94 parson's Klog pg 10

[fendrin]

Caledonian, you make such bizarre posts. I remember you because you changed your sig to it's current status right after we argued about whether Miko was Chaotic good or Lawful evil.

"Some must be sacrificed so that all can be saved?"

What is it that convinces people to blend together the polar opposites of fatalism and hope? One or the other must be a lie. Or to be more specific: one or the other must be chosen. They are exclusive and cannot coexist. Parson is not a raging nutcase, so he's not going to sacrifice anyone for the greater good.

Caledonian was quoting Babylon 5. In this case it's more a discussion of self-sacrifice to save others.

[hajo]

"I gotta give Sizemore his orders."
Interesting phrase, given what came before....

Sizemore surely has no experience at fighting or leading, and we have seen him only talking with Parson about the maze/trap/defense-aspect of the underground tunnels.
So I guess the above quote is not related to free will/duty/etc., Sizemore just needs to be given detailed battle-instructions.

[Arkenputtyknife]

(note that Jetstone seems to be the only human kingdom involved in the coalition; the other factions seems to be city-less creatures).

Uh — eh — what? There's nothing on that page that suggests any such thing. The first half is about “some sides” in general, and GK in particular, while the second half says nothing about the Jetstone coalition's composition. It says the Gobwins broke their alliance but says nothing about with whom they were allied. What did I miss?

[fendrin]

Sizemore surely has no experience at fighting or leading, and we have seen him only talking with Parson about the maze/trap/defense-aspect of the underground tunnels.
So I guess the above quote is not related to free will/duty/etc., Sizemore just needs to be given detailed battle-instructions.

I interpreted it as Parson convincing himself up to do something he doesn't want to. Especially considering the first couple paragraphs. I think Parson was writing this klog entry as procrastination.

[Emo Samurai]

Caledonian, you make such bizarre posts. I remember you because you changed your sig to it's current status right after we argued about whether Miko was Chaotic good or Lawful evil.

"Some must be sacrificed so that all can be saved?"

What is it that convinces people to blend together the polar opposites of fatalism and hope? One or the other must be a lie. Or to be more specific: one or the other must be chosen. They are exclusive and cannot coexist. Parson is not a raging nutcase, so he's not going to sacrifice anyone for the greater good.

That quote doesn't have much hope in it, actually. Any hope is the result of sophistry that only one of the most advanced Elder Races in the galaxy would have the balls to recite with a straight face.

And I'm starting to think that "loyalty" is not even a stat, that's why it's unknowable. Initiative can be simulated by a powerful computer, as can obedience. Loyalty, however, is the product of true free will.

[Pyrian]

What did I miss?

The part where elves and marbits seem to be the bulk of Ansom's alliance, I'm guessing?

[fendrin]

Uh — eh — what? There's nothing on that page that suggests any such thing. The first half is about “some sides” in general, and GK in particular, while the second half says nothing about the Jetstone coalition's composition. It says the Gobwins broke their alliance but says nothing about with whom they were allied. What did I miss?

It also mentions the marbits and elves. We have only heard of four parts to the coalition: Jetstone, the marbits, the various elves, and Jillian.

The marbits and elves don't have cities, and Jillian's a mercenary. Who do you think is going to get GK if the coalition wins?

[Arkenputtyknife]

The part where elves and marbits seem to be the bulk of Ansom's alliance, I'm guessing?

It also mentions the marbits and elves. We have only heard of four parts to the coalition: Jetstone, the marbits, the various elves, and Jillian.

But it's a stonking huge coalition, we've only seen parts of it, we know there are other human kingdoms out there, there's nothing in the referenced page that says there are only non-human allies, the page states explicitly that it is only referring to “some sides”, and look at all the weasel phrases in the arguments: “seem to be”, “bulk of”, “have only heard of“. It's a stretch to go from all this to the given conclusion.

You may be right. There may only be non-human allies. But the argument needs better evidence than this.

[fendrin]

You may be right. There may only be non-human allies. But the argument needs better evidence than this.

That's why I said potential territorial expansion.

[Tarnace]

Well I hate to say it but I really enjoyed this klog- at least a little bit more then the others. Still I belive that continuing the story would have been a lot more fruitfull since you keep going back and leading us on with more and more filler fluff instead of true plot points. It wouldn't be as bad if two times a week really meant two times a week but untill then I reserve my judgement.

[Pyrian]

...look at all the weasel phrases in the arguments: “seem to be”,... “bulk of”, “have only heard of“. It's a stretch to go from all this to the given conclusion.

