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  1. - Top - End - #61
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Quote Originally Posted by Eighth_Seraph View Post
    Er. I'm pretty sure that Felinoel meant my Monk class. I still mess up and call it a Martial Artist from time to time. But yeah, Passive Way is one the monk styles I've made. It's actually going to be playtested tonight or tomorrow, hopefully. Should be interesting.
    Ah yes, they kept switching names between the monk and martial artist class, Sokka's classes needs to be changed then, a perfect time for me to update it! I was thinking about adding two or three more levels in ranger...


    Or we could take the two builds and make them one? If I had rememebred the Wilderness Rogue I would have used it, but I still say Sokka's sword is adamantine, he could only possibly have 1 level in passive way Monk, and he speciallizes in so many things so he should have several classes, I forget what else were key things in mine that weren't in Meph's
    Last edited by felinoel; 2008-07-24 at 10:29 PM.

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  2. - Top - End - #62
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Hey, something that playtesting has taught me is that under this non-magical system, padded armor proficiency would be both thematically appropriate and a non-broken advantage to the monk class. Under normal item enhancement rules, though, any kind of armor proficiency is a no-no. I'm thinking of giving the proficiency in padded armor anyway. Any thoughts.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    This may be me being dumb, but if you could explain why the non-magical system makes padded armor for monks non-broken, and why magical breaks it. I agree that it makes thematic sense and I just want to understand your reasoning.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    It's a good question. The reason it's broken under the normal magic system is that if you have any kind of armor, it can be enchanted. That means that the normal +1 to AC from padded armor quickly becomes +5 Reflecting Fortified Padded Armor.

    Because we use the Class Defense bonus under the Avatar setting, even Padded Armor of Legend provides no AC bonus, and it grants no DR, so there's nothing to be added there, either. All you get is the ability to grant your padded martial arts uniform some minor enhancements which aren't that useful in the long run.

    In theory.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    So, in effect, Padded armor in our the Class-defense non-magical enhancement setting gives no defensive help? That strikes me as odd.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Actually... um, monks can still do that, it's legal to just enchant a piece of cloth with all of that stuff. (A wondrous item or two in the DMG actually work exactly like that, specifically being listed as having an enhancement bonus to their armor class, and Magic Vestment lists cloth as being treated as armor with an enh bonus of 0.) Just no one complains because monks need a lot of help unless they're in a nearly DR-less, big monster-less campaign.

    Quote Originally Posted by String View Post
    So, in effect, Padded armor in our the Class-defense non-magical enhancement setting gives no defensive help? That strikes me as odd.
    It grants some cold/fire resist and minor protection from crits/sneak attack. I'd take it, better than nothing.
    Last edited by AstralFire; 2008-07-25 at 07:01 PM.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Ah. Well, thats good. I vote for added padded armor to the Monk's armor proficiencies, then.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Very small thing, but under the Sliding Side Kick ability of the Hand and Foot style of the Monk, it says "you may not take any action (including taking attacks of opportunity) until the start of your next turn." This doesn't seem very restricting, since all it really does is prevent you from using extra actions (if there are any in the system) and attacks of opportunity until your next turn. Was it mean to read, say, "until the start of your turn after your next turn," or "until the end of your next turn?" As it is, I'd have to say there's not a whole lot of reason not to use the ability on a charge.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    You read it right the first time. The Hand and Foot style is based largely on tae kwon do, which is what I practice, and this is one of my favorite moves to use against combo counter-attackers. The problem is that if you miss with a skipping or sliding side-kick, your momentum and the angle of your body prevent the use of both hands and feet until you put the foot down and get back into your stance. To a character using this style, that means no Attacks of Opportunity, no use of Deflect Arrows, Snatch Arrows, or Deflect attack (if multiclassed into some sort of bender), and a few other things. It's not meant to be a crippling downside, but it allows opponents to circle the attacking monk without fear of a Stunning AoO, making the technique an unwise one to use against a group of opponents, which reflects the real-life kick rather well.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    So, Seraph: what has our draw told us about the Passive Way monk? I sortof feel like he mightve done better in a party situation, where his ability to flow can give his allies all sorts of AoO's that could actually bypass a DR 8/- character.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    I agree. I mean, the Passive Way monk still has full BAB and some decent damage dice on its style weapon and unarmed strike damage, but it won't match up to any fighter or barbarian in offensive power. I was thinking of slamming damage, where a flow can turn into bash against the floor, dealing additional damage that bypasses DR. Also, arm locks, choke-holds (as the feat, maybe), more powerful Ankle Twist, and automatic Improved Disarm, Improved Trip with the appropriate Passive Way techniques.

