Beating Batman: Sir Giacomo's Guide to Monks

[Oslecamo]

No. More to the point, material components are a stupid rule, based on a set of really lame inside jokes from first edition, that deserves to be ignored. Why do you think virtually nobody ever kept track of components for the past three editions?

It doesn't matter it's stupid. It's still a rule. I think natural spell is stupid as hell, but hey, that doesn't stop dire bears who shoot lighting from their asses to go around there does it?

So, just like the wizard can instantly take out his necessary component out of his handy pouch, the monk can take out a special nonmagical reagent that will help to set off the item from his dandy UMD pouch.

Aside from that, nobody has been able to adequately explain how an "UMD tool" should work, and the inference that since some skills have masterwork tools available, therefore all skills have such tools, is a fallacy to begin with.

When you can "adequatily" explain how a nonmagical character can swim in lava and come out alive we'll discuss an "adequate" UMD tool. Aka, a nonwizard did it.

EDIT:Anyway, I don't undersant why all this hate against the UMD tool. Everybody is fine with caster combos, but when a noncaster combo apears,
it's clearly an hellish nonsense idea that will break the game the entire game and the fun for everybody.

No wonder casters are so imba in 3.5, if any noncaster combo that apears gets smited like this.

So, if we the monk can't even use RAW to fight, what's he suposed to do? Spend three days screaming at the top of his lungs and pray his hair turns golden?

[Solo]

When you can "adequatily" explain how a nonmagical character can swim in lava and come out alive we'll discuss an "adequate" UMD tool. Aka, a nonwizard did it.

You can't swim in lava, it's far too dense.

[Kurald Galain]

I
EDIT:Anyway, I don't undersant why all this hate against the UMD tool. Everybody is fine with caster combos, but when a noncaster combo apears,
it's clearly an hellish nonsense idea that will break the game the entire game and the fun for everybody.

You're missing the point here. People aren't saying that there shouldn't be an UMD tool, people are saying that (1) by RAW, there isn't any, and (2) they have difficulty imagining how it should work.

The bottom line is that this tool is just the latest in a long series of nonsensical and made-up arguments that SG is using to defend a decidedly suboptimal and frequently dysfunctional build, that he unilaterally and without any evidence proclaims to be stronger than the consensually determined most powerful class.

Or, to put it in simple language, "SG uses nonsensical arguments. Other people rebuff those arguments with facts". That's what this thread is about. If you're looking for "non-casters need a break", I would recommend visiting the homebrew forum.

[Freelance Henchman]

Behold the fate of the Gonk on his first encounter: YAFGC #740

[Oslecamo]

Or, to put it in simple language, "SG uses nonsensical arguments. Other people rebuff those arguments with facts". That's what this thread is about. If you're looking for "non-casters need a break", I would recommend visiting the homebrew forum.

From the srd:

Tool, Masterwork

This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.

It doesn't say what specific skill it is. So, by RAW, an UMD masterwork tool is indeed possible, since UMD is a skill.

SG is using RAW. You're not.

Otherwise, by your logic, monks can only be affected by magics that specifically target monks, wich means the caster can't touch the monk in anyway. And the caster also can't buff himself, because there are no magics that specifically target clerics, wizards or any other class.

Just like hold monster doesn't say the creatures it can affect include humans, dogs, elfs, fighters lv 12 wich have take power attack, cleave, greater cleave or any other possible combination, masterwork tool doesn't specify any skill simply because there isn't freaking space in the book to put a masterwork tool for every skill out there, so they make a "generic" masterwork tool wich can be used to buff any skill.

[Patashu]

'It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any).'

Does that mean a sufficiently convolutedly described masterwork tool can provide a +2 circumstance bonus to ANY skill check?

[Nebo_]

'It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any).'

Does that mean a sufficiently convolutedly described masterwork tool can provide a +2 circumstance bonus to ANY skill check?

"What's that you've got there"
"It's a thinger"
"What's it do?"
"Things... and stuff. Things and stuff. Want me to show you?"
"Uh... no, thanks"

[Kurald Galain]

From the srd:
[I]
Tool, Masterwork

Yeah, I read that. It's a decent example of rules lawyering on your part but you're still dead wrong. First, it doesn't say anywhere that it applies to each and every skill check. Second, note how many skill checks (including UMD) don't involve tools in the first place. If a skill doesn't use tools, it doesn't benefit from a masterwork tool.

For more information, I'd refer you to a dictionary or wikipedia entry on "tool". Other than that I wish you best of luck in convincing your DM of this particular wonkishness.

