Arena Tournament, Round 41: Fannir vs Broken-Stick Ragefire

[Maurkov]

High Ref Maurkov

@stupnick

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I did some research, and you're in luck. These are fiendish spiders. The fiendish template bestows and INT of 3. Here, it says that any creature with an INT of 3 understands at least one language, common if not otherwise noted. I think fiendish creatures should understand infernal, but that's not mentioned in the template, so common it is.

However, I disallow having spiders spin sheets of web as a standard action. Real spiders take hours to build their traps. If you want to argue it, That's cool. I'll explain my reasoning based on RAW and then we'll get Kyeudo. If you don't, I need to inform KoG.

Looks like the question I came to answer has already been answered. Play on.

[stupnick]

Ref's

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yes i would like to argue that...

according to the game it says it's the same as there webbing ability, which is a standard action to use, it produces the same amount of web, and has the same effect. it also has it's area determained by it's size, and personally that's what it can do in 1 action, if it is given time it could lay a trap covering the whole arena...

also why would you need to inform KoG? he should have no idea that they are there, unless he has made an ENORMOUS spot check, as stated DC 20 + ranged modifiers, and at his range i believe it's should have been at least 25 if not more. now with his modifier of +2 that means he has no idea that webs are there w/o reading my spoilers.

ref'in issue going on here

[Maurkov]

High Ref Maurkov

@stupnick

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according to the game it says

Link and quote?

also why would you need to inform KoG?

I believe another ref made an error. If I am wrong, and the web trap is allowed, we can deal with that.

Now then. If you look here, we see that using a special ability is usually a standard action-- not "always", "usually".

Now compare supernatural ability to extraordinary ability:

Supernatural Abilities

Using a supernatural ability is usually a standard action (unless defined otherwise by the ability’s description). Its use cannot be disrupted, does not require concentration, and does not provoke attacks of opportunity.

Extraordinary Abilities

Using an extraordinary ability is usually not an action because most extraordinary abilities automatically happen in a reactive fashion. Those extraordinary abilities that are actions are usually standard actions that cannot be disrupted, do not require concentration, and do not provoke attacks of opportunity.

That "unless defined otherwise" clause is conspicuously missing from the Extraordinary Abilities. They take as long as they take.

Next, I point out the ambiguity of the spider entry. Because of the paragraph breaks, it isn't even clear that the sheet web is part of the Web(Ex) entry.

So that's the wiggle I see in the RAW. Appealing to reality, "An orb web might take 30 minutes to build, but a typical funnel web spider will keep adding to its sheet web for days or weeks."

Now lets ask Kyeudo to take a look.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

Alright, it apears that Stupnick has been acting on some false information. Most of the match has proceeded on illegal actions.

To be specific: Web-spinning spiders do not spin sheet webs as standard actions. Such an action takes too long to be within the scope of a summon spell(as all that came with the creature disapears when the spell left, including webbing).

We are rewinding back to here:

i finish casting my spell and move out of your LOS at the Z line to the north, so the last place you see me is Z7, then i step behind the building

actions

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Summon fiendish web spinner small monstrous spider in Z6, i will be in Z5.
The spider will cover Y7/8 & Z7/8 with web, DC 20 spot check to notice.

stats

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Location: Z5
HP: 8
AC: 15 T: 10 F: 15
Turn Attempts 4
Spells:
0-Cure Minor Wounds x3
1-Summon Monster 1x2
1D-Summon Monster 1

Spider 1- 1/8 rounds
1d8+2 (6 hp)
30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft.
14 (+1 size, +3 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 11
+0/-6
Bite +4 melee (1d4+1d6cold plus poison DC12 1d3str)
Darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits, cold subtype
Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +0
Str 11, Dex 17, Con 14, Int Ø, Wis 10, Cha 2
Climb +13, Hide +11*, Jump 0*, Spot +4*
Weapon Finesse
Web

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Web (Ex)
Both types of monstrous spiders often wait in their webs or in trees, then lower themselves silently on silk strands and leap onto prey passing beneath. A single strand is strong enough to support the spider and one creature of the same size. Web-spinners can throw a web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst it with a Strength check. Both are standard actions whose DCs are given in the table below. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.

Web-spinners often create sheets of sticky webbing from 5 to 60 feet square, depending on the size of the spider. They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing gain a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5-foot section has the hit points given on the table, and sheet webs have damage reduction 5/—.

A monstrous spider can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web.
Escape Artist DC12 Break DC16 HP4

your go

Stupnick can redo his action and we will continue from there.

[stupnick]

@ref's

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yes i would prefer to get more opinions on this as it is not defined by the monsters entry.