    My current project is making a set of techniques given to all hard arts at first level, as well as a set for all soft arts, and a set for weapon-based arts. Yeah. Let's see how that comes along.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Well it certainly appears that Hand and Foot needs to share it's steroids with Passive way. You took down two benders pretty much by yourself. Then Again, Hand and Foot is supposed to be more direct damage than Passive way...but Twice his HP? Thats more than dead


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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Yeah, I started a thread on the Gaming forums asking whether that was broken damage or not. I was actually only supposed to get one Decisive strike, not two, and then a normal attack; since I can't Decisive Strike as part of a Flurry of Blows. That, and I could only get the second attack because of the chi-enhancing tea. Seriously, though. I think the fault lies more in the benders' terrible AC than anything else. I mean, I fought unarmed, so no weapon enhancement attack bonuses, with a full -5 to Power Attack and could still count reliably on hitting the pathetic AC 19 of a fully armored waterbender. And my opponent stayed still long enough for me to full-attack. It was a death-trap.

    My build was hard-core, though. Just sayin'. I want to try it against a good fighter. And against a Passive Way monk. Want to break Gong out again?
    Last edited by Eighth_Seraph; 2008-07-28 at 12:33 AM.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    I also think the problem is with the Bender AC, and not the monk. It wouldn't be so bad(as evidenced by the thread in general), but you auto-hit my AC with your foot even. Add in that your AC was crazy (24ish, right?) and the only save I could target (reflex; are there any seeds that target fort/will?) was +12, and we practically could've called it from the start.

    I think the problem might be that the Armor-as-DR and Defense Bonus systems don't stack very nicely. Anything below chainmail isn't going to affect your AC (minimum defense bonus is +2, which doesn't stack with armor), and everything else up to fullplate will be outclassed by level 3 or 6. Perhaps the system should let the two bonuses stack? That would've meant an extra 6 AC, and a slim (35%) chance that Rialu didn't connect.
    Last edited by AlterForm; 2008-07-28 at 09:40 AM.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    That's starting to seem like a surprisingly good idea. I'll have to make sure that it's necessary at higher levels, and that'll be taken care of in the PCs vs. Monster(s) match comin' up soon. We'll try without stacking the AC bonuses for a bit more, then we'll change it if it becomes necessary. That'll mean overriding Unearthed Arcana and making our own custom variant. Not a new thing to us, of course, but it could be confusing to newcomers, since we can't just link to the SRD anymore.

    Also, I've had some pretty convincing examples on the gaming boards here at GitP showing that my character's damage was not only not broken, but actually sub-par in a standard D&D game. As for the waterbender's damage, I was expecting you to use no-save abilities like Wave and mix them with Freeze. Keeping up your Tentacle form or turning it into an Octopus would have been very dangerous to me, by the way. Remember these strategies for your next match.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Gong is raring to go. Gong versus your HandnFoot would be cool, since you don't have to worry about me completely squishing you, and I don't have to worry about all your AoO options.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    One really simple way that you could boost Passive Way (that would make sense flavor-wise) is to let them make chi-distruption attempts as part of a flow. The end of the series makes it clear that the Kyoshi Warriors (I'm assuming they're the archetype for the Passive Way) added Chi Distruption to their skills. And Ty Lee once used chi distruption with a version of the passive way against Sokka (first time they fought, she just ducked out of the way and poked his back making his arms go limp).

