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    MonkGuy

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    Default White Raven Hammer and Combat Rhytm, does it work?

    If you use Combat Rhytm (Stormguard Warrior Feat) to forgo the damage of the White Raven Hammer melee attack using combat rhytm, does the non damage effect of the maneuver still aply, thus making it a touch attack no-save stun effect?

    I'm asking this because the feat says 'these touch attack deals no damage', not specifying anything about non-damaging effects of the attack, and I've found no entry that says WRH doesn't work if it causes no damage. Discuss.
    Last edited by FinalJustice; 2008-01-23 at 11:00 AM.
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    Lord Lorac Silvanos's Avatar

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    Default Re: White Raven Hammer and Combat Rhytm, does it work?

    The maneuver is not a "normal melee attack" and if you are using Combat Rhytm you are replacing normal attacks with touch attacks, not turning strikes into touch attacks.
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: White Raven Hammer and Combat Rhytm, does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Lord_Silvanos View Post
    The maneuver is not a "normal melee attack" and if you are using Combat Rhytm you are replacing normal attacks with touch attacks, not turning strikes into touch attacks.
    That's disingenuous, innit, guvnah? A Strike is just a kind of maneuver, a kind that involves (at least) one melee attack.

    The problem is that the Strike requires an attack, not a touch attack. These are not interchangeable. So you wouldn't get the effect of the strike if you did that, because you wouldn't be making an attack, you'd be making a touch attack.

    Besides, White Raven Hammer specifies an attack that "deals an extra 6d6 points of damage and stuns your opponent for one round". Negating the extra 6d6 points of damage would likewise negate the stun, I'd say.

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    Fax Celestis's Avatar

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    Default Re: White Raven Hammer and Combat Rhytm, does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Besides, White Raven Hammer specifies an attack that "deals an extra 6d6 points of damage and stuns your opponent for one round". Negating the extra 6d6 points of damage would likewise negate the stun, I'd say.
    That's generally how it works, and is also supported by the fact that several maneuvers include saving throws--and when the save is made, they explicitly state that "$Damage is still caused, but $Side_Effect is negated." Since they have to spell it out, I'd say that in other cases negating the damage negates the rest of the effects.

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    Lord Lorac Silvanos's Avatar

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    Default Re: White Raven Hammer and Combat Rhytm, does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    That's disingenuous, innit, guvnah? A Strike is just a kind of maneuver, a kind that involves (at least) one melee attack.
    Hardly, I was quoting from the description of Combat Rhytm.

    The problem is that the Strike requires an attack, not a touch attack. These are not interchangeable. So you wouldn't get the effect of the strike if you did that, because you wouldn't be making an attack, you'd be making a touch attack.
    A touch attack is also a kind of attack. You are just making this up because you know the answer to the question asked.

    The strike requires a standard action, as part of that you are making an attack (unspecific).

    The answer could probably have been more clear but I already answered the OP in the Q&A thread.
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    AssassinGuy

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    Default Re: White Raven Hammer and Combat Rhytm, does it work?

    Attack is to touch attack as damage is to ability damage. Not the same thing. (Or would you say that, for example, a factotum can spend an IP to get +INT ability damage on a spell that deals it?)

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    Lord Lorac Silvanos's Avatar

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    Default Re: White Raven Hammer and Combat Rhytm, does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Reel On, Love View Post
    Attack is to touch attack as damage is to ability damage. Not the same thing. (Or would you say that, for example, a factotum can spend an IP to get +INT ability damage on a spell that deals it?)
    You are stretching it a bit. I never claimed that they were the same thing.

    The whole point of the OP's question was that it allows you to make a touch attack where a melee attack would be needed.
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    Default Re: White Raven Hammer and Combat Rhytm, does it work?

    Silvanos is correct.

    Also, I think it was written that way on purpose. It's quite easy to get access to touch attacks via a variety of means. Combining them with ToB Strikes would make encounter balance a retardly difficult job for a DM.

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    Default Re: White Raven Hammer and Combat Rhytm, does it work?

    Quote Originally Posted by Person_Man View Post
    Silvanos is correct.

    Also, I think it was written that way on purpose. It's quite easy to get access to touch attacks via a variety of means. Combining them with ToB Strikes would make encounter balance a retardly difficult job for a DM.
    Just to interject--most of these still work with strikes. For example, Deep Impact just resolves the attack *as* a touch attack (meaning Psychic Warrior 2, picking up Psionic Weapon and Psionic Meditation, then taking Deep Impact normally, into, say, Warblade makes for good times).

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    MonkGuy

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    Default Re: White Raven Hammer and Combat Rhytm, does it work?

    Well, I know it doesn't match the fluff description, but when it comes to crunch, it seems possible. The maneuver says you do a attack and that your attack deals an extra 6d6 points of damage AND stun, not 'deals 6d6 of damage which stuns', I can argue that it's the attack that stuns, not the extra damage. In the range entry, it says it's a melee attack, but the feats says you can make melee touch attacks in place of those, and these attacks deal no damage, as the feats says. Melee touch attacks are a kind of melee attack, a different type, but still a melee attack.

    If I take your interpretations as correct, does it mean you can't apply Combat Rhythm while using Avalanche of Blades?
    In two seconds I will hit the ground
    A moment stretched out over years
    And my eyes will flicker and then something has changed
    An empty cage, a crimson bud, a street of blood
    A city rose sprung out to greet the rain


    PoS: Enter Rain

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