In the description of the creature

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Web (Ex)
Both types of monstrous spiders often wait in their webs or in trees, then lower themselves silently on silk strands and leap onto prey passing beneath. A single strand is strong enough to support the spider and one creature of the same size. Web-spinners can throw a web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst it with a Strength check. Both are standard actions whose DCs are given in the table below. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.

Web-spinners often create sheets of sticky webbing from 5 to 60 feet square, depending on the size of the spider. They usually position these sheets to snare flying creatures but can also try to trap prey on the ground. Approaching creatures must succeed on a DC 20 Spot check to notice a web; otherwise they stumble into it and become trapped as though by a successful web attack. Attempts to escape or burst the webbing gain a +5 bonus if the trapped creature has something to walk on or grab while pulling free. Each 5-foot section has the hit points given on the table, and sheet webs have damage reduction 5/—.

A monstrous spider can move across its own web at its climb speed and can pinpoint the location of any creature touching its web.

it says shooting them is similiar to an attack with a net. but says nothing of placing them on the ground. one would assume that it would take the same amount of time to shoot that at a square of coverage. now since it says that they can entangle a create 1 size large, i would rule that the amount of webbing that is produce per shot/coverage would be the size of that creature

Tiny -5x5 since they can do small.
Small -5x10, but since it's sq'rd.. it would be either 5x5 or 10x5 (might have to adjust the coverage area) since they can cover medium creatures
Medium -10x10 since they can cover large creatures
Large -15x15 since they can do huge
Huge -20x20 since they can do Gargantuan
Gargantuan -40x40 since they can do Colossal
Colossal -60x60 since that's where it tops out.

now that stretches the limit from 5ft sq to 60ft sq, and follows the entry.

also now you will want to look, a small spider can do let's say 5x5 so that means in 1 day it can cover 200ft total. now for a creature the size of a small dog that would be a good equivalent.

Now if you want to go down in size, a normal everyday spider is fine sized, using these rules, they could cover 8/25ths of a square. since a diminutive creature is 1/25 of a square. which means about 6in-12in sq in 1 day.. which is a very close real life equivalent...

@refs #2

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can we not rewind, if you decide that no, they can not place traps, then we can just say the webbing isn't on the ground and it didn't take 1 of there web shootings.. and continue from there. now i know where he is and my spiders can charge him and shoot web at him to trap him.

[Kyeudo]

GM Kyeudo

1st, I read the complete discription of the spider. The webbing attacks similarity to a net has nothing to do with the discussion of the spider. Your assumptions also have no bearing. The spider can not spin sheet webs in the match.

2nd, we rewind by default. The changes in your actions because the spider was not setting traps most definately will alter the course of the map and likely the outcome. If KoG wants to continue sans traps, that could be allowed.

[stupnick]

i will be restarting from round 2. i will post those actions w/in an hour, just have to drive to work.

[stupnick]

Round 2 Rewind

i finish casting my spell and move out of your LOS at the Z line to the north, so the last place you see me is Z7, then i step behind the building

actions

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I summon a spider in Z6, then I take a double move to Z2.
to the spider "protect me till i command otherwise"
the spider will move to Z3 in support.

stats

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Location: Z5
HP: 8
AC: 15 T: 10 F: 15
Turn Attempts 4
Spells:
0-Cure Minor Wounds x3
1-Summon Monster 1x2
1D-Summon Monster 1

Spider 1- 1/8 rounds
1d8+2 (6 hp)
30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft.
14 (+1 size, +3 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 11
+0/-6
Bite +4 melee (1d4+1d6cold plus poison DC12 1d3str)
Darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits, cold subtype
Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +0
Str 11, Dex 17, Con 14, Int Ø, Wis 10, Cha 2
Climb +13, Hide +11*, Jump 0*, Spot +4*
Weapon Finesse
Web

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Web (Ex)
Both types of monstrous spiders often wait in their webs or in trees, then lower themselves silently on silk strands and leap onto prey passing beneath. A single strand is strong enough to support the spider and one creature of the same size. Web-spinners can throw a web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst it with a Strength check. Both are standard actions whose DCs are given in the table below. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.

Escape Artist DC12 Break DC16 HP4

your go

you are still in your starting square, where you had your bow in your hand.

[King_of_GRiffins]

Thank you for the reminder, and you should be sure to double check your spoiler tags before you post. I'll do my best to ignore it.

Actions:

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Double move: From D11 to B6 to D2

Stats:

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Hp: 10/10
AC: Full AC 16, Flat-Footed 14, Touch 12 (+4 Armor, +2 Dex)

+2 to Bluff, Listen, Spot, Sense Motive and Survival Checks against humans, +2 to damage rolls

Done.

