Poison

[Avor]

I'll spare you the hate story, but like every good DM my goal is to kill off the players, well one in particual.

First up, snakes.

I'm looking at vipers, but I don't know how secondary damage is applied. Can somebody explain it to me? How long untill secondary damage occures, do they get another save?

[AslanCross]

One minute later, and the subject gets a second saving throw.

[Avor]

One minute later, and the subject gets a second saving throw.

So about 2 rounds?

[Lord Tataraus]

So about 2 rounds?

10 rounds, one round is ~6 seconds.

[Avor]

10 rounds, one round is ~6 seconds.

That could lead to funny.

He defeats the snakes, only to die after the party pulls him out of the pit. :P

[Saph]

I actually once had a player in my campaign die to secondary damage from poison.

Of course, he'd been stung twice by a Wyvern, so it wasn't all that much of a shock.

- Saph

[Everyman]

Everyone above me is right. Of course, the poison rules are some of those few rules in the game that kinda bug me.

"I made my save. I completely shrug off the effects of the 3.2 liters of venom pumped into my body. YEA, FORTITUDE SAVE!"

As a DM, you might want to consider houseruling an increased DC for multiple injections of the same poison. Either that or some sort of penalty for being poisoned X amount of times (save or no save). Just don't go nuts with the penalties. If they manage to shrug off twenty saves, kudos to them.

[Avor]

He's a Ninja, Con score of 12, total fort save of +2. DC 10(i'll fudge it up to 11 or 12)

3-6 tiny vipers, CR of what? 1-2?

the Vipers will need to hit on a 13 or so, and if he rolls a 8 or less, he takes 1d6 con damage. This is going to be mean. A fort save for each does of it is more than enough.

[loopy]

Everyone above me is right. Of course, the poison rules are some of those few rules in the game that kinda bug me.

"I made my save. I completely shrug off the effects of the 3.2 liters of venom pumped into my body. YEA, FORTITUDE SAVE!"

I don't know mate, having 3.2 litres of any liquid pumped into your body wouldn't do it any good at all. ;)

[Khanderas]

I don't know mate, having 3.2 litres of any liquid pumped into your body wouldn't do it any good at all. ;)

Heck yeah. Even 3.2 liters extra of normal blood (compatible with your bloodtype) would seriously hurt. Poisonrules are stupid as it is.

[Farmer42]

Not to mention how much of a joke poison becomes after only a few levels. Either you're fine, or you biff a roll and die a horrible, painful death. Or just take some stat damage or drain. That works, too. I guess.

[Talic]

I guess I'll be the only one who says it.

As a good dm, your goal should not be to kill people. You run the game, that's easy.

Your goal should be to kill characters with completely fair and balanced encounters. Make sure they have an opportunity to win, and derive a secret pleasure from all their blunders.

[Mr. Friendly]

Poison becomes utterly useless after 11th level.

As soon as the party has access to Heroes Feast, it's game over.

Which is hilarious because the Purple Worm is CR 12. :(

[Avor]

I guess I'll be the only one who says it.

As a good dm, your goal should not be to kill people. You run the game, that's easy.

Your goal should be to kill characters with completely fair and balanced encounters. Make sure they have an opportunity to win, and derive a secret pleasure from all their blunders.

Well, you see one of the players totaly ditched the D&D campian we had going just so he could play WoW. I still haven't forgiven him, so now that he wants to play again, I'm going to kill him untill it stops being funny.

Because I know I'm going to laugh when 4 tiny vipers kill him, and he can't whine **** all because it's CR of 1.3. It's going to be a good as when the displacer beast killed him.

It's mean but mostly fair, not my fault they never buy antidotes, and it woun't be my fault it the other players don't jump into the snake pit to save him. Some times the only way to survive an encounter is with foresight and total dependancy on your team-mates.

[Mr. Friendly]

Well, you see one of the players totaly ditched the D&D campian we had going just so he could play WoW. I still haven't forgiven him, so now that he wants to play again, I'm going to kill him untill it stops being funny.

Because I know I'm going to laugh when 4 tiny vipers kill him, and he can't whine **** all because it's CR of 1.3. It's going to be a good as when the displacer beast killed him.

It's mean but mostly fair, not my fault they never buy antidotes, and it woun't be my fault it the other players don't jump into the snake pit to save him. Some times the only way to survive an encounter is with foresight and total dependancy on your team-mates.

