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  1. - Top - End - #1
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    PaladinGuy

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    Default Is that even possible?

    Just wondering what are the odds of Ochul able to not only survive being thrown into a pool of acid with a shark and spikes, also with the fact that we was able to soundly kill one of his jailers and the brutally injure said shark in the process.I mean I doubt even Miko can do that. But what's even more amazing was he was able to get close enough to giving xykon a serious headache with that "smite evil" knock-out punch. The most disturbing thing is the fact he was able to survive more then one of these 100000-1 chances of near-death scenarios.

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    Dwarf in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Sigh.

    D&D is a "simulation" (I use that term loosely.) of Heroic Fantasy. Levels allow you to play games ranging through many levels of power.

    Think of the characters from a moderate-power (One Guy vs mook army head on, One Guy wins) Heroic Fantasy story. That is the sort of character to which O-Chul should be compared.

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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Bear in mind, OotS plays with the hp system quite openly. Rather than interpreting high hit points as being able to turn a lethal blow into a grazing one, it interprets it as being able to survive a lethal blow. Note, for instance, Roy's duel with Miko, in which he impales Miko and only manages to shock her. In the next strip, Miko runs Hinjo through with her katana, causing him to wince.

    In short, OotS characters are a lot more resilient than real people.
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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinofshojo View Post
    Just wondering what are the odds of Ochul able to not only survive being thrown into a pool of acid with a shark and spikes, also with the fact that we was able to soundly kill one of his jailers and the brutally injure said shark in the process.I mean I doubt even Miko can do that. But what's even more amazing was he was able to get close enough to giving xykon a serious headache with that "smite evil" knock-out punch. The most disturbing thing is the fact he was able to survive more then one of these 100000-1 chances of near-death scenarios.
    First of all, read the O'Chul's hitpoints discussion - the OotS world is using D&D rules, not laws of physics.

    Killing the jailer was no biggie: he just made him fall and then shark+acid did their job. Also, that did not cost him any HP at all.

    Brutally injure shark? He did knock a couple of teeth out, but I would not call that a brutal injury. After alll, the shark did not lose its will to attack him.

    Getting close to Xykon... I doubt Xykon was too much afraid of that. In fact, he finds false hope amusing. Especially given that in case of O'Chul he already did that in the throne room. Giving and crushing false hope of the very same person over and over and over again is something Xykon really enjoys. And I really, really doubt that a punch would have any chance of knocking Xykon out. The lich survived Soon himself beating the *censored* out of him for quite a while. A single unarmed strike by a non-epic Paladin would only amuse Xykon.

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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    People in D&D can survive being thrown in lava which, unlike acid, is supposed to kill absolutely anything automatically. So yeah, O-chul can definitly do that, especially since he is the toughest member of the Saphire guard.
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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    In fact, by the numbers, the surprising thing isn't that he survived, but that it hurt him so much that a single Ray of Frost (an absolutely pathetic spell, the weakest thing we've seen anyone in the comic cast) was able to take him down.
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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Querzis View Post
    People in D&D can survive being thrown in lava which, unlike acid, is supposed to kill absolutely anything automatically. So yeah, O-chul can definitly do that, especially since he is the toughest member of the Saphire guard.
    You know, that's the one thing that I would have to change. If I were DMing and someone got thrown in Lava, especially if they didn't have any fire resistance, it would be instantly fatal, regardless of how heroic your character may be. There simply is no aspect of hit points that would explain someone surviving being submerged in lava.

    Everything else in comparison is at least plausible giving a finely-tuned killing machine that adventurers are suppose to represent and possible interpretations of hit points. Read some of the stories of medal of honor recipients for example of the type of punishment some people really can achieve. Hell, I knew someone personally who got shot 17 times and survived, and there are even plenty of cases of people surviving free fall. Since we don't know the molarity or type of acid, it's hard to say how dangerous it really was. As for the shark, they lose and regrow teeth all the time. knocking out some of the sharks teeth is nothing, and plenty of people also survive shark attacks.

