94 parson's Klog pg 10

[Caledonian]

Is there any way for a link to be made and then broken without breaking the casters? It seems kinda insane for something so valuable to be so permanently damaging without any true recourse.

From a game-design perspective, that's because linking casters is so powerful. If there were no potential downsides, everyone would do it. As is, you can create a super-caster at the likely cost of losing the original units forever, and breaking the link isn't something that you'll do casually.

[The Old Hack]

It also mentions the marbits and elves. We have only heard of four parts to the coalition: Jetstone, the marbits, the various elves, and Jillian.

The marbits and elves don't have cities, and Jillian's a mercenary. Who do you think is going to get GK if the coalition wins?

If I may... we know of at least one more Side, namely the one Vinnie is from. We know that Vinnie is noble (as shown here), that he isn't a Jetstone (outright stated here where he addresses Ansom as 'you Jetstones'), and that cities ruled by Royalty are where nobles pop (as shown here.) Even if Nobles pop up in other ways or places, which is possible but probably rare if so, I can't really see them pop without a Side to be on.

[fendrin]

If I may... we know of at least one more Side, namely the one Vinnie is from. We know that Vinnie is noble (as shown here), that he isn't a Jetstone (outright stated here where he addresses Ansom as 'you Jetstones'), and that cities ruled by Royalty are where nobles pop (as shown here.) Even if Nobles pop up in other ways or places, which is possible but probably rare if so, I can't really see them pop without a Side to be on.

1. You are assuming Vinny is/was human, which is far from certain. Vinny's 'side' may be as capital-less as the marbits, elves, and gobwins.
2. There is a distinction to be made between Jetstone the side and Jetstone the tribe. Vinny may be a part of the Jetstone side, but not the Jetstone tribe. That would render "you Jetstones" to "you who are members of the Jetstone tribe".
3. I am presuming that royals, like other units, can change sides, which is yet another way a royal could end up being part of another tribe's 'side'.

And yes, I know the only thing I'm proving is the possibility that the Jetstone's are the only human 'side' involved in the coalition. I actually think it is unlikely, but we really don't have any strong evidence one way or the other.

Also, regardless of whether or not they are they are the only human 'side' in the coalition, by leading the coalition they are still the most likely to to claim GK after it falls.

Even if THAT's not the case, my other two points still stand about why taking out Stanley is a reasonable think for Ansom to choose to do to advance the cause of his king.

[teratorn]

2. There is a distinction to be made between Jetstone the side and Jetstone the tribe. Vinny may be a part of the Jetstone side, but not the Jetstone tribe. That would render "you Jetstones" to "you who are members of the Jetstone tribe".

He is not from the Jetstone side. In #34
"He attacked us, he hit the elves,..."
and then
"Sure, but what'd he do to Jetstone?"
The us is not Jetstone. But I also believe he is not human.

[The Old Hack]

1. You are assuming Vinny is/was human, which is far from certain. Vinny's 'side' may be as capital-less as the marbits, elves, and gobwins.

I am assuming nothing whatsoever about Vinnie's race. Too, I have seen nothing at all that stated that only humans could possess nobles and royalty.

2. There is a distinction to be made between Jetstone the side and Jetstone the tribe. Vinny may be a part of the Jetstone side, but not the Jetstone tribe. That would render "you Jetstones" to "you who are members of the Jetstone tribe".

Teratorn responded quite well to this one. Thank you, Tera.

And yes, I know the only thing I'm proving is the possibility that the Jetstone's are the only human 'side' involved in the coalition. I actually think it is unlikely, but we really don't have any strong evidence one way or the other.

I remain unconvinced of the notion that only humans may have cities.

[Hell Puppi]

I'd say it's pretty darn obvious that he's a vampire. I mean there's really no question about that. He has pointy teeth, bats flying about him, wears black and sleeps in a coffin.
The only real question would be was has he always been a vampire (born one of a family of vampire) or turned one (meaning was he human turned vampire) ?

My guess was that he was always one, of a family of vampire. He seems to have very different opinions than most 'human' royalty (but that's only a guess and my observation).

[Emo Samurai]

I'm just wondering: why did Stanley link up the Foolamancer? I never saw him fool anyone.

[Rutee]

A note on Vinnie's vampireness: He also seems to fly under his own power, and has obscene move without a Mount. (On the one hand, Ansom was flying on something that didn't look like a flying unit; On the other, Jillian and Webinar definitely seemed restricted by their mounts, hence the line "I'll be right here, with the fresher mounts!")

It may be an assumption, but it appears to be an entirely reasonable one.

[SteveMB]

I'm just wondering: why did Stanley link up the Foolamancer? I never saw him fool anyone.