    Also give Passive Way mobility? That would solve the problem of them being exclusively close range. Maybe give them something they can do with their special weapon, like deflect ranged attacks or even deflect bending (we've seen the Kyoshi Warriors do a sort of deflect bending).

    All of this without adding damage!

    Oh, by the way, I love your martial artist class so much that I'm trying my damndest to find someone to playtest the martial artist class (as well as the fighter) in a standard 3.5 environment.
    Last edited by Superglucose; 2008-07-28 at 05:45 PM.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    I like those ideas! You get +2 to your String affiliation score.

    Oh, and Seraph: I brainfarted. I cant do the Gong vs. Hand-Foot fight until I get back from vacation on the eighth or ninth. But once I get back i'm totally up for it.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    String affiliation score?

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    It's a reference to his most recent work on the Setting Hub, which involves making official affiliations for the four nations and their armies, as well as more oblique affiliations like the Dai Li and the Order of the White Lotus. It's from the PHB II, which I don't have, so I can't give you any more than that.

    As for the Passive Way monk, I'm kind of apprehensive at the fact that every fix that I've thought of and that y'all have suggested involves heaps more feats. I was thinking of giving automatic Improved Grapple, Improved Trip, and Improved Disarm when a monk takes the corresponding Passive Way technique. Also, I was thinking that a flow could deal slam damage in some way measured by class levels.

    And just for the record, it's a complete coincidence that the Kyoshi warriors are easily represented by the Passive Way. As a martial artist, I just made a mental list of martial arts archetypes, which included a Judo/Jiu Jitsu-style defensive counter-attacking soft art.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Oh, I don't think you need to add a feat. Why would a monk of the passive way automatically learn chi distruption? Only Ty Lee started the series with Chi Distruption and heaps of those folks were high level passive way users (Suki, for instance). Just make it so that it's possible to use that ability during a flow.

    And giving it mobility would make some sense flavor wise based on the show. And it's a style, not a feat (I realize your point though, don't want to just give heaps of stuff to Passive Way. I'm really just trying to make its existing stuff more versatile)

    So far I don't think I suggested ever giving a passive way monk a feat, just giving them more options to use during a flow. Right now Flow is of limited use because, quite frankly, bullrush/trip/disarm/grapple is of limited use. "ONOES! I lost my sword! Guess I'll have to waste a move action picking it up... too friggen bad you don't do enough damage to capitalize." But Chi Distruption, for anyone who has it, is always relevant...

    I could also see letting a passive way monk use a distrupt bending ability or stunning fist. Here's how I would write it up:

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    At 3rd level, you learn the basis for your art: the passive stance. Whenever an opponent attacks and misses you in melee and misses by 5 or more while you are using Combat Expertise to increase your armor class, you automatically gain a trip, grapple, or disarm attempt against him, at your choice. If you have the necessary feats, you may instead chose to use a stunning fist attempt or an ability that uses a stunning fist attempt. This counts as an attack of opportunity, and you must be aware of your opponent before he makes an attack in order to use any attack from the passive stance.


    That alone would make Passive Way much better.

    EDIT: the way I wrote it was so broken open the first time...
    Last edited by Superglucose; 2008-07-28 at 10:16 PM.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Sorry for the double, but this is kind of important:

    Shower of Sparks only deals 1d4 regardless of the weapon used. Why would a quick strike with a crummy dagger made of wood deal more damage using shower of sparks? Why would a really sharp dagger not get a bonus to damage for shower of sparks?

    As it stands, Shower of Sparks is irrelevant as a feat because per RAW the opponent takes 1d4 damage. Whoopee! None of that will ever get past any dr.

    Here's what I propose:

    When you use One Thousand Cuts, the iterative 1d4 damage is considered part of the first attack, not a seperate attack. Now it's not utterly overpowered (such as letting a firebender use Flame Blades to get 1d4+6d6, or adding crazy bonus damage) but still relevant.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Hrm. You're right about A Thousand Cuts, the feat is absolutely worthless in the setting due to the ubiquitous nature of damage reduction. I like your suggestion, and I'll see if I can't try and put it on par with Solitary Strike. Also, Superglucose, what you're suggesting with the Stunning Fist is already possible. All you need is the Timely Strike technique, and you can make the granted attack a Stunning Fist if you'd like.

