103 The Battle for Gobwin Knob, Page 93

[teratorn]

Of course, to make matters worse the victim doesn't get to heal in between hit and runs, but the attacker does.

I hope not, because if it happens than there is a huge plothole in the story. If Jillian, a barbarian, would have able to move twice just by abandoning the alliance, the whole donut of doom incident doesn't make sense. Ansom could have easily had Jillian, gwiffons and the archons protecting siege if they could move twice before Stanley's turn. With air cover on Ansom's side the hit and run tactic would not have worked.

The only way for this to make sense is for units not to heal and not to recover move before the turn of the side where they got injured/spent their move.

That is a major exploit; if Parson had done that with the dwagons he would have been able to hit team Ansom twice, with ALL the dwagons.

Parson doesn't have allies. He could not do it. Stanley would not start a new side and give it its most valuable assets, the dwagons.

[fendrin]

Let's get a few basic premises we can agree on. According to Parson, who got his information from Sizemore, nobles are on average better than commoners, and royals are better than nobles, statwise. We can't argue this, without also placing doubt on EVERYTHING we know about erfworld mechanics because it requires thinking that the characters that provide the information could be wrong.

Presuming you are referring to this klog, there does not seem to be any difference in stats between nobles and royals. That klog also implies that there can be multiple royal heirs, at which point a new side is spawned.

Your conspiracy theory claimed that anyone promoted to heir becomes a royal. This doesn't happen, clearly.

Read my posts again. I said popped not promoted.

YOU said that a capital is the same as any other city, and only marked where the leader governed from. The leader can govern from where he pleases, which would mean the capital can change. If the capital remains a capital despite the leader moving, then there is a specific quality of the city that sets it appart from the other cities. That it is a CAPITAL. Choose an argument and stick with it.

All the designation of 'capital' means in our world is that is the current seat of government. It can be changed. Other than that, it means nothing. Why does Erfworld have to be different? Not that I'm saying it isn't, but we shouldn't assume something is different without a good reason.

There is no overlap. You have three kind of units: commoners, nobles and royals. Unrelated to this, factions have one single leader and succesor each. Being the leader or the heir doesn't give you any bonuses that we've been told about. It applies a set of rules to you, but your base type of unit doesn't change. You can believe otherwise, but there's no evidence and I don't argue belief.

Again, I said popped, not promoted.

We have observed that the rules that being leader or heir apply to you are different depending on your base type. The most obvious difference is that a royal is a king or prince, while a commoner is an overlord or heir designate instead. There may be more, but we know this distinction at least exists.

Those are, as far as we can tell, just labels. Just like in the real world. Again, why must Erfworld be different?

As I said before, Saline didn't have an heir. Why he chose not to pop one, we cannot know. Faq only popped Jillian because he feared he'd fall, so it's not strange for leaders to not have a succesor. In any case, lacking a heir, selecting one is a simple choice. Why the titans decided for this to be possible? No idea. Why did they dress as elvises? The motives of the titans are mysterious.

Considering the "great expense" and anti-non-royal warfare, I'd say there is nothing simple about promoting a commoner to heir.

[Thydron]

Of course, to make matters worse the victim doesn't get to heal in between hit and runs, but the attacker does. Its possible the free kills and damage might make it possible to completely wipe out the enemy.

I'm not sure thats true - I think it basically goes like this:

before alliance break:
A's turn - B's turn ||Nighttime|| A's B's ||Nighttime|| A's B's [+ B's Alliance Switch] ||Nighttime|| B's A's ||Nighttime|| B's A's ||Nighttime||

So given healing happens at night, everyone gets to heal.
But yeah, even without the healing thing it seems a pretty useful tactic, but pretty limited in that you need to have an ally with an earlier turn than you, & can only be used on stacks with warlords (to stop autoattacking). Also, if you ever want to switch back you lose a turn (relative to the other team), but i guess this wouldn't be a problem if you managed to kill everyone :p

[raekuul]

can only be used on stacks with warlords (to stop autoattacking).