    Taken together, I think it is at least possible for someone to survive O-Chuul's situation. Being submerged in lava though, that's just not humanoidly possible.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    There simply is no aspect of hit points that would explain someone surviving being submerged in lava.
    The real question is how someone manages to get submerged in lava to begin with. Lava is a lot denser than flesh, so if a person fell into a pool of lava, they'd float on the surface, with less than half of their surface in contact with the lava. Such a person would obviously be seriously injured, but I'm not sure survival is any more implausible than any of the other things high-level D&D characters (or rare extraordinary real people) survive.
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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glome View Post
    There simply is no aspect of hit points that would explain someone surviving being submerged in lava.
    Heh. No, as we all know, hit points don't actually represent health, but some kind of agility and morale and luck and so forth to avoid being hit. So even though you appear to be submerged in lava, you actually are, er, not somehow? Because you're all that agile and morale-boosted and lucky and so forth.
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    Pixie in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    No.
    he would never be tossed in the acid by the hobgoblins, as hobgoblins don't exist, there for he could not have killed either of them. He could not soundly beat the shark because it's not possible for sharks to live in acid. and since there is no acid shark, it's not possible to get the boost of the acid. and he would not get close to smiteing xykon because it's not possible for the dead to walk and it's not possible to channel holy smiting powers. Cockroaches can't talk so the whole thing wouldn't have been arranged. The azure city doesn't really exist there for it's not possible to be held by Team evil.

    no it's not possible. happy?

    OR, now that i'm done being a wise guy, did you mean is it possible for a D&D character to survive that scenario in a game? I'd say that depnds of the Game Master...

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    Barbarian in the Playground
     
    GreataxeFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    The biggest flaw I can see in this comic, is that if I were a DM, and a player opened his eyes while submerged in acid, I would definitely make them permanently blind, removable only after they are restored to full health, and then remove blindness is cast.

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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Hmm, I totally forgot about the density issue of lava. Getting submerged in lava then is a harder trick than it may first appear.

    An interesting point about the acid is that it isn't even strong enough to weaken O-Chuul's bonds so that he can break the rope. It actually took using one of the spikes on the bottom of the tank to free his hands. I don't know how strong acid needs to be to cause someone to go blind, but I'm guessing the acid they are using isn't very strong at all.

    I'd say the least realistic aspect of this comic is that he actually fell into the water with enough force that he was able to be impaled by the spikes on the bottom. What did they do, put lead weights in his boots?

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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Getting submerged in lava isn't what kills you generally.

    It's the fact that the temperature is high enough to cause your skin to combust that kills you. Getting near enough to the lava to fall in would mean you're already suffering either heat stroke or bursting into flame. It's not like you can hold your hand an inch away from lava and go "aaaaaah, warm".

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glome View Post
    I don't know how strong acid needs to be to cause someone to go blind,
    In reality, in case of being actually submerged, weaker than venegar.
    Last edited by NikkTheTrick; 2008-03-25 at 01:54 PM.

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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by NikkTheTrick View Post
    In reality, in case of being actually submerged, weaker than venegar.
    Of course, this is the same reality where no creature of a dragon's build could fly, magic is impossible, and gods tend not to interact with mortals.
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    BarbarianGuy

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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinofshojo View Post
    Just wondering what are the odds of Ochul able to not only survive being thrown into a pool of acid with a shark and spikes, also with the fact that we was able to soundly kill one of his jailers and the brutally injure said shark in the process.I mean I doubt even Miko can do that. But what's even more amazing was he was able to get close enough to giving xykon a serious headache with that "smite evil" knock-out punch. The most disturbing thing is the fact he was able to survive more then one of these 100000-1 chances of near-death scenarios.
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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by dutch508 View Post
    you know this is a cartoon, right?
    Dude, we're geeks. Overanalysis is our job.
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    So bye, bye, to 3e I cry
    I planeshifted to the Styx but the Styx it was dry
    And all the Gnomes were drinkin' whisky and rye
    Singin' "This'll be the day that I die;
    This'll be the day that I die"

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    GreataxeFighterGirl

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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glome View Post
    I'd say the least realistic aspect of this comic is that he actually fell into the water with enough force that he was able to be impaled by the spikes on the bottom. What did they do, put lead weights in his boots?
    Wouldn't be surprising.

    Let's assume O'Chul is 6 feet tall. From the bottom of the tank to the top of the acid takes almost three of him--so the depth of acid is about 17 feet. From the top of the acid to the top of the spikes is 12 feet.

