[Generic] Werewolves and Vampires (friend or foe)

[Lord Tataraus]

Ok, three questions I would like to poll on concerning the interaction between Werewolves and Vampires in a modern setting. This is aside from movies or books, just in some form of RPG.

Think fast: what is the relationship between Werewolves and Vampires? Immediate reactions only, what do you think of by default when it comes to Weres and Vamps? (that's one question phrased 2 different ways)

Why?

Which interaction do you prefer in general: feuding, indifferent, or allies?

Why?

My answers:

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Think Fast: Indifferent/potential allies. Of course this always causing confusion with some of my friends who always default to "feuding" mode on this subject.
Why: I come from a (slightly modified) nWoD setting background on this subject and always have Werewolves as mostly indifferent to Vampires, only calling on them to protect loci in exchange for mercenary duty and Vampires actively seek Werewolves to do their dirty work if they can get them.

Which interaction do you prefer in general: Indifferent as stated before, though I guess its more of a one-sided indifference whereas the other side would rather be allies. Sometimes I like having a closer relationship in my games and have Vamps and Weres very close allies.
Why: The straightforward answer is because I like nWoD Werewolves who are pretty much disconnected from human society so they aren't too concerned about undead since they can't become one and both sides have something to gain from the other's abilities.

Edit: Uh, this is in no way connected to the other Vampires and Werewolves thread I just noticed...sorry about that.

[SurlySeraph]

Think fast: They fight each other! Except for the ones that are both!

Why? Um... because it's cool? Because they occupy a fairly similar ecological niche and are therefore often in competition for spawn and prey?

Which interaction do you prefer in general: feuding, indifferent, or allies? Feuding

Why? Because I like it when rifts between the villains are the main reason that the heroes are strong enough to defeat them.

[Riffington]

They cannot be allies.
Werewolves can serve the vampires or oppose them. But cannot be partners.

[lisiecki]

Ok, three questions I would like to poll on concerning the interaction between Werewolves and Vampires in a modern setting. This is aside from movies or books, just in some form of RPG.

Think fast: what is the relationship between Werewolves and Vampires? Immediate reactions only, what do you think of by default when it comes to Weres and Vamps? (that's one question phrased 2 different ways)

Why?

Which interaction do you prefer in general: feuding, indifferent, or allies?

Indifferent

Only because i think that the
Underworld/Old World of Darkness thing of werewolf and vampire fudes has been done to death

[LibraryOgre]

First time I remember seeing anything about a feud between vampires and werewolves was "The Real Ghostbusters".

However, I tend to view them as indifferent, with the vampires being slightly antagonistic towards the werewolves.

Vampires are full-time predators. Werewolves are part-time predators. Werewolf predation, however, threatens vampire food stock, and may draw unwanted attention to vampires (because suspicious werewolf incidents are likely to be investigated for their savagery... which will bring bright light into dark corners).

[Raum]

Ok, three questions I would like to poll on concerning the interaction between Werewolves and Vampires in a modern setting. This is aside from movies or books, just in some form of RPG.

What is the relationship between Werewolves and Vampires? Immediate reactions only, what do you think of by default when it comes to Weres and Vamps?
- Competitors.

Why?
- They're competing over the same limited resource supply - humans. (Assuming both reproduce through infection.)

Which interaction do you prefer in general: feuding, indifferent, or allies? Why?
- Anything but indifferent. Hence my choice of "competitors" as default. Competitors may ally with each other temporarily or go their separate ways for short times. But they must always be aware of the competition - can't ever let the other group get too far ahead. Can't risk being squeezed out.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Think fast:Rival but non-hostile powers.
Why:I have used them, along with others, in a setting recently where they had old fudes but the old ones did not want to force the issue anymore (kinda cold war style) and the young (especially the "young trash" types that tend to get ignored by the nobility) had started to merge culturally.

Which interaction do you prefer in general: feuding, indifferent, or allies? Whatever can be made to have verisimilitude in the setting.

Why? Because it shows that the game runner can plan a game.

[Tengu_temp]

Think fast: Enemies.

Why? Too much contact with oWoD.

Which interaction do you prefer in general: Indifferent as species, with varying approaches depending on individuals/factions.

Why? Because it makes sense, and allows all kinds of plot hooks. If my games used vampires and werewolves more often.

[Doomsy]

Think fast: Avoidance on the part of the vampires, uncaring neutrality on the part of the werewolves.