When he was in the link, he was apparently providing the "graphical user interface" for the command and control center. Separated from the link, he's supposed to be veiling Stanley & Company... but the backlash he took from severing the link seems to have driven him insane.

[teratorn]

On the one hand, Ansom was flying on something that didn't look like a flying unit;

It's a flying carpet...

[Rutee]

It's a flying carpet...

...Oh hay, it is. I thought it was some sort of enchanted tree stump.

Either way, it doesn't appear to be a seperate unit, so maybe all Commanders are assumed to have flying mounts?

Prolly minimal performance, really.. Jillian expounds on why Doombats are pretty lame scouts, mentioning they have 22 Move. I don't know what that is compared to a ground unit, but perhaps keeping up with the Doombats isn't something terribly difficult.

Either that or it is in fact a seperate unit. A weak one, designed for the purpose of being a mount? Did anyone ever look into this?

[hajo]

I remain unconvinced of the notion that only humans may have cities.

If units are produced by cities only, and some sides have no cities, where do they get new units ?
Or are these all doomed species that have lost their last city ?

[teratorn]

Either that or it is in fact a seperate unit. A weak one, designed for the purpose of being a mount? Did anyone ever look into this?

I think it's some sort a magic item, not a unit. And it has a lot of move.

If units are produced by cities only, and some sides have no cities, where do they get new units ?
Or are these all doomed species that have lost their last city ?

We know the marbits were able to afford an extra squad of axemen. So they can buy new marbits.

[hajo]

Jillian expounds on why Doombats are pretty lame scouts, mentioning they have 22 Move.

Dwagons: 56 move
Griffon: 52 move
Orly: 44 move

I don't know what that is compared to a ground unit

Bogroll is the only ground-unit of whom we have seen stats yet, and he has zero move.

[Rutee]

If units are produced by cities only, and some sides have no cities, where do they get new units ?
Or are these all doomed species that have lost their last city ?

It's also possible that they follow different unit production rules, in addition to being able to buy them with gold.

[Krelon]

I am assuming nothing whatsoever about Vinnie's race. Too, I have seen nothing at all that stated that only humans could possess nobles and royalty.

...

I remain unconvinced of the notion that only humans may have cities.

I second that

1) Vinnie is probably not human but he is a noble. (And where in the first place did the idea that only humans can have nobility come from?)

2) In all strategy games that I know, if there are non-humans and there are cities, those non-humans have cities on their own. Why would one think that only humans possess cities, is this indicates somewhere? Gobwin Knob pretty much hints that the city originally belonged to a gobwin tribe (it's where they pop from). I do not see what difference it would make to pop under a gobwin king.

[Doctor Zuber]

Regarding the huge croackmancer bonus, it would seem useful if Wanda could back the warlords. That would give a combined stack and leadership bonus.

This is an excellent point really. We know there are two uncroaked warlords, Wanda, Maggie, Sizemore, and of course Parson remaining in the city. Not to mention primarily goblin, uncroaked, and golem units as the only troops remaining. Wanda + 2 Uncroaked Warlords is bound to be a pretty profound stack bonus for an uncroaked unit.

Another plus right now is the flying units are effectively out of the picture right now. This may be rather temporary unfortunatelly.

The main problem that remains is brutally simple. Parson cannot just hold in the tunnels with intact siege units left alive out there. If Parson cannot come up with a way to take out the remaining siege units the walls will start coming down and he will be quickly flanked. Power stacks alone will not save him here.

[SteveMB]

2) In all strategy games that I know, if there are non-humans and there are cities, those non-humans have cities on their own. Why would one think that only humans possess cities, is this indicates somewhere?

Sort of:

Some sides have no capital, no cities, no royals -- gobwins, marbits, witches, elf brands, others. Have their own treasuries, form long semi-permanent alliances.

While this listing doesn't specifically include all non-Men races, it does say that marbits, in particular, don't have cities. However, as noted above, they are produced somewhere (the extra gem from way back on page 1 that let them afford extra axemen). Perhaps sides with marbit allies produce them in their cities?

[Gez]

If units are produced by cities only, and some sides have no cities, where do they get new units ?
Or are these all doomed species that have lost their last city ?

Maybe they have creature dwellings. I've often compared Erfworld to HoMM. That would be another similarity.

[MuseUnchained]

If Parson fails to commit everything he can to the defense of Gobwin Knob, it will fall, and almost certainly everyone in it will be slain. Holding back in a futile attempt to spare the people he cares about harm will only ensure their destruction.

So if he has to order some of his forces into certain death, or great peril, to preserve the safety of the rest, or tip the odds even slightly in their favor... he'll do so. No matter how much it hurts. Because that's what a good commander has to do.

Some must be sacrificed...