[stupnick]

ty : )

actions

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casting another spell.

spider will ready an action to web him, and the spider has tremor sense so he will know if he is w/in 60ft of our position.

stats

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Location: Z2
HP: 8
AC: 15 T: 10 F: 15
Turn Attempts 4
Spells:
0-Cure Minor Wounds x3
1-Summon Monster 1x2
1D-Summon Monster 1

Spider 1- 2/8 rounds
1d8+2 (6 hp)
30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft.
14 (+1 size, +3 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 11
+0/-6
Bite +4 melee (1d4+1d6cold plus poison DC12 1d3str)
Darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits, cold subtype
Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +0
Str 11, Dex 17, Con 14, Int Ø, Wis 10, Cha 2
Climb +13, Hide +11*, Jump 0*, Spot +4*
Weapon Finesse
Web

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Web (Ex)
Both types of monstrous spiders often wait in their webs or in trees, then lower themselves silently on silk strands and leap onto prey passing beneath. A single strand is strong enough to support the spider and one creature of the same size. Web-spinners can throw a web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst it with a Strength check. Both are standard actions whose DCs are given in the table below. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.

Escape Artist DC12 Break DC16 HP4

your go

[King_of_GRiffins]

No problem.

Actions:

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Taking a 5-foot step to D1 and calling for LOS

Stats:

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Hp: 10/10
AC: Full AC 16, Flat-Footed 14, Touch 12 (+4 Armor, +2 Dex)

+2 to Bluff, Listen, Spot, Sense Motive and Survival Checks against humans, +2 to damage rolls

Waiting for Ref before continuing.

[SamTheCleric]

High Ref Sam

@KoG:

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You see him at Z2, he has cover relative to you.

@Stupnick

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You see him at D1.

[Maurkov]

High Ref Maurkov

@stupnick

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No LoS.

You have to choose which spell you're casting when you being casting. I know you've pretty much only got SMI's prepared, but it helps the poor overworked refs.

@KoG

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No LoS.

[King_of_GRiffins]

Refs:

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So.... We have two different conclusions here. Which one should I be paying attention to?

[stupnick]

two different LOS checks from two ref's both with different things..LOL this is interesting...

also
@ref's

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sorry, i figured since it was the only spell mem'd it would be obvious. but i will list

[Maurkov]

High Ref Maurkov

I was ninja'd by KoG (and Sam). Sam's call is correct.

[SamTheCleric]

Ninja Ref to the Rescue!

[King_of_GRiffins]

Alright then

Actions:
Continuing Move to I1

Taking a shot at Fannir.

Attack - (1d20+3)[9]
Damage - (1d8+2)[6]

Stats:

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Hp: 10/10
AC: Full AC 16, Flat-Footed 14, Touch 12 (+4 Armor, +2 Dex)

+2 to Bluff, Listen, Spot, Sense Motive and Survival Checks against humans, +2 to damage rolls
19 Arrows remaining (+1 recoverable on 50% if a miss; Calling low- (1d100)[2] )

Done

[stupnick]

you lose sight of me again

actions

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a Small Fiendish Viper appears in Z4.
i take a 5 ft step to Z3 and begin casting my spell from the scroll
the spider will 5ft step to z2 and hide (1d20+15)[34]

both vermin will ready actions to attack him if he comes close. the spider will web him if he is w/in 30 feet and reachable. the snake will move to attack him next round.

Stats

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Location: Z3
HP: 8
AC: 15 T: 10 F: 15
Turn Attempts 2
Spells:
0-Cure Minor Wounds x3
1-Summon Monster 1x2
1D-Summon Monster 1

Spider1- 3/8 rounds

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1d8+2 (6 hp)
30 ft. (6 squares), climb 20 ft.
14 (+1 size, +3 Dex), touch 14, flat-footed 11
+0/-6
Bite +4 melee (1d4+1d6cold plus poison DC12 1d3str)
Darkvision 60 ft., tremorsense 60 ft., vermin traits, cold subtype
Fort +2, Ref +3, Will +0
Str 11, Dex 17, Con 14, Int Ø, Wis 10, Cha 2
Climb +13, Hide +11*, Jump 0*, Spot +4*
Weapon Finesse
Web

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Web (Ex)
Both types of monstrous spiders often wait in their webs or in trees, then lower themselves silently on silk strands and leap onto prey passing beneath. A single strand is strong enough to support the spider and one creature of the same size. Web-spinners can throw a web eight times per day. This is similar to an attack with a net but has a maximum range of 50 feet, with a range increment of 10 feet, and is effective against targets up to one size category larger than the spider. An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst it with a Strength check. Both are standard actions whose DCs are given in the table below. The check DCs are Constitution-based, and the Strength check DC includes a +4 racial bonus.