Why? Vampires are parasites, not predators. Werewolves are a social predatory species with a wide prey range and are capable of sustaining their own culture. A vampire is essentially pathetic - dependent upon human blood, cursed with dozens of weaknesses, and forced to constantly move to avoid human retaliation. Any intelligent vampire is a paranoid one - they keep a low profile, they keep moving as much as possible, they feed as little as they can get away with. Even coming near a werewolf is unacceptable danger - they are vastly more powerful than a vampire and can strike at them during the day with ease, slicing through human servants or dupes like wet cardboard.

Which interaction do you prefer in general: Indifferent.
Why? As I said, vampires are pathetic tragedies. Count Orlocks line in Shadow of the Vampire about how the saddest part of the story was Dracula setting his own table, having to remember what it was like to be human and host, is essentially the tragic core of the vampire before sexual glamor was applied. A vampire is less than human - they have no possibility of their own culture, they can only imitate humans. They are enslaved to follow humankind forever, but are in danger from their food source if discovered. Their lives are pathetic and lonely and tragic, not glamorous lords of the night. Even Dracula adhered to this formula.

A werewolf is a true predator with their own chance of being a real culture and society to their own. They can have children, they can live as themselves, they can make things for future generations. They can chose how they can live. They are not tethered by an addiction to blood or a fear of the light. A vampire is at worst a potential danger to the children or to human loved ones, and the vampire would realize that quickly. At best, a pathetic beast to pitied, not obeyed or feared.

[AngelSword]

Think fast: what is the relationship between Werewolves and Vampires? Immediate reactions only, what do you think of by default when it comes to Weres and Vamps? (that's one question phrased 2 different ways)

Sadly, when someone mentions modern vampires and werewolves, my mind goes back to Underworld.

Why?

It's the only movie/series that addresses such a pairing.

Which interaction do you prefer in general: feuding, indifferent, or allies?

I prefer to use whichever interaction suits my story.

Why?

What sort of storyteller would I be if I relied on conventions set forth by previous writers?

[Lemur]

The First: Indifferent. Don't see too much reason they should care about each other- one drinks the blood of the living, one turns into a beast and goes wild. Even assuming "in control" werewolves (the type who are always in control of their actions, if not always their current form) they're just too different from each other to merit a special relationship that carries over no matter what setting they're in.

I've never thought about vampires and werewolves being related to each other in any way. Always thought WoD was strange in this regard, but then again, they place werewolves as being more powerful than vampires, which runs against what I typically think of the power balance between the two.

Which do I prefer: I don't really have a preference. Like I said, I don't see them as having a special relation any more than say, vampires and yetis, werewolves and swamp monsters, or Quetzalcoatl and rapping lightning mephits. That doesn't necessarily mean I'd be opposed to having Aztec gods team up with elementals to stop the blood feud between the League of Mad Scientists and the zombie cyborg dinosaurs, though. It just means that I don't see that particular setup as more desirable than another relationship.

[mikej]

Think Fast: Enemies, in the end they fight over the same food resources.

Why: As mention they fight over the same resources, in a environment were two predators species fight over the same food source there is going to be conflict. The exception between real wolves and a pack of lions is that in most cases these predators are intelligent plus usually evil. Vampires tend to organize themselves into a aristocratic society while werewolves either are loners or build small packs.

Which interaction do you prefer in general: Enemies

Why: I'm a huge fan of underworld and vampires in general, they make cool enemies and even better allies for short periods then the standard betrayal.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Y'all know Underworld was a huge rip-off of White Wolf's World of Darkness, right? (Admittedly they only bothered ripping off about 1.5 settings.)

Think Fast: None.

Why? Because they don't hang around each other. Lycanthropes are mostly unaware of their condition, and so is most everyone else. They don't congregate in "packs" (screw you, Faerûn!). Vampires mostly set themselves up to lord over an area, or else stalk prey in the shadows.

Which interaction do you prefer in general: None in particular, or nothing specific.

Why? Because they don't hang around each other, and represent different types of horror.

[Avilan the Grey]

Y'all know Underworld was a huge rip-off of White Wolf's World of Darkness, right? (Admittedly they only bothered ripping off about 1.5 settings.)

I have to repeat my reaction from when the lawsuit was in the news:
1) Not really and
2) Who cares plus
3) Far funnier that (the ever more pathetic) Laurell K Hamilton felt that they ripped HER off

Anyway

Think fast: Indifferent border lining hostile. Mainly because of being top predators feeding on the same prey.