    Anyway, I've been thinking more and more about the monk, and I'm rolling with the idea of granting techniques for all hard styles (notice that I changed the Decisive Strike ability to "Strong" styles). Also, I want to grant each fighting style at least one stance that grants certain bonuses and penalties as long as it's held. I mean, Hand and Foot, Passive Way, and Denying Stance all have their own stances already.

    Then I realized something. The monk as I've made it is turning into the Unarmed Swordsage. And I'm somehow okay with that. It'll be a slow, steady process now that school's going to start back up for me in two weeks, but I think it's gonna be great. I'm going to make techniques and stances that will be open for all hard arts, then I'm going to move on to give each art its own techniques and stances. It's gonna be great. I'm also thinking of making a similar set for soft arts, but I dunno if I'd be able to pull that off. We'll see.
    Last edited by Eighth_Seraph; 2008-08-01 at 03:20 PM.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Nonono... not using the stunning fist with the free attack. As I read the rules, I get to make a normal attack after flowing, and that's great. But that's not the flow action. Here's how I read the round going:

    Miss by 5 on my ac
    Initiate flow, bullrush+trip+attack. I get to use the attack to make a chi distruption attempt.

    Here's how I want it to go:

    Miss by 5 on my ac
    Initiate flow, bullrush+chi distrupt+attack. I can use Chi Distrupt (provided I ahve enough stunning fist uses left) on this second attack as well.

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    I have just completed my masterpiece. First, you will all want to look at a new section under the monk's class abilities, where it says Stances. Then you'll want to check out all the different types of styles, several of which have been granted such stances. Then you'll want to look at the post directly after the Monk, where you will my masterpiece, the Ansatsuken style.

    Now I just need to get a jolteon as an animal companion and convince someone to playtest against me.

    However, I've noticed that this has eaten up far too many hours of my time. I dunno if I'm going to go through the trouble of fixing the Passive Way or make stances and fill in dead levels for all the other styles. We'll see.
    Last edited by Eighth_Seraph; 2008-08-05 at 02:52 PM.
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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Something about the ansatku-whatsit style strikes me as broken beyond believe, but I dont know what. Also, the ability of the hand and foot monk to adda bonus for each successful consecutive strike nerfs the fighter, who (to my knowledge) was previously th oly class able to do that, and only after investing a considerable number of his only class features (his feats), and tthen only getting tthe ability at (i believe) 14th level. Just a thought.

    Otherwise I like it. As a side note: do passive way monks have proficiency with bastard swords and warfans right off the bat? I ask to better gain insight on how my Kyoshi warriors affiliation affects them.
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  27. - Top - End - #87
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    Eighth_Seraph's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Hrm. It's probably about as powerful as Hand and Foot, or maybe a bit more powerful. The only thing is that there are several levels of Ansatsuken techniques, so they get better at higher levels, while Hand and Foot techniques are all available at first level, and thus balanced for first level. Looking everything over, though, the class doesn't look broken unless you go out of your way to break it.

    I want to playtest it, though. Since I clearly can't represent Akuma, the Raging Demon before epic levels, I'm gonna make a character called Amaku, the Cajun Teaman. He's gonna be a Native Australian-esque fighter with ranks in Profession (Tea Brewer).
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  28. - Top - End - #88
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    String's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    I'll be willing to put Gong against anyone you need to test. Now tat I'm back from the Emerald Isle.
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  29. - Top - End - #89
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    Superglucose's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    I want to try a different build for the Passive Way monk if you'd let me, but I'd also like to test out a level 20 firebender/cobra strike I have. Let me know which you'd prefer to face.
    Last edited by Superglucose; 2008-08-10 at 12:32 AM.

  30. - Top - End - #90
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    String's Avatar

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    Default Re: [Avatar d20 Project] Warrior Base Classes

    Either. Your preference.
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