    When you jump off a high diving board--about ten feet from the pool surface--you have to try to get to the bottom of the pool (12 foot depth) if you want to reach it from just the dive. And this isn't a high board--it's only six feet from board to acid surface. Realistically, O'Chul shouldn't have hit the spikes at all.

    Conclusion:
    1. Weights inside the boots, or:
    2. O'Chul deliberately tried to get to the bottom of the tank, and either somehow messed up on missing the spikes, or found it was impossible to miss them.
    3. A liquid that's less dense than water. Could be done magically.

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    DwarfFighterGuy

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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Glome View Post
    I'd say the least realistic aspect of this comic is that he actually fell into the water with enough force that he was able to be impaled by the spikes on the bottom. What did they do, put lead weights in his boots?
    Wouldn't be surprising.

    Let's assume O'Chul is 6 feet tall. From the bottom of the tank to the top of the acid takes almost three of him--so the depth of acid is about 17 feet. From the top of the acid to the top of the spikes is 12 feet.

    When you jump off a high diving board--about ten feet from the pool surface--you have to try to get to the bottom of the pool (12 foot depth) if you want to reach it from just the dive. And this isn't a high board--it's only six feet from board to acid surface. Realistically, O'Chul shouldn't have hit the spikes at all.

    Conclusion:
    1. Weights inside the boots, or:
    2. O'Chul deliberately tried to get to the bottom of the tank, and either somehow messed up on missing the spikes, or found it was impossible to miss them.
    3. A liquid that's less dense than water. Could be done magically.

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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Querzis View Post
    People in D&D can survive being thrown in lava which, unlike acid, is supposed to kill absolutely anything automatically. So yeah, O-chul can definitly do that, especially since he is the toughest member of the Saphire guard.
    Funny thing about acid, it tends to blind you, and the pain of your entire skin being burned away makes it really hard to concentrate... not to mention how having acid burns on 100% of your body means you're pretty much screwed without a skin graft.
    Before WWI, it was statistically more dangerous for a woman to give birth than it was for a man to fight in a war.

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    Barbarian in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Newtkeeper View Post
    Of course, this is the same reality where no creature of a dragon's build could fly, magic is impossible, and gods tend not to interact with mortals.
    The guy was asking about how strong acid needs to be. I explained to him that eyes in reality can be damaged by pretty much any acid.

    D&D, however, does not go into discussion of how strong acid is. From what I remember (correct me if I am wrong) acid is just either magical or nonmagical. Since nonmagical acid causes damage upon getting on skin, we have to conclude that it is pretty strong acid (suplhiric, hydrochloric, etc. at significant concentration).

    My point was: lack of damage to eyes cannot be explained by weakess of acid. Anything damaging to skin is devastating ot eyes. The only explanation: D&D rules do not require blindness effect, so it is not there.
    Quote Originally Posted by T.Titan View Post
    Funny thing about acid, it tends to blind you, and the pain of your entire skin being burned away makes it really hard to concentrate... not to mention how having acid burns on 100% of your body means you're pretty much screwed without a skin graft.
    With 100% skin damaged, a person is screwed regardless of graft or no graft.
    Last edited by NikkTheTrick; 2008-03-25 at 07:21 PM.

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    Firbolg in the Playground
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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Since nonmagical acid causes damage upon getting on skin, we have to conclude that it is pretty strong acid (suplhiric, hydrochloric, etc. at significant concentration).
    Actually, despite hydrochloric being the strongest of the acids, it's actually relatively benign, as far as damage to humans go. I once spilled some highly concentrated HClaq on my hand, and by the time I walked casually over to the sink to wash it off, it had done enough damage to give me a slight itch that lasted for about an hour.

    Now, hydrofluoric, that's a different story. You do NOT want to have any contact whatsoever with that stuff.
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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    That's already in the rules, though. If you want to concentrate on something, you have to make a concentration skill check that increases the more damage you're taking. A spellcaster would be pretty much screwed if he were submerged in acid.