That would make sense, there is no leader that would ever expect to make it through a conflict without taking casualties, and trying to spare certain people would hurt the army as a whole which goes against a commander's role.

I was looking at the description for the Officer Prestige class in the Starwars Saga universe and came across something that fits it nicely.

'An officer must be comfortable in command, willing to make tough decisions when his men need guidance and occasionally ordering individual soldiers to their deaths so that the unit can survive. A good officer learns to do so without hesitation and only agonizes over the decision when lives are no longer at stake. The best officers don't let their distaste for life-or-death decisions paralyse them when their troops are counting on them. Those who can't find the courage to face such dilemmas rarely stay officers for long.'

We know that Parson is a wargamer and as such, he should know this, it would have been easier back when he was treating this like a game but if sending Wanda or Sizemore into danger is what it will take to save Gobwin Knob, then we will see what kind of Chief Warlord Parson is in the strips to come.

[fendrin]

I fear that the whole 'potential territory expansion' argument has gotten WAY out of hand. First of all, I said potential. Assuming any of the coalition factions claim it, there is a chance that the Jetstone faction will claim it. Beyond that, the other points I have made are as follows (in no particular order):

1. If some non-human factions do not have cities, then it is possible that all non-human factions do not have cities.

2. I assume that mercenary units (i.e. Jillian, the Archons) do not qualify as members of the coalition, and do not have a valid claim to any territory taken from Stanley's faction unless that claim existed prior to the existence of the coalition (i.e. Jillian's claim to Faq).

3. Jetstone is the only named human faction in the coalition, therefore it is possible that Jetstone is the only human faction in the coalition.

Conclusion: It is possible that the Jetstone faction would be the only faction to have a claim to GK.

In logical form:
{table=head]symbol | meaning
. | logical symbol 'dot' (AND)
> | logical symbol 'horseshoe' (IF)
S | Some non-human factions do not have cities
A | It is possible all non-human factions do not have cities
M | Mercenaries are not members of the coalition
T | Only members of the coalition can claim GK
G | Mercenaries cannot claim GK
N | Jetstone is the only named human faction in the coalition
O | It is possible Jetstone is the only human faction in the coalition
C | It is possible that the Jetstone faction would be the only faction to have a claim to GK
[/table]

P₁ is S>A
P₂ is (M.T)>G
P₃ is N > O

I claim (P₁.(P₂.P₃)) > C

[Tarnace]

I don't know what "two times a week" you might be referrig to.

Simple, the large obvious "two times a week banner" at the top of every comic. Of course now because I followed your link I know that isn't a truth which is funny since its not mentioned IN THE ACTUAL COMICS WHICH ARE THE THINGS THE PEOPLE ACTUALLY READ. Also note many people have been reading this comic when it first started so they wouldnt have ever read the "Latness" remark as it didnt exsist then. Also note that order of the stick says 3 times a week without warning - so why doesn't Erf just do something similar? You could just give me the simple excuss of "there not the same book so don't expect the same things" but that would be obvious now wouldn't it? Don't worry, I would never compare stick gold to crap golems

Don't crinkle your nose at other people because they lack details not properly posted. Such flaws are not their imperfections but a reflection of poor design and/or management.

[Gez]

Also note that order of the stick says 3 times a week without warning - so why doesn't Erf just do something similar?

Ask Richard Burlew. It's his site, and he is the one who uploads stuff. He gets the Erfworld strip through mail and puts them here himself; he hasn't given his FTP login & password info to pclips and jami.

So, for all the "poor site management" stuff, that's where the blame falls. The only place on this site where the Erfworld can directly input things is on the forums.

[teratorn]

I'm convinced that Parson can turn the tide on this game if Jillian takes the flyers with her. But depends on if Wanda can uncroak the other side's dead. Each alliance soldier they kill can become one of GK's forces. If Sizemore kills enough marbits in the tunnels Parson may get enough soldiers to hold the siege at the walls.

Also, I wonder from Sizemore's face what kind of orders he was given.

Don't crinkle your nose at other people because they lack details not properly posted.

I crinckle my nose at people who post in the wrong forum. At best that topic should go into Board/Site issues forum.

[Krelon]

Conclusion: It is possible that the Jetstone faction would be the only faction to have a claim to GK.

It is possible means a possibility greater zero, right? Given an interval of (0,1] for the possibility thats a lot of argument to say we don't know anything, really.

Sort of:

While this listing doesn't specifically include all non-Men races, it does say that marbits, in particular, don't have cities. However, as noted above, they are produced somewhere (the extra gem from way back on page 1 that let them afford extra axemen). Perhaps sides with marbit allies produce them in their cities?

Maybe some tribes can pay their own upkeep (sort of a side without cities). Well, he lists some tribes here, but given the listing of some races instead of a simple "only humans have cities" makes me believe other races not included in the listing do have cities.

