90|106|124
42-43|--|4|12|24|40|55|73|94|118|136
44-45|--|5|13|25|41|61|79|100|124|151[/table]

Mana Point-Based Feats:

Focused [general]
Prerequisite: Caster Level 1st (class to be chosen)
Benefit: You gain +1 Mana Point per class level.

Divine Focus [general]
Prerequisite: Divine caster with domain spells (class to be chosen)
Benefit: You gain +1 Domain Mana Point class per level.

Mana Conversion [general]
Prerequisites: Caster level 1, Iron Will, Concentration 4 Ranks, Con 13, Cha 13
Benefit: You can sacrifice 1 point of constitution in order to gain 1 mana point for 1 round as a free action on your turn. If you have a domain mana pool, it takes 2 points of constitution to gain 1 domain mana point. This constitution loss can only be regained through natural healing, any other means to heal this damage automatically fail.
Special: There is no set limit to the amount of mana points you can gain from this. So, if you sacrifice 2 points of constitution, you gain +2 mana points.

Mana Guard [general]
Prerequisite: Iron Will, Concentration 8 Ranks, Knowledge (Arcana) 8 ranks, survival 4 ranks, Caster Level 5
Benefit: In the event that you take damage from any source, you can instead reduce that amount, or portion thereof, of damage from your mana pool as a free action.
Special: If you allocate all damage to your mana pool, you do not need to make a concentration check.

Mana Surge [general]
Prerequisite: Focus (class to be chosen), Caster Level 5, Cha 15
Benefit: At the cost of +3 Mana Points, you fully raise your caster level for 1 round by +1. You can raise your caster in this way no more than +5 (which costs a total of +15 Mana Points). However, you must still follow the spell’s normal rules such as damage cap limit.
Special: If you have a domain mana pool, you can only use your domain mana pool to provide a bonus to caster level for a domain spell.

Mana Shield [general]
Prerequisite: Improved Initiative, Wis 15, Caster Level 1
Benefit: As an immediate action, you can expend a number of mana points to gain a deflection bonus to your Armor Class that stacks with all others, including other deflection bonuses, for the duration of the action that this feat was used on. The number of mana points you can expend is equal to ½ your caster level, minimum 1. For example, a cleric with this feat could activate this feat in response to an incoming attack, but only against that one particular attack.

Greater Mana Surge [general]
Prerequisite: Mana Surge, Focus (class to be chosen), Caster level 10, Cha 17
Benefit: There is no cap for the amount you can raise your caster level. However, for every caster level you raise above +5, you are fatigued for an equal number of rounds. For example, a sorcerer that raises his caster level by +6, is now fatigued for 1 round, on the round after he raised his caster level. You still follow the normal rules from Mana Surge.

----
Edit 1.0: Fixed Mana Conversion.

[Cormac]

doing the bonus mana points by maximum spell level available is a good move. however, I think that being able to cast a ton of 9th level spells is way more powerful than being able to cast a few 9th level and a ton of lower level spells. If I am right, without bonus mana points from stats a 20th level wizard would already be able to cast 20 9th level spells. that seems like a lot. Thus, i would give them, lower mana points myself, especially since i think spell casters need to be made a little less powerful rather than vice versa.

[magic_unlocked]

I see. Well, what i was trying to do was maintain a casting-power balance. Which, is what i succeeded in doing. We all agree [i think] that a sorcerer should be the spellslinging powerhouse. The UA-version failed to do that.

[Kedami]

I don't like what you've done with the Wizard. The spoiler contains my problems with your system, so if you don't like this kind of criticism, then don't open it.

Spoiler

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The Wizard now has less than the Druid (who can Wild Shape and has an Animal Companion)... It now has less than the Cleric (who can Turn Undead).

I'm a big fan of Wizards, and you've just made them less battle-worthy. I can see that you've tried to mirror the fact that they gain less spells per day than other casters, but this alone would drive me away from using this system.

I don't think free feats that rely on your magic are going to be too useful in this system, but that would make the Scribe Scroll and Craft Wand feats be that much more alluring I suppose... But again, the Druid and Cleric's specials don't require them to spend XP.

It's a good system other than that. I like the seperate reserve of points for Domain spells. There are a lot of feats dealing with these points. If you are a fan of psionics you should try to convert them to work with it a well.

On a side note, I usually use the UA version.

[magic_unlocked]

What i did here was a simple add-up of all the spell slots that the classes get. If you look at the slots, druids and clerics do get more spells than wizards. What I was doing was trying to get each class more balanced to the amount of casting it can do. I hope that makes sense.

[Kedami]

I get what you were trying to do.

I was thinking after I posted that is you did something for specialists then it might even thigns out... After all, they basically get the extra slot like a divine caster.

I actually think my previous post came across as too angry, even though I was just mildly annoyed.

[TheOOB]

The only way a mana system will ever work is if you completely redesign the entire spell system from the ground up, with each individual spell designed for the mana system. The spells, as they are, barely work with the current system and they where designed for it.

