Tome of Battle Question

[Zeiss]

Tome of Battle says that your initiator level for a class is the amount of levels in that class, + 1/2 of the levels you have in other classes. So a 7 Crusader/5 Swordsage would be a 9th level crusader as far as initiator level is concerned.

It also says that the other classes don't have to be martial adepts for them to stack like that.

So, what keeps a 4th level fighter, who takes his 5th character level as a Crusader/Warblade/Swordsage, from selecting all 2nd level manuevers and stances, since his initiator level would be 3rd, giving him the access.

Or is it just a loophole?

[blue_fenix]

This is actually a completely valid build. There's a reason, though, why they made a lot of higher level manuevers have prerequisites of lower-level maneuvers known. Unfortunately, the prerequisite system is fairly inconsistent, but the point gets made. The reason for the 1/2 initiator level stacking is so someone doesn't get stuck with only the lowest and least useful maneuvers just because they multiclassed. It's actually a really nice way to fix the "never lose caster levels" problem that initiator levels would otherwise be analogous to.

[Draz74]

Yeah, mostly this was an intentional loophole, meant to be used.

I did hear something, though, about an errata that says that your first stance (not other maneuvers) has to be a first-level stance, or something like that. Anyone care to confirm or clarify this?

[Douglas]

It's not errata, it's just how the text of the classes are written. Each of the three base classes starts the Stances Known entry with "You begin play with knowledge of one 1st-level stance..."

[Counterspin]

It's not a loophole, it's intentional.

[Rad]

Personally, I like the idea very much; this could be the basis for other classes' abilities as well and eventually lead to better multiclassing rules.
Now "real" multiclass characters (as in Wizard X/Rogue Y) suck at both roles; having their abilities progress, even if at a lower pace, would be a better and more elegant way than the various dual progression PrC (Arcane Trickster, Eldritch Knight, Mystic Theurge, ...) and hybrid base classes that are now needed to make the thing work.
Incidentally, the dual PrC's don't do it quite well. Ever tried to play an Arcane Trickster? Good luck with it. Particularly if you wanted to begin it as a rogue that picks magic along the way.

[Frosty]

That's why you go into Unseen Seer. they're much better at being a rogue/caster mix. Or, go Beguiler.

[Irreverent Fool]

I think it's been summed up already, but to answer directly:

Tome of Battle says that your initiator level for a class is the amount of levels in that class, + 1/2 of the levels you have in other classes. So a 7 Crusader/5 Swordsage would be a 9th level crusader as far as initiator level is concerned.

It also says that the other classes don't have to be martial adepts for them to stack like that.

This is correct. A 7 Crusader/5 Swordsage would have an effective IL of 9 for his Crusader maneuvers and stances and an IL of 8 for his Swordsage maneuvers and stances.

Spoiler

Show

From the Tome of Battle p.39
If you are a multiclass martial adept...determine your IL by adding together your level in that class +1/2 your levels in all other classes...a 7th-level crusader/5th level swordsage has an initator level of 9th for determining the highest level maneuvers he can take as a crusader.

So, what keeps a 4th level fighter, who takes his 5th character level as a Crusader/Warblade/Swordsage, from selecting all 2nd level manuevers and stances, since his initiator level would be 3rd, giving him the access.

As was stated, the classes specifically state that they begin with only 1st-level maneuvers and stances, though upon attaining higher levels they can swap these out for higher-level ones based on their IL. Note that a character taking the 'martial adept' feat is not restricted in this way. So a 10th-level Fighter can take a 3rd-level maneuver if he takes the feat because he has an effective IL of 5.

Nothing at all, apparently. Which is good news.

[Fax Celestis]

As was stated, the classes specifically state that they begin with only 1st-level maneuvers and stances, though upon attaining higher levels they can swap these out for higher-level ones based on their IL. Note that a character taking the 'martial adept' feat is not restricted in this way. So Mr. 10th-level Fighter can take a 3rd-level maneuver if he takes the feat because he has an effective IL of 5.