{Scrubbed}

[Prometheus]

Unfortunately threatening a problem player tends to cause them to focus more on optimizing their character and less on having fun with everyone else. I'd recommend against playing with anyone you do not want to have fun.

[Avor]

Well, the plan realy didn't work. I had to change things on the fly.

First, the pit trap, well instead of snakes, it slides down the a dwarven tomb. 3 nomral zombies. The PC I want dead is the only that makes his reflex save to avoid falling. On PC makes his tumble check and takes 2 damage, the other fails and takes 12. Upon landing, the the zombie almost scores a critical and leaves the PC at -2.

Fighting, and rope checks insue.

The snakes come up later in the mine/cave, a small underground oasis, glowing blue mushrooms provide light, a pool of water, and a dwarven body in the corner. Greed gets teh better of them, and there is a snake in the body that bits him. The ****er makes his Fort save, and now the two "not almost dead" PCs are surrounded by small snakes that were hiding in thick dark grass. Well, they wisely decide to run instead of fight. The PC I hate makes his tumble check, the other fails, not only getting niped by two of the snakes, but failing his fort saves. Then for secondary damage, fails both, but a heal check by other guy saves him, a grand total of 1 Con left by the end of it.


So the PC I hate, wanted dead, only takes 3 damage out of the whole night, the other two, one sits at -8 HP, the other 1 Con. But I'm okay with that, I know that the dice gods are pissed me when I rolled 4 ones in a role last time I was a player.

Anyways, anytips for a campain with 3 sneaky classes? I'm probly just going to sent them to a old Castle for information, and maybe toss in a low level necomancer. Less **** for them to sneak attack...

[Chosen_of_Vecna]

Well, the plan realy didn't work. I had to change things on the fly.

First, the pit trap, well instead of snakes, it slides down the a dwarven tomb. 3 nomral zombies. The PC I want dead is the only that makes his reflex save to avoid falling. On PC makes his tumble check and takes 2 damage, the other fails and takes 12. Upon landing, the the zombie almost scores a critical and leaves the PC at -2.

Fighting, and rope checks insue.

The snakes come up later in the mine/cave, a small underground oasis, glowing blue mushrooms provide light, a pool of water, and a dwarven body in the corner. Greed gets teh better of them, and there is a snake in the body that bits him. The ****er makes his Fort save, and now the two "not almost dead" PCs are surrounded by small snakes that were hiding in thick dark grass. Well, they wisely decide to run instead of fight. The PC I hate makes his tumble check, the other fails, not only getting niped by two of the snakes, but failing his fort saves. Then for secondary damage, fails both, but a heal check by other guy saves him, a grand total of 1 Con left by the end of it.


So the PC I hate, wanted dead, only takes 3 damage out of the whole night, the other two, one sits at -8 HP, the other 1 Con. But I'm okay with that, I know that the dice gods are pissed me when I rolled 4 ones in a role last time I was a player.

Anyways, anytips for a campain with 3 sneaky classes? I'm probly just going to sent them to a old Castle for information, and maybe toss in a low level necomancer. Less **** for them to sneak attack...

I can only recommend you stop DMing, period. You are clearly not set up for it.

[Nohwl]

use better traps and try again i guess. like make a trap for a save he shouldnt make. and dont forget to make it look like you werent targetting him specifically.

[Avor]

I can only recommend you stop DMing, period. You are clearly not set up for it.

That's what I told them.

But he's a egotistical, powergameing, little ****, who want to run around and do contract killings.

So, I have to kill him(mostly fairly)

use better traps and try again i guess. like make a trap for a save he shouldnt make. and dont forget to make it look like you werent targetting him specifically.

His words "If you kill me, I'll just make the same character, same race, class, description..."

Soon, I WILL target him.

[Mewtarthio]

Well, the plan realy didn't work. I had to change things on the fly.

[...]

So the PC I hate, wanted dead, only takes 3 damage out of the whole night, the other two, one sits at -8 HP, the other 1 Con. But I'm okay with that, I know that the dice gods are pissed me when I rolled 4 ones in a role last time I was a player.

I am laughing at you right now. Ha, ha, ha. Seriously, it's like watching that scene in A Shot in the Dark where the assassin keeps missing Clouseau and killing random bystanders instead.