[Rutee]

Hint: An argument that boils down to "We don't have a common sense basis, but we do have RAW" is generally not a useful argument. After all, by RAW I can get into a huge orgy of grappling with like 29 other people and we can create a ball that moves at 60 mph or so..

Other Hint: Arguing that UMD should be fully abused by melee so they can be as good as casters is like saying "I want melee to be balanced by one skill which not only serves as merely imitating casters, but that casters can generally use at least as well as I can"

[Eldritch_Ent]

It would also help if they actually specified what this mysterious Use Magic Device.... Device is. I mean, it can't be something lame like... A fake beard that lets you pretend to be a wizard more effectively... Can it?

It would also help even more if Giacamo stopped labeling every disagreement as a "Fallacy", and that everything he says is "proven". It's just not the case, dude.

[Signmaker]

From the srd:

Tool, Masterwork

This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack.

It doesn't say what specific skill it is. So, by RAW, an UMD masterwork tool is indeed possible, since UMD is a skill.

SG is using RAW. You're not.

Otherwise, by your logic, monks can only be affected by magics that specifically target monks, wich means the caster can't touch the monk in anyway. And the caster also can't buff himself, because there are no magics that specifically target clerics, wizards or any other class.

Just like hold monster doesn't say the creatures it can affect include humans, dogs, elfs, fighters lv 12 wich have take power attack, cleave, greater cleave or any other possible combination, masterwork tool doesn't specify any skill simply because there isn't freaking space in the book to put a masterwork tool for every skill out there, so they make a "generic" masterwork tool wich can be used to buff any skill.

"If Any", emphasis mine. Also, as another has stated, "Ficticious Skill-Swiss Knife" could give you +2 to all skill checks, by interpreting the text like you have. Note that a Stone of Good Luck is 20,000 gp, and gives +1 to all Ability Checks, Skill Checks, and Saves. 20,000 is quite a lot, and supposedly, you can get a "+2 to all skill checks" item for 50 gp, and it weighs 1 pound?

Also, you have not addressed the existance of items such as Alchemist's Lab, which provide circumstance bonuses, but have different pricing and weight.

[turkishproverb]

And now RAW is against the rules.

This thread is fun.

"If Any", emphasis mine. Also, as another has stated, "Ficticious Skill-Swiss Knife" could give you +2 to all skill checks, by interpreting the text like you have. Note that a Stone of Good Luck is 20,000 gp, and gives +1 to all Ability Checks, Skill Checks, and Saves. 20,000 is quite a lot, and supposedly, you can get a "+2 to all skill checks" item for 50 gp, and it weighs 1 pound?

Also, you have not addressed the existance of items such as Alchemist's Lab, which provide circumstance bonuses, but have different pricing and weight.

Ahm, don't be like that.

The "IF ANY" clearly applies to "If there is any" skill check to be made (IE: it doesn't apply for speak/reak/write language.) The object would obviously be designed to help with UMD or similar things (Spellcraft, etc?) Not necessarily the one tool being use on every skill.

For UMD/Spellcraft, I imagine it might be something like those goggles from the hellboy 2 preview, allowing people to see more finely attuned details in what needs to be done related to magic.

[Bearonet]

The 50gp mundane goggles will allow you to see magic? Is that honestly your explanation?

I'm not going to rea through the whole thread (seems like it's the same throughout), but:

A masterwork tool gives a +2 bonus on an appropriate skill checks, if any. That meaning "if there is any skill check to be made" would make no sense. It clearly means "if it is appropriate to any skill check."
And what is and isn't appropriate is going to be in the DM's hands.

[marjan]

The "IF ANY" clearly applies to "If there is any" skill check to be made.

If you are simply being sarcastic don't bother reading this.

Otherwise: Where do you get that idea? If there isn't any skill check you can make with the skill, why would there be a need for skill?

[Rutee]

The "IF ANY" clearly applies to "If there is any" skill check to be made (IE: it doesn't apply for speak/reak/write language.) The object would obviously be designed to help with UMD or similar things (Spellcraft, etc?) Not necessarily the one tool being use on every skill.

LANGUAGE DOES NOT WORK THAT WAY.


"Tool, Masterwork

This well-made item is the perfect tool for the job. It grants a +2 circumstance bonus on a related skill check (if any). Bonuses provided by multiple masterwork items used toward the same skill check do not stack."

"Related Skill Check". If it meant "For any skill check ever", they would not have included the qualifier "Related".

[Oslecamo]

Hint: An argument that boils down to "We don't have a common sense basis, but we do have RAW" is generally not a useful argument. After all, by RAW I can get into a huge orgy of grappling with like 29 other people and we can create a ball that moves at 60 mph or so..