Which interaction do you prefer in general: feuding, indifferent, or allies? Indifferent, with some fighting and very occasionally allies. See reason above plus if we treat them traditionally their natures are slightly opposite: Vampires are, after being turned, "monsters" 100% of the time. Weres are only monsters when turned and normal humans other times. Which is a much more "Dr Jekyll / Mr Hyde" guilt thing. Vampires would probably consider weres like half-sentien animals with no control over their actions. Weres would consider vampires Monsters (and themselves as victims).

Now if we don't have the traditional weres or vamps, things are different.

[Kris Strife]

think fast: enemies with vampires as invaders.

Why: Because according to the origional legends werewolves were natures defenders against the unnatural undead horror that is vampirism. (probably why WoD made weres much better at fighting)

Prefered interaction: Various

Why: Because things must change to serve the plot.

[Thinker]

think fast: enemies with vampires as invaders.

Why: Because according to the origional legends werewolves were natures defenders against the unnatural undead horror that is vampirism. (probably why WoD made weres much better at fighting)

Prefered interaction: Various

Why: Because things must change to serve the plot.

What original legends are these? Vampires are often some form of therianthrope or anthropomorph in the earliest legends and as such they fill the same folklore niche. The undead bit is more a feature of Slavic influence on Eastern Europe legends and is not globally very common. Other examples of blood-feeders could be from Mesoamerica.

As to the OP:
Think fast: None.

Why? Werewolves and vampires share many of the same root legends. Generally devouring flesh or blood means you're a bad guy, while turning into an animal (or taking on an animal's properties) does not. They are not mutually exclusive.

Which interaction do you prefer in general: feuding, indifferent, or allies? Indifference.

Why? If you are going to have a society of werewolves and a society of vampires, they could easily be indifferent. If these are monstrous vampires (i.e. have to feed on humans), that could bring them into conflict with those who can change shape because the shapechangers could be on the menu. Same goes for monstrous werewolves and vampires. I guess it really depends on which vampires and werewolves you are talking about.

Sorry for the rambling.

[Piedmon_Sama]

Think Fast: Uh, uh, uh.... I have no idea?

Why: I've never used Werewolves or Vampires in a game setting, and never even attempted to write a story about Werewolves (not interested in the concept).

Preferred Interaction: Indifference.

Why: It makes the most sense, unless you're doing a conspiracy setup where Vampires secretly run the world. Both have everything to lose if they're discovered by humans, which means the main focus of both would be keeping a low profile.

[Evil DM Mark3]

Why: Because according to the origional legends werewolves were natures defenders against the unnatural undead horror that is vampirism. (probably why WoD made weres much better at fighting)

The origins of werewolf and vampire legends (or at least the forms that you are likely to recognise, monsters that drink your blood are VERY common in mythology the globe over what with the whole obvious blood=life metaphor and humans going bestial is, if anything, even more common.) are the very same. And they are both monsters. The idea of werewolves fighting vampires is almost entirely a modern creation.

[Kris Strife]

It was something that I came across while doing research on vampires for English. (I'd picked Dracula as my book choice) as it was over 4 years ago and the book is in another state, I cant give you a bibliography reference, but I believe it was called 'The Complete Guide to Vampires' or something similar. It was in the refrence section of the school library and went over traditional folklore, movies, etc.

[Xallace]

Think fast: Competing for resources! Let the battle begin!

Why? Barring certain exceptions, both are top-of-the-chain predators competing for the same source of food; but more than that, their source of food is also their source of reproduction. Humans being such a gigantic necessity for both species means that they will go out of their way to run the opposing force from the area, be it death or otherwise.

Which interaction do you prefer in general: Allies!

Why? Well you said "in general," and I like people to be friends... oh, did you mean specifically between the vampires and the lycanthropes (or therionthropes if we're gonna get global)? As was said above, violently competing for us. Don't we feel special?

As a side note, does anyone else feel that vampires are very much like sharks? I could see "shark-ify-ing" vampires making them pretty cool. Multiple rows of teeth (which also grow back quite quickly), ability to smell fresh blood from a mile away, ability to pinpoint nearby creatures via electric sensors, nature's perfect predator... I'm gonna go use that now. For something.