[rockdeworld]

I think this particular situation calls not for extensive knowledge of poisons, but simply fair play between the DM and the players.

That said, allow me to divulge my (extensive) knowledge of poisons as they pertain to this situation.

...Nah, you know what? It wouldn't help.

Let me just say this about poisons: primary damage is for immediate results, secondary damage is for more sneaky results.

[Nohwl]

have a trap that changes depending on party order.

like a pressure trap that is triggered when someone steps on it. give it some ridiculously high dc, so he will probably fail. if the person is in front, its on a downhill slope that is targeted by the spell grease, that makes him fall into a poisonous spike pit 40 feet down. if he is in back, it shoots 2 maximized fireballs at the party. if he is in the middle, give the trap a delayed activation and have darts shoot out from both sides, and the ceiling and say its harder to dodge, so you can raise the dc. and making them poisonous would help kill him.

and as for him saying he will make the same character, have him make it again, and level the surviving party members up by having them fight something, so he is 2 levels behind.

[Stycotl]

just cuz we're on the topic of poisons (kinda), i will share some of my houserules for poisoning.

1) as mentioned above, dc increases for multiple exposures.

2) secondary damage is repeated again, later. depends on the kind of poison and where would be appropriate to the story/drama/etc, but generally one or two hours later.

3) i use the venom feats in my homebrew sig (look below) that give it a boost.

all in the efforts to give poison a little more of an edge in a world where antitoxins are generic and can somehow cure all of them, where dudes can fly on carpets and throw fireballs, etc.

aaron out.

[Talic]

If it's low level-mid, and you don't mind a humanoid encounter, try a druid. At level 5, you have the Poison spell. Save DC13+wis+greater spell focus or take 1d10 con. Make it a human druid, you'll need feats for sudden maximize.

Alternately, if he doesn't have a lot of HP, a trap for a maximized Power Word: Pain is absolutely stupid lethal.

[Avor]

Well, dwaven bandits killed him in a fair fight. The other two PCs lived, one came close to 0.

But now, the little **** made a Soul Binder just to piss me off. But at least he's now 750 xp behind the others.

They didn't get to it, but by the time they get to level 4, they will face a level 5 wizzard, a minor boss battle. No holds, that means flying and fireballs.

[Nohwl]

by fair, do you mean you targetted him the whole time?

[Avor]

by fair, do you mean you targetted him the whole time?

No. At first the Dwarves went for the closest, but he put himself out there to get a flanking bonus on the leader. That made him the closest for the dwarf that wasnt in combat yet. So after a few rounds he was the target of two of them, the leader attacked him because he was takeing damage from him, and the other dwarf had no reason to not attack the closest enemy.

The third dwarf was delt with by the other PC.

[Person_Man]

Actually, I'm a huge fan of using non-Con damage poison (and ability damage in general) against my PCs. It's a great way to:

1) Force them to make important but not deadly Saves.
2) Punish stat dumps (especially Cha).
3) Create a real threat of being beaten in combat, but without having to worry about real deal.

Also, if you have TPK, you can have the enemy take them prisoner (or save them to eat later). Eventually one of the PCs will heal a point of ability damage, and then you get a jail break/free everyone side quest.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Everyone above me is right. Of course, the poison rules are some of those few rules in the game that kinda bug me.

"I made my save. I completely shrug off the effects of the 3.2 liters of venom pumped into my body. YEA, FORTITUDE SAVE!"

As a DM, you might want to consider houseruling an increased DC for multiple injections of the same poison. Either that or some sort of penalty for being poisoned X amount of times (save or no save). Just don't go nuts with the penalties. If they manage to shrug off twenty saves, kudos to them.

If you get poisoned multiple times, you roll saves multiple times. If ten wyverns stab you, you save against the poison once for every attack, and again once 10 rounds after each attack. That's a lot of saves to make.

Let's say you've got a DC 20 poison and a Fort save of +15. Save on 5+, or a 20% chance of failure.

1 attack: 64% chance of no damage at all.
2 attacks: 41% chance.
3 attacks: 26% chance.
4 attacks: 17% chance.
5 attacks: 11% chance.
6 attacks: 7% chance...

It gets pretty unlikely you'll shrug it off entirely.


Str and Dex poisons rock.