[pseudovere]

Love the concept, BUT:

Level one or higher cleric, w/ mana conversion and cure light wounds.

That's pretty broken, seeing as you get unlimited mana, and at first level nonetheless...

Maybe use con drain (get one mana per caster level per con spent) that can't be restored by any means except resting 8 hours to get mana back, at which point you gain back all of the con you paid.

That feels horribly worded, but hopefully it made sense.

[magic_unlocked]

Love the concept, BUT:

Level one or higher cleric, w/ mana conversion and cure light wounds.

That's pretty broken, seeing as you get unlimited mana, and at first level nonetheless...

Maybe use con drain (get one mana per caster level per con spent) that can't be restored by any means except resting 8 hours to get mana back, at which point you gain back all of the con you paid.

That feels horribly worded, but hopefully it made sense.

I didn't really think about the lower-level spells when I made that. I was designing it to be for higher-level spells. So... what if I upped the pre reqs? CL 5, Concentration 8 ranks, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Con 15, Cha 13

That seem right?

[pseudovere]

I didn't really think about the lower-level spells when I made that. I was designing it to be for higher-level spells. So... what if I upped the pre reqs? CL 5, Concentration 8 ranks, Iron Will, Great Fortitude, Con 15, Cha 13

That seem right?

I used cure light wounds as an example. The mana system uses 1=1st level, 3=2nd level, 5=3rd, 7=4th, 9=5th, 11=6th, 13=7th, 15=8th, 17=9th, right?

this means that if a 17th level cleric is capable of healing more than 34 hp in one round (mass heal=at least 170, plus everybody within 30 ft), they can easily take their damage in order to heal themselves.

and its not like it depends on just one spell either: all the cure spells heal 1 damage per level, minimum so, say a 5th level caster (3rd level spell) takes 10 dmg, heals 5 plus the dice roll, (minimum3 with cure serious, but on average 19), so granted, they would not have a 100 percent chance of automatically healing themselves, but it seriously leans in their favor.

Of course you don't have to cast your highest level spell. What's stopping a 20th level cleric from casting cure light wounds? I would do it anyway if I could get infinite mana from it.

Any divine spellcaster/ or bard with that feat, while they can no longer use it at first level, can still abuse it to a ridiculous extent. It's not fixable though. You need to make it something that spells cannot restore.

You would have to make this spell do a humongous amount of damage per point to abuse mass heal abuse at 25th level (about 15, and yes, I know I'm going into epic, but nothing should ever give you infinite mana, even in epic) so I don't think normal damage will cut it (who in their right mind would take 15 damage to cast a magic missile, or 75 damage for a fireball?).

I, personally, would use temporary, unrecoverable ability drain, so as to avoid abilities. Also, temporary, unrecoverable negative levels that don't result in level loss might also work, now that you can't have 1st level characters instantly killing themselves.

I apologize for attacking this one issue, and not giving enough time to complement you on the rest of it. This is the ONLY thing wrong with what you have here. Once you fix the cure abuse, this thing will be beautiful.

[Caracol]

I think that Mana could be a good addition to the game, even though it doesn't match well with the concept of all the arcane spontaneous spellcasters, the only ones that could have a "spirit", (a wizards study his spells, a cleric ask for them from his deity, a druid gets his force from his bond with nature).
But making different Mana values causes disparities between the classes and a bit of confusion. So, what's the solution?
Mana potions. In the 3.0 Dnd Diablo II setting, there were mana potion that restored spells levels istead of mana points. Example: a light mana potion costs 50 gold and restores up to 1 spell level, a super mana potion costs 500 gold and restores up to 8 spell levels. Drink a couple of these and you can cast a 9th spell and a 7th spell you have already used.
So, stick with the old classes and use potion.

[Vadin]

Or...just use psionics, because its the same thing, only built to be balanced with just such a setup (unlike the vancian casters)...

[magic_unlocked]

I'll have to take another look at the Psionics system. I've tried, but i I just don't get it fer some reason. And I'll go fice the conversion to make it temporary constitution damage that can only be healed by resting.

[Draz74]

I'll have to take another look at the Psionics system. I've tried, but i I just don't get it fer some reason.

Yeah, look again. The Psionics system is pretty much the spell point system, but with "all the spells re-designed to work with a points system" like TheOOB was saying.

Plus a lot of flavor -- 40% cool, 60% too-weird -- which you can ignore without much problem.

[Cormac]

I agree, the best way to make a mana system is to call psionics wizards and call psi points mana (and rename a few other things). I may actually do this in a campaign, as the concepts of psionics has always bothered me, but they play really well.

[magic_unlocked]

That may actually work. I'lll keep that in mind. So, essentially, Psion points would be to the wizard and Wilder points would be to the sorcerer, right?

If that is true, then what would cleric/druid points be? And i think I would need to redo their Domain system. Similiar to how it is here, but I would need to increase the mana alloted.