Escape Artist DC12 Break DC16 HP4

Snake1 -1/8
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm#viperSnake

your go

[King_of_GRiffins]

Awww, but don't you want to come out and play?

Action:

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Moving to J7, requesting LOS

Stats:

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Hp: 10/10
AC: Full AC 16, Flat-Footed 14, Touch 12 (+4 Armor, +2 Dex)

+2 to Bluff, Listen, Spot, Sense Motive and Survival Checks against humans, +2 to damage rolls
19 Arrows remaining, Unbroken on Z2

Calling in the refs once more.

[SamTheCleric]

The line of sight train pulls into the station...

@KoG

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No LoS

@Stupnick

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No LoS.

[King_of_GRiffins]

Further Actions

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Double Move to O9

Stats:

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Hp: 10/10
AC: Full AC 16, Flat-Footed 14, Touch 12 (+4 Armor, +2 Dex)

+2 to Bluff, Listen, Spot, Sense Motive and Survival Checks against humans, +2 to damage rolls
19 Arrows remaining, Unbroken on Z2

Done.

[stupnick]

ref please

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i ask my spider, who understands common, if he is within 60ft, and if so point to the direction. he has tremor sense.

[SamTheCleric]

Need some clarification.

@stupnick:

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Where is your spider?

[stupnick]

@Sam

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he is located in Z2, which means he has tremor sense out to the N line. and down to the 14 line as well..

[SamTheCleric]

@Stupnick

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Your spider looks towards the southwest

[stupnick]

Actions

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finishing casting my spell (1d3)[2] scorpions appear in Z7, Z8, Z9 respectively.
they will charge him.

i tell both my viper and spider to charge him as well
i begin casting another summon monster spell

post again in a second.. seeing results of a roll

[stupnick]

2 scorpions appear in Z7 and Z8, both small sized.

Looking right at you, they charge you (if able, will get a ref to clarify this)

Scorpion1
(1d20+3)[13]
(1d3-1)[2] min 1
if that hits, grapple roll
(1d20-4)[12] (it's 1d20+bab+str mod, so 1d20+6 for you)
and if that wins
you take (1d3-1)[0] min 1 more damage

Scorpion2
(1d20+3)[8]
(1d3-1)[0] min 1
if that hits, grapple roll
(1d20-4)[-1] (it's 1d20+bab+str mod, so 1d20+6 for you)
and if that wins
you take (1d3-1)[2] min 1 more damage

You then see a small snake slither out around the corner ending in U7

Then a spider comes crawling around the corner ending in X7 and launches webbing at you,
Ranged Touch - (1d20+4)[24]
-2 if in W or V
-4 if in T or U
-6 if in R or S
-8 if in P or Q
-10 if in N or O

stats

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Location: Z3
HP: 8
AC: 15 T: 10 F: 15
Turn Attempts 2
Spells:
0-Cure Minor Wounds x3
1-Summon Monster 1x2
1D-Summon Monster 1

Spider1- 4/8 rounds 6hp
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/monstrousSpider.htm
Augment Summoning and Beckon The Frost (+4str/con +1d6 Cold)

Snake1 -2/8 6hp
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/snake.htm#viperSnake
Augment Summoning and Beckon The Frost (+4str/con +1d6 Cold)

Scorpion1 -1/3 6hp
Scorption2 -1/3 6hp
http://www.d20srd.org/srd/monsters/m...usScorpion.htm

your go

[stupnick]

since the net hit you, auto hit with a nat 20...

you are entangled

Entangled
The character is ensnared. Being entangled impedes movement, but does not entirely prevent it unless the bonds are anchored to an immobile object or tethered by an opposing force. An entangled creature moves at half speed, cannot run or charge, and takes a -2 penalty on all attack rolls and a -4 penalty to Dexterity. An entangled character who attempts to cast a spell must make a Concentration check (DC 15 + the spell’s level) or lose the spell.

An entangled creature can escape with a successful Escape Artist check or burst it with a Strength check. Both are standard actions whose DCs are given in the table below.

Escape Artist DC12 Break DC16

whether you can move or not when entangled by a spider, it is up to the ref's

[King_of_GRiffins]

Good job there on the reveal. Perhaps I should ask you for tips later for my Psionic Shaper?

Currently, I'm in O9. I don't think your scorpions have enough movement to make the charge from Z. I'll let you decide what they're doing or determime if they can make it before doing anything.