This is a fantasy game. Please leave your common sense at the door. Thank you. This is why we bothered to learn the system.

And from a person who once defended martial artists should be able to make cities pop up from the ground with punches, It's kinda funny you claim that a tool wich helps you to control other tools is nonsense.

"If Any", emphasis mine. Also, as another has stated, "Ficticious Skill-Swiss Knife" could give you +2 to all skill checks, by interpreting the text like you have. Note that a Stone of Good Luck is 20,000 gp, and gives +1 to all Ability Checks, Skill Checks, and Saves. 20,000 is quite a lot, and supposedly, you can get a "+2 to all skill checks" item for 50 gp, and it weighs 1 pound?

Also, you have not addressed the existance of items such as Alchemist's Lab, which provide circumstance bonuses, but have different pricing and weight.

Maybe I poorly worded the last part of my sentence. When I said "generic" I meant to say that it can be applied to any skill, but only one skill, chosen when you buy it. The exact details of the tool are left to the DM and player to decide, aka aspect, etc, etc.

"If any" is there precisely to stop this kind of abuse. You could, for example, claim that a masterwork hammer could be used to give bonus on profession:sculpture and profession:blacksmith, but not that it would give you a bonus on jump or listen. Again, it's up to the DM to decide what skills are related to the tool you have chosen or not.

Alchemist's lab, healer's kit, what can I say? WOTC tought those skills where imba, so made worst items to help them. Just like if you compare all spells of a same level, there will be some wich are really good and some wich are really worthless, or how toughness is such a pathetic feat. In 3.X, same price doesn't mean same power.


Kurald Galain: the real world definition of tool is completely irrelevant to this discussion, since no item in D&D reflects his real world counterpart perfectly, and tools are no exception. I need to aks you once again to use RAW in this discussion. The tool gives bonus to related skill checks, no skill exceptions listed. UMD is a skill. There are no holes.

And the wotc forum COs use them all the time, so yeah, people acept it.

[Signmaker]

"Related Skill Check". If it meant "For any skill check ever", they would not have included the qualifier "Related".

Yay, my argument is gaining steam. At least it's something other than "Monks can do this, No they can't, well maybe 50/50, no, you're WRONG!"

My problem at its root isn't really the existance of a UMD-boosting tool; It's one that can work in the midst of battle.

Hm. A mundane item that can tune you in to the realm of magic, at such a pace that it is usable in combat situations, or at least a quick pre-battle buff.

Conundrum.

[Rutee]

This is a fantasy game. Please leave your common sense at the door. Thank you. This is why we bothered to learn the system.

This is why you're on ignore. Fantasy /doesn't/ automatically remove all semblance of common sense for game mechanics. It removes common sense for good reasons for the story, metaphor, parable, or other related things. That was why I said "If all you have is RAW, you got nothing".

And from a person who once defended martial artists should be able to make cities pop up from the ground with punches, It's kinda funny you claim that a tool wich helps you to control other tools is nonsense.

"Leave common sense at the door" from the guy who could not rationalize /any feat accomplished by warriors in fantasy as anything but magic/ is a much higher irony then the one you think you've found.

And the wotc forum COs use them all the time, so yeah, people acept it.

Oh yes, those /kings/ of things that actually see use in games. Hint: I don't care if the forum COs do it.

[Signmaker]

Alchemist's lab, healer's kit, what can I say? WOTC tought those skills where imba, so made worst items to help them. Just like if you compare all spells of a same level, there will be some wich are really good and some wich are really worthless, or how toughness is such a pathetic feat. In 3.X, same price doesn't mean same power.

I don't quite understand what you mean by this. If possible, could you rephrase it?

Anyway, my point was not in Price/Weight equalling worth. It was that Masterwork-equivalent tools exist for certain skills, and have different "Stats" than the generic "Masterwork Tool". What's to stop a person from trying to save a couple hundred GP by buying a "Masterwork Tool: Craft(Alchemy)" rather than an "Alchemist's Lab"? It's situations like these that make me question how solid "Masterwork Tool" is, and if maybe it's just a guideline for the DM, and not the player.

[Kurald Galain]

For UMD/Spellcraft, I imagine it might be something like those goggles from the hellboy 2 preview, allowing people to see more finely attuned details in what needs to be done related to magic.

The goggles! They do nothing!

the real world definition of tool is completely irrelevant to this discussion, since no item in D&D reflects his real world counterpart perfectly,

Like I said, this is a decent attempt at rules lawyering (i.e. twisting language and logic to a ridiculous extent to make a normal sentence say something that doesn't make sense, in the attempt to gain a small bonus for your character), and I wish you best of luck convincing your DM of this particular wonkishness.