Also, for the listed races it may be the current political situation, rather then hard coded rules. For example, what would have happened if the gobwin revolt against Saline IV had been successful? Wouldn't it become a gobwin city? Maybe without nobility but still.

[SteveMB]

Also, for the listed races it may be the current political situation, rather then hard coded rules. For example, what would have happened if the gobwin revolt against Saline IV had been successful? Wouldn't it become a gobwin city? Maybe without nobility but still.

Good point. If they never have cities (as opposed to not having any at the moment), why try to overthrow the existing regime? Did they think Stanley would be an improvement? (People have theorized that Stanley was behind the whole thing, but "can't conspire against the Ruler" in reference to warlords in general and the Chief Warlord in particular would seem to contraindicate that.)

[teratorn]

(People have theorized that Stanley was behind the whole thing, but "can't conspire against the Ruler" in reference to warlords in general and the Chief Warlord in particular would seem to contraindicate that.)

Depends, the Titans supersede the rulers, and Stanley was doing the will of the Titans.

[fendrin]

It is possible means a possibility greater zero, right? Given an interval of (0,1] for the possibility thats a lot of argument to say we don't know anything, really.

Yes, that is all I mean, and yes, it doesn't mean much.
The REST of the post that spawned this mess has a lot more meaning.

Maybe some tribes can pay their own upkeep (sort of a side without cities). Well, he lists some tribes here, but given the listing of some races instead of a simple "only humans have cities" makes me believe other races not included in the listing do have cities.

Parson strikes me as the sort of person who will say what he know and not jump to conclusions. If he is only told about gobwins, elves, and marbits, he will only say gobwins, elves, and marbits. Parson not using the simpler form argues neither for nor against the simpler form being true.

Also, for the listed races it may be the current political situation, rather then hard coded rules. For example, what would have happened if the gobwin revolt against Saline IV had been successful? Wouldn't it become a gobwin city? Maybe without nobility but still.

Good point. If they never have cities (as opposed to not having any at the moment), why try to overthrow the existing regime? Did they think Stanley would be an improvement? (People have theorized that Stanley was behind the whole thing, but "can't conspire against the Ruler" in reference to warlords in general and the Chief Warlord in particular would seem to contraindicate that.)

Stanley may have found a loophole, or someone else could have been behind the revolt.

An example of the former might be as teratorn said, Stanley considered the Titans to be his ultimate ruler, and duty to them overrode his duty to Saline IV. Alternatively, he could have 'dropped hints' to someone he had leverage on. For instance, if he had captured but not croaked Banhammer, he could have said to the Faqs "So long as Saline IV lives, Banhammer will never be free".

An example of the latter might be if Wanda was behind the coup as some people have suggested; or, perhaps less likely but more interesting, Ansom might have formed a coalition with the gobwins to overthrow Saline IV, being unaware that Stanley was promoted to heir.

[SteveMB]

Ansom might have formed a coalition with the gobwins to overthrow Saline IV, being unaware that Stanley was promoted to heir.

Why on Erf would he do that? If anything, I can see him being annoyed with Saline IV if he did know about him promoting a commoner to heir (a mechanism he probably accepts grudgingly only because the Titans created it for their inscrutable reasons), but even then I don't see him doing something so contrary to his self-image as a proper royal. If he wanted to conquer Gobwin Knob, the proper way to do it is in a proper fight, not by intrigue and subterfuge.

[The Blind]

People have theorized that Stanley was behind the whole thing, but "can't conspire against the Ruler" in reference to warlords in general and the Chief Warlord in particular would seem to contraindicate that.

There has to be some way to square the double-dealing of low Loyalty with Duty. Page 79 seems pretty definitive that Stanley betrayed Saline: Sizemore thinks it's very unusual that the Gobwins broke their alliance, and it seems equally unusual that he would have taken the most valuable units with him. Perhaps Heirs follow different rules?

Another alternative is to view Duty as a spectrum of sorts. The klog states that it affects all warlords, but Chief Warlords especially, meaning Duty isn't an all-or-nothing proposition. Warlords are bound by it, chief warlords more bound, but nothing here indicates anyone is absolutely controlled. This leaves open a window of opportunity for treason and conspiracy with the Gobwins. This would also explain how Stanley could suspect Parson of betrayal without being a total crackpot. The spell that summoned him compels his obedience, but Duty isn't total or foolproof, as Stanley would know better than anyone.

The alternative is that all obedience is absolute, all the time, but then why would Prince Ansom call Stanley a regicide? In a world where heirs and warlords can't betray Rulers, the idea of regicide is nonsense.

Or Stanley could have been at the right place at the right time. But you can hardly call someone an Overlord and not have them be Evil, can you?