"Seems to be" wasn't the argument, it was the conclusion. Substantial evidence in favor and little or no evidence against is more than enough for "seems to be". That being said, I will submit Ansom's battle plan, which involves specific roles for the various members of the alliance - marbits, seige, and several varieties of elves. Not quite sure where the heavies fit in, but they're not human, either, so...

http://www.giantitp.com/comics/erf0021.html

[teratorn]

You may be right. There may only be non-human allies. But the argument needs better evidence than this.

In this strip there is one superfluous elf warlord, a marbit warlord, and two or three that look like humans warlords (the other elves we've seen have large ears pointing to the sides). There are no radishes on these, so they are not Jetstone.

EDIT: We see them again here, they are clearly human and non-Jetstone.

[Caledonian]

If Parson fails to commit everything he can to the defense of Gobwin Knob, it will fall, and almost certainly everyone in it will be slain. Holding back in a futile attempt to spare the people he cares about harm will only ensure their destruction.

So if he has to order some of his forces into certain death, or great peril, to preserve the safety of the rest, or tip the odds even slightly in their favor... he'll do so. No matter how much it hurts. Because that's what a good commander has to do.

Some must be sacrificed...

[Krelon]

All I can say is that Sizemore leading troops is a very bad idea

[klaivu]

Parson needs to think things through more carefully:

Can't withhold information

Parson already knows from his first meeting with Stanley that he can tell a bald faced lie (see #20: "Where I'm from, the highest term of respect is. . .'tool.'") to Stanley without any consequences as long as Stanley doesn't catch on. Furthermore, Wanda pretty clearly knew that Parson was lying and didn't call it to Stanley's attention (though in her case she may have been able to rationalize it as being in Stanley's interest not to disband the warlord he just spent 350k schmuckers on). He's clearly subject to direct orders, but he seems to have a fair amount of leeway in other cases, for whatever reason.

In Parson's Klog #7, page 84, where the remaining forces of GK are listed, Parson is included as "Chief Warlord, level 2, special". I think the "special" bit implies that Parson might not be subject to all the rules and mechanics units must follow. He is from a world that operates on a different set of rules. He might be able to lie to his ruler. What other things could he do that other units can't?

[fendrin]

In this strip there is one superfluous elf warlord, a marbit warlord, and two or three that look like humans warlords (the other elves we've seen have large ears pointing to the sides). There are no radishes on these, so they are not Jetstone.

EDIT: We see them again here, they are clearly human and non-Jetstone.

You are assuming all Jetstones wear radishes. The only humans we know are Jetsones are Ansom, Webinar, and Dora.

Ansom is usually seen wearing radishes.
Webinar is always seen wearing radishes.
Dora is never seen wearing radishes.

[SteveMB]

You are assuming all Jetstones wear radishes. The only humans we know are Jetsones are Ansom, Webinar, and Dora.

Ansom is usually seen wearing radishes.
Webinar is always seen wearing radishes.
Dora is never seen wearing radishes.

It fits what we've seen of their personalities -- Ansom attaches great importance to royalty, and Webinar is stiff-necked (the whole Gump he's got stuck where most Jetstones have a stick reaches that high).

Note that the other human advisors at the table aren't wearing any crest, Jetstone or otherwise. (I think it's safe to assume that they're all nobles, serving in such a high capacity close to Ansom.) Apparently, they (like Vinny) just don't see the need.

[ralphmerridew]

And for the first time since the Donut of Doom Debacle, I think things are looking up for Parson. The lack of free will seems to be a mechanic that nobody really thinks that much about. Maybe he can come up with some sort of LogicBomb that can get the coalition to act irrationally.

Perhaps a maneuver that targets Ansom in particular with low chance of success might get coalition to ignore Ansom's orders to attack in favor of trying to protect Ansom because his orders might lead to his own destruction.

It won't do much; Ansom will probably figure out orders that aren't susceptible to that mechanic, but it could buy Parson a turn or two.

[Zeku]

Emo, loyalty could be the religion of Erfworld? And even disbanding could be based entirely in faith? Not knowing the exact mechanics of how things 'pop,' 'heal,' or 'disband,' it's still possible that these events are based partially on the assumptions and beliefs of the individual units.

[hajo]

All I can say is that Sizemore leading troops is a very bad idea

As was said at the top of the klog, using casters as leaders is too dangerous in general, and mostly useless.
But Sizemore gives a bonus to his golems, and only troops with leaders can choose if/when/whom to attack (otherwise, they have to auto-attack).
And when operating traps, you have to wait for the optimal time

So, Sizemore might not be a great leader, but definitely he fits this job.