Do we know how many warlords we have in the coalition? Plus, if it's still Jetstone's turn, they can reposition themselves in such a way as to prevent autoattacking. All these little variables that no-one knows for certain are going to play out very quickly.

[ralphmerridew]

I'm not sure thats true - I think it basically goes like this:

before alliance break:
A's turn - B's turn ||Nighttime|| A's B's ||Nighttime|| A's B's [+ B's Alliance Switch] ||Nighttime|| B's A's ||Nighttime|| B's A's ||Nighttime||

So given healing happens at night, everyone gets to heal.
But yeah, even without the healing thing it seems a pretty useful tactic, but pretty limited in that you need to have an ally with an earlier turn than you, & can only be used on stacks with warlords (to stop autoattacking). Also, if you ever want to switch back you lose a turn (relative to the other team), but i guess this wouldn't be a problem if you managed to kill everyone :p

Healing happens at the beginning of the player's turn.

[fendrin]

Right, so here's how I understand it:

Let a and b be two sides in a conflict. Assume that b is an alliance, comprised of b1 and b2.

Hx = x is healed/food pops/etc.
Tx = x is active on their turn
Sx = x is splitting their forces into 2 sides
Ax(y) = x is forming an alliance with y

The typical pattern would be:

1. Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Night;
2. Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Night;
3. etc.

What we are seeing is this:

1. Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
2. Hb1, Tb1, Ha, Ta, Hb2, Tb2, Night;
3. Hb1, Tb1, Ha, Ta, Hb2, Tb2, Night;
4. etc.

If b1 and b2 were to recombine it might look like:

1. Hb1, Tb1, Ab1(b2), Ha, Ta, Hb2, Tb2, Night;
2. Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
3. Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
4. etc.

It might also look like:

1. Hb1, Tb1, Ab1(b2), Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Night;
   (note: b1 is part of b and thus is acting again)
2. Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
3. Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
4. etc.

I hope for the first option, or else this is a ridiculously major exploit:

1. Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
2. Hb1, Tb1, Ab1(b2), Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
3. Hb1, Tb1, Ab1(b2), Ha, Ta, Hb, Tb, Sb, Night;
4. etc.

Notice that b1 is acting (including healing) twice per day.

I wonder if paying upkeep is part of Hx. If so, this would double the upkeep costs of b1. That could be why it does not see widespread use.

Oh, and Stanley does have an ally: the Gobwins.
Hey, wouldn't they have needed an Overlord/King/Queen when they rebelled against Saline IV? Who was it?

[teratorn]

In fact as explained by Fendrin, a coallition with a few sides could rearrange its forces on each turn in order to always have this kind of exploit. If it were not for some sort of penalty involved would double their effective force because of the healing/move factor.

I think Ansom is just doing it to keep the air cover during this turn (he's likely to attack the walls with a smaller force and somw dwagons might be veiled), not spending any move, and still be able to catch Stanley before his next turn.

Oh, and Stanley does have an ally: the Gobwins.
Hey, wouldn't they have needed an Overlord/King/Queen when they rebelled against Saline IV? Who was it?

Unlikely. After the rebellion their status should be that of captured units, like Wanda. Besides, I don't see Stanley giving them the dwagons.

[SteveMB]

Oh, and Stanley does have an ally: the Gobwins.
Hey, wouldn't they have needed an Overlord/King/Queen when they rebelled against Saline IV? Who was it?

We know that gobwins are one of those sides with no capital, cities, or royals, that form "long semi-permanent alliances". That suggests to me that such sides can't function independently (at least not in the long run) and are always allied with somebody (though they can stab an existing ally and switch to another).

If so, that implies that one of the "normal" sides was ultimately behind the gobwin revolt....

[Felkethar]

In response to this:

1) You are quite correct, that is the assumption I am making. It may be correct, it may not be, and yes that is an argument breaking assumptionif I am wrong .