And the wotc forum COs use them all the time, so yeah, people acept it.

Just like people accept Pun-pun, the Jumplomancer, and the Mortiverse for use in actual regular campaigns, right?

It's very easy: tools that aren't used for a skill, don't give bonuses for that skill even if masterworked. Likewise, skills that don't use tools don't get bonuses from a masterwork tool.

[turkishproverb]

If you are simply being sarcastic don't bother reading this.

Otherwise: Where do you get that idea? If there isn't any skill check you can make with the skill, why would there be a need for skill?

Speak Language

Read/Write Language.

[Signmaker]

Speak Language

Read/Write Language.

I'm surprised how few people spend skill points on languages, it baffles me. It's fun to see this scenario:

DM: "Ancient runes surround the vile crypt, unable to be read by the party."
Player1: "You sure?"
DM: "Yeah, there's no cleric in the party, I doubt any of you know infernal."
Player3: "I do! Learned it last level!"
DM: *Didn't plan for this*

[Solo]

I'm surprised how few people spend skill points on languages, it baffles me. It's fun to see this scenario:

DM: "Ancient runes surround the vile crypt, unable to be read by the party."
Player1: "You sure?"
DM: "Yeah, there's no cleric in the party, I doubt any of you know infernal."
Player3: "I do! Learned it last level!"
DM: *Didn't plan for this*

Tongues

[Patashu]

Tongues

Hooray for spells that render an entire skill useless!

[Eldritch_Ent]

Tongues

Actually, I thought Tongues only let you speak every language, not read 'em?
What you're looking for is Comprehend Languages- which is a lower level spell anyway. Why waste a perfectly good spell slot on Tongues when a smaller spell will suffice?

[Talic]

Bear in mind for tools. It provides a cost and guideline for tools for any skill, and gives the DM the option to disallow any he feels are outlandish.

D&D has many nonmagical effects that alter or affect magical ones. Iron Heart Surge is a good example. A reasonable thought is a naturally occurring crystal that garbles an item's detection abilities, somewhat. Not enough to overwhelm an item by itself, it must be combined with someone that knows something about bypassing the restrictions that items have.

It's not outlandish, and even if it were, it is up to a DM to disallow it, by text. Not vice versa.

[Solo]

Bear in mind for tools. It provides a cost and guideline for tools for any skill, and gives the DM the option to disallow any he feels are outlandish.

Note: the masterwork tool for Craft (Alchemy) weights 15 pounds.
If there was a masterwork tool for UMD, it could be something a bit heavier than the 1 pound generic Masterwork Tool.

[Talic]

Note: the masterwork tool for Craft (Alchemy) weights 15 pounds.
If there was a masterwork tool for UMD, it could be something a bit heavier than the 1 pound generic Masterwork Tool.

Yes, it could. However, THAT is not outlined in RAW.

[Kurald Galain]

Yes, it could. However, THAT is not outlined in RAW.

Neither is it outlined that all masterwork tools must weigh (and cost) as much as the "generic" one, nor that such tools exist for any and all skills. Those crystals? You're making that up; I don't recall seeing anything like that in any RPG setting or fantasy novel. Indeed, given the tendency of psions to associate themselves with crystals, they would be closer to UPD than to UMD.

[Talic]

Neither is it outlined that all masterwork tools must weigh (and cost) as much as the "generic" one, nor that such tools exist for any and all skills. Those crystals? You're making that up; I don't recall seeing anything like that in any RPG setting or fantasy novel. Indeed, given the tendency of psions to associate themselves with crystals, they would be closer to UPD than to UMD.

That is a line of reasoning or thought to the item.

As is, there is a listed cost and weight for an item that provides a +2 to a skill. It is up to the DM to disallow some skills to be used, if no common sense item can be found, or if another item exists in the book (such as Alchemy).

It would also be within the DM's purview to alter the weight or cost of specific items, but that would be a deviation from RAW. Thus, it has no place here. I will not make any other statements about this, as it is completely irrelevant to the discussion in this thread.

The crystal is made up, true. It is an idea which encompasses a descriptive or fluff reasoning for the crunch, or mechanical benefit, of using a generic tool for UMD. The ability to use it is there, unless disallowed. As this isn't a discussion of what isn't allowed in your home game, but what IS allowed by RAW. As such, you're targeting the wrong section of the rules with your arguments.

The representation of a MW hide tool is often Camo gear. The representation of a MW perform tool is often an intrument. The representation of a MW Move silently tool is often padded shoes.

There are no listings for these specific items in the RAW. But there IS a listing for MW tool, and that is what's being used. The descriptive text? It's there to satisfy plausibility, not legality.