[Caledonian]

It will be morning soon.

Time for one last Stupid Meal? It's traditional to offer them to the condemned.

[the_tick_rules]

this does kinda make sense if you think of erfworld as like a warcraft game. Do the units you make have a chnace to disobey your commands, no? sure erfworld has a bit more leeway but the basic principal remains true.

[teratorn]

Dora is never seen wearing radishes.

She's always shown very small, a radish would interfere with her "womanly attributes."

By the way, even Webinar can be found without a radish here (7th panel). I'm not sure this one made it to Erfworld bloopers thread.

Note that the other human advisors at the table aren't wearing any crest, Jetstone or otherwise. (I think it's safe to assume that they're all nobles, serving in such a high capacity close to Ansom.)

It's possible they are Jetstone, but from what I've seen from Jetstonians (Ansom and Webinar) it seems weird they don't display proudly the sacred radish.

Apparently, they (like Vinny) just don't see the need.

Vinny is not Jetstone.

Parson should force all his troops to use the hamster.

[rosebud]

A bit less fatalism by some here would be appreciated. He reaction to Misty already shows that he wants his forces to survive.

Given the twisty turns and passages, I'm not taking a battle or linear storyline for granted. One can, of course, speculate, but coarse assumptions are mere speculation.

Loved the WTB, of course.

Regarding the huge croackmancer bonus, it would seem useful if Wanda could back the warlords. That would give a combined stack and leadership bonus. If you have a situation like Thermopylae but without the traitors, one could potentially have a small but strong force hold off a much greater army at a choke point if Sizemore can set such a situation up. The problem, of course, then becomes the siege.

Given the Stanley wildcard, it's hard to say what will happen, though. If Stanley is captured, what happens to the city? Is there a need or point to take it by force if they can just get Stanley?

[fendrin]

Note that the other human advisors at the table aren't wearing any crest, Jetstone or otherwise. (I think it's safe to assume that they're all nobles, serving in such a high capacity close to Ansom.) Apparently, they (like Vinny) just don't see the need.

I don't think it's a good idea to assume anything.

They could be Jetstone units from other tribes, just as Wanda serves Stanley but isn't a Plaid.

[Vreejack]

Emo, loyalty could be the religion of Erfworld? And even disbanding could be based entirely in faith? Not knowing the exact mechanics of how things 'pop,' 'heal,' or 'disband,' it's still possible that these events are based partially on the assumptions and beliefs of the individual units.

It's been done before, but given the strict mechanics of this world I doubt it applies here. Note that Parson was literally forced to keep his mouth shut when most readers thought the Tool was simply being figurative. In other words, stuff works on Parson even when he had no expectation that it would or even that anything was supposed to happen. Parson is as far from being a member of the faithful as you can get but he is still forced to comply.

[Vreejack]

Emo, loyalty could be the religion of Erfworld? And even disbanding could be based entirely in faith? Not knowing the exact mechanics of how things 'pop,' 'heal,' or 'disband,' it's still possible that these events are based partially on the assumptions and beliefs of the individual units.

It's been done before, but given the strict mechanics of this world I doubt it applies here. Note that Parson was literally forced to keep his mouth shut when most readers thought the Tool was simply being figurative. In other words, stuff works on Parson even when he had no expectation that it would or even that anything was supposed to happen. Parson is as far from being a member of the faithful as you can get but he is still forced to comply.

[Emo Samurai]

Is there any way for a link to be made and then broken without breaking the casters? It seems kinda insane for something so valuable to be so permanently damaging without any true recourse. There has to be some way to do that; maybe that's what Parson's sword hilt is for.

And I think the fact that Parson gets "Last Starfighter" bonuses like Stupid Meal ultratoys that cost more than a boopton of troops makes this seem more and more like his own creation, real or not. Like, he wanted this place so much that he made it frakking real.

[ishnar]

Well I hate to say it but I really enjoyed this klog- at least a little bit more then the others. Still I belive that continuing the story would have been a lot more fruitfull since you keep going back and leading us on with more and more filler fluff instead of true plot points. It wouldn't be as bad if two times a week really meant two times a week but untill then I reserve my judgement.

I don't know what "two times a week" you might be referrig to.

[teratorn]

Regarding the huge croackmancer bonus, it would seem useful if Wanda could back the warlords.

Particularly if she can uncroak the Alliance's dead. Sizemore lets a bunch of marbits enter, blocks the tunnels and finishes them off. Parson then doubles his army. Same thing with the dead on the walls. As the battle progresses Parson's army may in fact grow.