2) The plot I was refering to was not who wins (so to speak) but rather the idea that to maintain an interesting plot you must maintain tension between the chracters and this is the quickest way to push things along while still maintaining that tension, most espically in Parson's life. If Parson gets to become his own side (in some mystical fashion) the tension virtually evaporates for him, thus the idea that Stanely has to stick around. Now you are correct there are an infinite ways for him to do so, but this is the move I believe is most in character for him. Whether or not that is the way it goes down... well that is why it is a guess

I will in general agree with your assement of the characters, though even as Parson has yet to show amazing genius he is still a far more balanced and better commander than Ansom is, and thus I do not believe he will have too much trouble in a one vs one situation with him. That being said I do actually enjoy the fact that Parson, as good as he is claimed to be, is still not far above and beyond the native's ability, as that creates plot tension and an interesting story.

I find your theory quite interesting... there are two aspects of your argument that I find flawed, though.

1) We don't know how many units Charlescomm has. The way I read it, the 15 listed were the ones committed to Ansom's alliance; there could be many others at the base (and, if Charlie's half as smart as he's supposed to be, ie at least average, there will be).

2) Who says the plot requires Stanley's side to win? Parson is very good, but he's not the Overmind people seem to think he is. For all the talk of Vinnie being the voice of reason who allowed Ansom to fight back against Parson's genius, Vinnie's plans were to either run away or make their stand, and all sucked. It was Ansom who made the daring hunt-the-dragons move that was such a decisive victory (destroying as many dwagons, proportionally, as Parson destroyed siege). He still has the overwhelming force, and Parson has some clever ideas, but no Kobayashi-Maru, think-outside-the-box tactic that will allow him to do more than slow Ansom down (IMHO). Maybe he should sneak some bad acid over to the enemy camp.

The plot is not known to us, otherwise it wouldn't be very interesting, now would it? Maybe the plot will have Parson captured by Jetstone, maybe he escapes and survives because he's from another universe, maybe he pulls some Deus-ex-machina victory out of somewhere... or maybe he dies. I just hope that whatever happens, it makes for a good story.

[Winged One]

Personally, I think Charlie is going to wind up in control of Parson somehow. Either the same way Stanley got control of Wanda or as part of a deal where Parson trades himself for the services of some Archons during the Battle for Gobwin Knob.

[Lamech]

In fact as explained by Fendrin, a coallition with a few sides could rearrange its forces on each turn in order to always have this kind of exploit. If it were not for some sort of penalty involved would double their effective force because of the healing/move factor.

There is probably a rule that says a unit can only heal/recover move once a day. That would prevent the alliance switch from being constantly abused. Also if the new turn can only be created at the start of the new day it would prevent one side from using it whenever it is advantageous and sacrificing their turn when it isn't.

It would also mean Parson could not have used it with out first sacrificing a turn. Although it may allow Stanley to use it against the alliance air force if they don't hit him on this attempt

[El_Chupacabra]

There's been some debate on whether Stanley is headed for Faq or a Dwagon Nest nearby. What if it's both?

Perhaps Stanley stumbled on Faq near a dwagon nest, which could explain the suddenness of Faq's fall -- I would think that even the most lightly defended Capitol would take more than one turn to fall, unless the King was whacked early on.

So then the scenario could unfold that Jillian and company could arrive at Faq first, but then Stanley arrives with significantly larger forces.

Also, the scenario could include Stanley heading for a Dwagon Nest, then after Charlie, and possibly an en passant encounter with Jillian in the mountains instead of over a city, which might have terrain more to Stanley's advantage?

[teratorn]

There is probably a rule that says a unit can only heal/recover move once a day.

If it were only that, Ansom could have still used this trick to get Jillian and the archons into the column after the dwagon raid. He behaved like the siege would be lost if he didn't attack the dwagons. Things can't be that simple.