[Tsotha-lanti]

Why: Because according to the origional legends werewolves were natures defenders against the unnatural undead horror that is vampirism. (probably why WoD made weres much better at fighting)

lolwut

According to the "original legends," werewolves were witches or evil men who dressed in the skin of a wolf and thereby assumed the shape of a wolf, then performed evil deeds. The legends are, locationally, pretty much separate from East European vampire legends (or, indeed, anything else that might be called "vampires," like the Vrykolakas; "vampire," of course, is a modern cognate used to refer to a bunch of entirely separate and unrelated mythical creatures).

As a side note, does anyone else feel that vampires are very much like sharks? I could see "shark-ify-ing" vampires making them pretty cool. Multiple rows of teeth (which also grow back quite quickly), ability to smell fresh blood from a mile away, ability to pinpoint nearby creatures via electric sensors, nature's perfect predator... I'm gonna go use that now. For something.

X Days of Night (I forget the film's name) did it, and it sucked.

[AngelSword]

As a side note, does anyone else feel that vampires are very much like sharks? I could see "shark-ify-ing" vampires making them pretty cool. Multiple rows of teeth (which also grow back quite quickly), ability to smell fresh blood from a mile away, ability to pinpoint nearby creatures via electric sensors, nature's perfect predator... I'm gonna go use that now. For something.

And now, I must throw a vampire shark at my party. They will hate me, and you will be to blame!

[lisiecki]

Why: Because according to the origional legends werewolves were natures defenders against the unnatural undead horror that is vampirism. (probably why WoD made weres much better at fighting)

The origins of Werewolves was stated before.
(its worth nothing that i have never heard of any type of "myth" that includes vampires AND werewolves)

Im not sure what else WW could have done with a game about traditional werewolves "Hey, you skin wolves, you turn in to a wolf, way to go"
Or a game about Wolfmen of the 1930s verity
"you turn in to a wolfman, you have no control over anything you do, ever"


Of corse i could be wrong, there are plenty of posters around here with IQ scores so high there actually fictional you could ask

Or im sure there's some one around here who will say they have levels of Rangers: Favored Foe Undead, in there real life

http://www.amazon.com/Vampire-Comple.../dp/0140238018 ?

[Collin152]

And now, I must throw a vampire shark at my party. They will hate me, and you will be to blame!

So, what, they invert the running water weakness? Die in the air?

[Aquillion]

Part of the problem is that while Vampires have a fairly specific ur-source that defines their setting (Dracula, with all variations from that being "our vampires are different", often with the difference from Dracula explicitly stated), there is no real useful ur-source for werewolves. Huge chunks of the modern werewolf genre were simply invented whole-cloth for the WoD. Obviously, if you follow that you know your answer already, but if you don't there's not really one archetypal werewolf you can point to for answers to your werewolf questions.

I've always kind of hated how WoD buffed werewolves into this huge threat to everything. Werewolves strike me as relatively weak creatures in the scale of supernatural things -- before WoD you rarely saw them having that much beyond some unnatural resiliency and more cunning than a typical animal (although, generally, their bloodlust makes them stupider than a human.)

Werewolves and vampires don't have much to do with each other, when you get down to it. It's a kind of stupid ZOMG NINJAS VS PIRATES sort of thing to use them in the same setting, despite how popular it's gotten recently. Why not Vampires vs. Mummies? Werewolves vs. Ghosts? Vampires vs. Frankenstein's Monster?

I'd say an adventure that focuses on interesting, well-defined vampires or werewolves is better than one that throws everything but the kitchen sink in and tries to use both.

[vicente408]

So, what, they invert the running water weakness? Die in the air?

Dying in the air makes sense, seeing as they have gills and all.

[Collin152]

Why not Vampires vs. Mummies? Werewolves vs. Ghosts? Vampires vs. Frankenstein's Monster?

Mummies: Ethnocentric and few and far between. There aren't many mummies, they don't all come from the dead, and they certainly aren't going to be any more made.

Ghosts: Incorporeality makes it unfair. And harder to work out.

Frankenstein's Monster: There's, like, one of him, maybe a few more, but not much more than that.


The thing that links Vampires and Werewolves is that both can add to their forces via biting a human.

But then... Don't Wendigos do that too?

[monty]

So, what, they invert the running water weakness? Die in the air?

Only if it's "running" air, and they don't have a land speed.

[Collin152]

Only if it's "running" air, and they don't have a land speed.

So a beached Vampire-Shark dies in a light breeze?

[monty]

So a beached Vampire-Shark dies in a light breeze?

Obviously.