    RE. Acid burns: 100% of the body surface can be burned, and you could still survive it even in a magic-free world. Just make sure that a decent portion of that is 1st or 2nd degree burns, from which the skin can still heal, and that your lungs are still working. I wouldn't envy the guy trying to recover from that, though. They don't make painkillers strong enough for burn victims.

    Of course, in OOTS-world, you could be healed and survive easily... which is probably why the cleric is there. Theoretically, in D&D you can get mortally wounded thousands of times a day and still survive, given the existence of healing magic. Ouch.
    Last edited by Callista; 2008-03-25 at 08:12 PM.

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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by Craig1f View Post
    The biggest flaw I can see in this comic, is that if I were a DM, and a player opened his eyes while submerged in acid, I would definitely make them permanently blind, removable only after they are restored to full health, and then remove blindness is cast.
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    Now here's a random thought: what if O'Chul isn't totally human, what if he's part Aaisimar or something that grants acid resistance?

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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by T.Titan View Post
    Funny thing about acid, it tends to blind you, and the pain of your entire skin being burned away makes it really hard to concentrate... not to mention how having acid burns on 100% of your body means you're pretty much screwed without a skin graft.
    Yes, well, we've had people spitted with swords before in OotS and then had them walk away. Heck, by the RAW a melee warrior of Belkar or Roy's power could get dumped in lava for up to half a minute before dieing (assuming mid-to-low rolls on that 20d6/round dmg).
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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by paladinofshojo View Post
    Just wondering what are the odds of Ochul able to not only survive being thrown into a pool of acid with a shark and spikes, also with the fact that we was able to soundly kill one of his jailers and the brutally injure said shark in the process.I mean I doubt even Miko can do that. But what's even more amazing was he was able to get close enough to giving xykon a serious headache with that "smite evil" knock-out punch. The most disturbing thing is the fact he was able to survive more then one of these 100000-1 chances of near-death scenarios.
    it seems likely that the chance are exactly 1000000 to 1; but then again, million to one chances crop up 9 times out of 10.
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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Quote Originally Posted by NerfTW View Post
    Getting submerged in lava isn't what kills you generally.

    It's the fact that the temperature is high enough to cause your skin to combust that kills you. Getting near enough to the lava to fall in would mean you're already suffering either heat stroke or bursting into flame. It's not like you can hold your hand an inch away from lava and go "aaaaaah, warm".
    Come on, its not that bad. Typical lava is around a thousand degrees, while hotter than ordinary bonfire embers, it will not make you hand burst into flames immediately. You would feel the heat and retract you hand within seconds, if kept there you'd get burns, it would blacken and it might finally burst into flames within several minutes.

    Getting into contact with i will give severe burns faster of course. And you are not going to survive long with third degree burns all over you body, but in a world of healing potions and spells, that can be fixed.

    Acid is as stated many times, much weaker. Base is much more damaging to flesh. Even concentrated Hydrochloric acid takes minutes to do severe damage. Vinegar would take hours. Eyes are weaker, safety instructions in the lab I sit in now says that it is important to rinse with water within 5 seconds if acid gets into you eye. But it is feasible that O-chul would have just enough eyesight left to locate Xykon.

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    Default Re: Is that even possible?

    Funny that you should mention the un-realistic...ness of lava not being instantly or near-instantly fatal in DnD. According to the interwebs, they're changing falling into lava to be an instant death with no save (though it doesn't mention fire resist might change that) in the upcomming edition.

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    Quote Originally Posted by Tass View Post
    Come on, its not that bad. Typical lava is around a thousand degrees, while hotter than ordinary bonfire embers, it will not make you hand burst into flames immediately. You would feel the heat and retract you hand within seconds, if kept there you'd get burns, it would blacken and it might finally burst into flames within several minutes.
    2140 degrees farenhiet. Thats' WAY hotter than a bonfire. Remember that it's molten ROCK. This isn't like an oven, which only goes up to a thousand or so. Human skin combusts at 130 degrees farenheit. Keep in mind that all this heat can radiate pretty far. You will start to burn within a few feet.

    You would pass out from heat stroke if you got closer than a few feet. Your skin would start to burn very quickly, not in a few minutes. The lava flows people watch tend to have cooled down quite a bit since leaving the volcano.
    Last edited by NerfTW; 2008-03-26 at 09:01 AM.

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