[Lamech]

If it were only that, Ansom could have still used this trick to get Jillian and the archons into the column after the dwagon raid. He behaved like the siege would be lost if he didn't attack the dwagons. Things can't be that simple.

They would have had to break alliances with Jetstone; that would have been problematic.

[Laurentio]

They would have had to break alliances with Jetstone; that would have been problematic.

Actually, to use the double-move during the Dragon Nest scenario, Anson would had to join UNDER Vinnie. And I suppose that Anson Jetstone can't truly ally under someone, especially a non royal. Could you see him calling someone "mylord"?

Laurentio

[Moral Wiz]

Also, it's probable that you can only ally with a side when one of their representitives are there. That'd make sence, and limit the potential of the sploit

[VariaVespasa]

3. If he does the smart thing, Stanley will start his own new side to counter the double move tactic of the new alliance. The questions this brings up are: Who gets control of GK when Stanley cedes? I don't see him caring enough to appoint an heir, so it's left between, in my mind, Parson as Warlord, Wanda as chief caster, or Sizemore as the highest ranking remnant of the Plaid clan.

He cant start a new side just like that- he already IS a side. Ceding GK doesnt change that, it just costs him the city. Ansom is creating a new side by splitting an existing side into 2. Stanley can only create a new side by ceding GK to someone not already involved in the war. So he would *have* to create or promote someone to heir, cede GK to them, and then break the (assumed default) alliance to create the needed new side. Wanda is currently broken and thus probably cant be promoted at the moment, and Stanley doesnt think enough about the other casters (Sizemore and the Thinkamancer/Foolamancer/Lookamancer) to even remember their names, let alone consider promoting them (quite apart from 2 of those 4 being unavailable anyway), so it would probably have to be Parson by default. Plus, I would bet that being the highest ranking unit in GK it would be cheaper to promote Parson than a lower-ranked unit, and far cheaper than spawning an heir from scratch (which requires creating a new unit, not just increasing an existing units powers). That could let Stanley escape the Jetstone gambit, and save Parson too. We could indeed have our cake and eat it too. :)

[SteveMB]

He cant start a new side just like that- he already IS a side. Ceding GK doesnt change that, it just costs him the city. Ansom is creating a new side by splitting an existing side into 2. Stanley can only create a new side by ceding GK to someone not already involved in the war.

Most of the rest of the post makes sense, but where are you getting the "someone not already involved in the war" requirement? Ansom's side-splitting sploit involved sides that were already involved in the war.

[VariaVespasa]

If used well this two-turn-in-a-row is pretty broken, and I'll show you how.

It is indeed potentially extremely dangerous, but it is a deliberate rules choice in Erfworld, not an exploit, and is certainly not without precedent in wargaming. Third Reich by Avalon Hill includes the mechanic for turn order changing based on which side has the economic advantage at the time, allowing precisely this double-turn possibility, not just once, but potentially several times in the game, and it can be deliberately engineered by careful spending if one side or the other feels so inclined. It is a guaranteed occurance at least once in the game (When the US enters the war). The classic board-game Shogun has it as an integral part of its strategy too, also tied to economics, after a fashion. I'm sure there are other examples too.

Just remember, its a trick that can only work once, and then the other side has to get a double-turn against you at some point before you can pull it a second time. It is a powerful trick, but its not something you can necessarily arrange whenever you like, and it comes with the possibility of an equally large downside, when the other side gets a double turn eventually.

So, not an exploint, just a dangerous rule to test the cunning and caution of the players.

[VariaVespasa]

Most of the rest of the post makes sense, but where are you getting the "someone not already involved in the war" requirement? Ansom's side-splitting sploit involved sides that were already involved in the war.

Oh, thats just because, as it currently stands, Stanley doesnt have any allied factions capable of being their own side with him is all, and obviously the Jetstone factions wont ally with him, ergo he'd need a group not currently part of the war. Its not a rules thing, just a personal circumstances issue.