Incorrect. Only stances specify first-level only. Maneuvers have no such indication.

[Wordmiser]

That's why you go into Unseen Seer. they're much better at being a rogue/caster mix. Or, go Beguiler.

Yes, there's already a solution, but Rad's idea is much more elegant.

I've used that with Psionics (I disallow the PHB magic system; it's a lot easier than banning a long list of specific spells) since I got my hands on the Tome of Battle. It's worked smoothly and it's reduced my players' obsession with "No Lost Caster Levels." All in all, I give this method a thumbs-up (though it would be clunkier with Arcane and Divine spellcasting).

[ChaosDefender24]

Absolutely nothing him is stopping him from jumping into the second-level manuevers. At least he isn't using bloodlines

[Jerthanis]

I feel like they should have displayed the maneuvers at each level in terms of their prerequisites in addition to the level of the individual maneuver. I've been trying to come up with a visual representation of how the prerequisites work for each school, but it's actually a pretty difficult organizational task.

My first instinct is to put the different tiers of maneuvers in a system of concentric circles, narrowing down from the many maneuvers with no prerequisite of other maneuvers listed on the outside, narrowing down to the one in the very middle that requires 4 or 5 other maneuvers from that school. Thus, with that system, you could check yourself off rather quickly on prerequisites to make sure you don't drop your last 1st tier maneuver. Unfortunately, spatially, this system has its problems. For Diamond Mind, which has almost a dozen maneuvers with no prerequisite maneuvers scattered all over its 9 levels, it works perfectly. However, Tiger Claw, which has the overwhelming majority of its maneuvers require 2 other Tiger Claw maneuvers, is a lot harder to write up like this on a single sheet of paper. After that I tried a flowchart, but that didn't work even a little bit.

Right now I'm working on a "Ladder" structure, to better order the various tiers, and allowing you to "plug in" the lower tier maneuvers visually as rungs that allow them to reach the next tier. When I'm satisfied with it actually being a useful tool, I'll post it on this forum, in case anyone is like me, and is a visual learner.

Also, the relative ease of multiclassing is definately intentional, and as far as I'm concerned, a very good idea. The way multiclassing generally works is that you are terrible at both roles for non-synergistic class combinations, or are cherry picking for the few class features from each class you can attain in order to boost the few things you do well. Having an ability to multiclass without losing absolutely everything you would've gained is one of the many reasons I love the Tome of Battle.

[Tokiko Mima]

Personally, if I was allowed to retcon a rule in D&D, I would make spells per level granted like manuevers are. A 14th level human fighter who considers taking a wizard level shouldn't be faced with nothing but first level spells that are worthless to him at ECL 15. It would be much better if instead he had spells like an 8th level wizard. That way the pure wizard still has a huge advantage (namely, 8th level spells instead of 4th level ones) in spell craft, while the fighter/wizard now has a source of magical prowess as well as his physical skills to rely on.

It'd probably complicate character creation and leveling, though.

[TheOOB]

Personally, if I was allowed to retcon a rule in D&D, I would make spells per level granted like manuevers are. A 14th level human fighter who considers taking a wizard level shouldn't be faced with nothing but first level spells that are worthless to him at ECL 15. It would be much better if instead he had spells like an 8th level wizard. That way the pure wizard still has a huge advantage (namely, 8th level spells instead of 4th level ones) in spell craft, while the fighter/wizard now has a source of magical prowess as well as his physical skills to rely on.

It'd probably complicate character creation and leveling, though.

Actually, they've fairly strongly implied thats how things are going to work in 4e. One of the key things they tried to do in ToB is to make the classes multiclass well, which lets face it, only the fighter and rogue did (all the other classes either lost too much from multiclassing, or lost too little). A martial adept who takes a couple levels in another class certainly sacrifices some of their ability in their field, they get less manuvers, stances, and don't get their capstone, but they can jump back into their class at any time and still gain useful abilities. On the other hand, another class can jump into a martial adept any time and get useful relevant abilities with only a couple levels at any level.