We dont know everything about the gobwins and how their arrangement with Stanley works, but as best we know they dont seem to have any warlords present in GK, so I'm assuming they cant be used for this purpose. But because we dont know the arrangement I could be wrong. We shall see.

I'm assuming that all alliance leaders will automatically learn the turn order at the beginning of each day, so Stanley should learn about Jillian/Vinnie before they get to do their first turn. Whether or not he can try any similar shinanigans before his turn or not remains uncertain, even if he does have the personell etc to try it. I assume that he will know basically what happened, rules-wise, as soon as it happens, which will remind him of the option if he can find a way to execute it, so we may see it from him. He's flaky, but he's not entirely stupid.

[teratorn]

Actually, to use the double-move during the Dragon Nest scenario, Anson would had to join UNDER Vinnie.

Why? Ansom simply had to break Jillian and the Archons from the alliance. With that he could protect siege with no need to attack the dwagon fort.

Even if he wanted to attack the dwagons with Vinny and Tarfu, it would have been easy to escape:

• move Jill close to the donut, then break the alliance with her and Charlie
• next morning all the gwiffons and archons are able to move again
• pick Ansom, Vinny and Tarfu back into the main column
• carry as many elves as the move from the gwiffons allows.

The gumps would be left there, but they would be probably safe, since Parson probably would not risk dwagons for them.

If things were this simple then I would be very disappointed with Rob and Jamie.

[Lamech]

Why? Ansom simply had to break Jillian and the Archons from the alliance. With that he could protect siege with no need to attack the dwagon fort.

Even if he wanted to attack the dwagons with Vinny and Tarfu, it would have been easy to escape:
move Jill close to the donut, then break the alliance with her and Charlie
next morning all the gwiffons and archons are able to move again
pick Ansom, Vinny and Tarfu back into the main column
carry as many elves as the move from the gwiffons allows.
The gumps would be left there, but they would be probably safe, since Parson probably would not risk dwagons for them.

If things were this simple then I would be very disappointed with Rob and Jamie.

I see two problems with this. One Jillian the gwiffions and archons would be attacked by any non-commanded units of the alliance. Two, Jillian could have rescued Tarfu, Vinny and Ansom anyway, in fact that was Jillian's original plan. There is no way Ansom would give Stanley a chance to pull a double turn with all the surviving dwagons, to save a couple elves.

[Thydron]

Why? Ansom simply had to break Jillian and the Archons from the alliance. With that he could protect siege with no need to attack the dwagon fort.

Even if he wanted to attack the dwagons with Vinny and Tarfu, it would have been easy to escape:

• move Jill close to the donut, then break the alliance with her and Charlie
• next morning all the gwiffons and archons are able to move again
• pick Ansom, Vinny and Tarfu back into the main column
• carry as many elves as the move from the gwiffons allows.

The gumps would be left there, but they would be probably safe, since Parson probably would not risk dwagons for them.

If things were this simple then I would be very disappointed with Rob and Jamie.

I guess it depends on when Jillian naturally gets her turn - if it would be after stanley got to move anyway then it wouldn't be much point (ie if it went
A B || A B || A B(split) || A B1 B2 || A B1 B2 || - there wouldn't be much point. its only working with vinnys side because vinny gets his turn before stanley does, and i dont think theres any reason to believe that jill would have got her move before stanley.)
at least thats how I understand it

[Laurentio]

If things were this simple then I would be very disappointed with Rob and Jamie.

You are ignoring Ansom's character. That way he would have just saved his own life - not his real priority. And during Stanley turn, there would have been a full fledged dragon strike on war engines.
On the other side, with the two-moves spoil, he could had killed all wounded dragons (during his turn, as he did), and all the dragon in the Nest, during Vinnie's. Total dragon annihilation, that means the aerial monopoly during the attack. And incidentally, the end of the story.

But he didn't. And I think that he didn't because he would had to join under Vinnie, to take the advantage of the new move. And Ansom is no second man to anyone.

Laurentio